3bbl Electric Control Panel, power concerns.

[P-J]

Thanks P-J, the drawing looks great, I owe you!
I'd definitely prefer to use 2 PIDs instead of 4 though.

To use just two PID's, I would run the SSR's for elements 3&4 from a single PID output 7&8 in parallel, right?
Did we figure out if the panel is allowed to have 4 supply feeds?

A few more things:
The second 5A breaker doesn't go anywhere. Could you please clarify it's purpose? Could I add a contactor and put the pumps on that breaker and leave the PIDs on the other? I'm assuming you put it there for a specific purpose.

Thanks again and everytime!

Ok. I redrew both diagrams so that there will be only 2 PIDs involved. The second 5A breaker has now been eliminated. No need for it at all.

There are 2 diagrams. The first is for the HLT setup and pump control. The second is for the BOIL control. The overall power feed is from 4 - 60A - 240V power feeds plus a seperate breaker for the 120V devices.

As always click on the images to see and save the full scale diagrams that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

HLT & control setup:




BOIL setup:





Wishing you the best.

P-J

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

P-J, I can't thank you enough for the work you put into these schematics. What can i do for you to show my appreciation? A gift cert to you favorite homebrew shop maybe? Just shoot me a private message and I'll take care of it for you.

 

[P-J]

P-J, I can't thank you enough for the work you put into these schematics. What can i do for you to show my appreciation? A gift cert to you favorite homebrew shop maybe? Just shoot me a private message and I'll take care of it for you.

Thanks for the offer but there is no need at all. It pleases me that I can go through the mind jumps when developing a plan. Not bad for an old man.

P-J

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Not bad at all!

 

[The10mmKid]

Old men rule . . . . . . . .

 

[P-J]

Not bad at all!

Thanks for that.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns with your build.

Part sources? More info? Design change? Safety? NEC concerns? Anything?

(Just a little side info about this old man.)
I went to trade school after high school to learn the electricians trade. I got a job with IBM Corp as a technician when I was 19 years old in 1958 when I finished trade school. I retired from them at 65 years old when I gave it all up. I spent many years growing within the company. It was not long when I joined the management team and after a while spent a few years on assignment traveling the world. Including 4 years based in Germany in support of our nation.

I know a little, Scheme a lot & have fun keeping my mind challenged.

By the way, I have stayed current with the National Electrical Code over all of these years.

So, If you need any info on your build, Please ask.

Wishing you the absolute best.

P-J

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Thanks for that.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns with your build.

Part sources? More info? Design change? Safety? NEC concerns? Anything?

(Just a little side info about this old man.)
I went to trade school after high school to learn the electricians trade. I got a job with IBM Corp as a technician when I was 19 years old in 1958 when I finished trade school. I retired from them at 65 years old when I gave it all up. I spent many years growing within the company. It was not long when I joined the management team and after a while spent a few years on assignment traveling the world. Including 4 years based in Germany in support of our nation.

I know a little, Scheme a lot & have fun keeping my mind challenged.

By the way, I have stayed current with the National Electrical Code over all of these years.

So, If you need any info on your build, Please ask.

Wishing you the absolute best.

P-J

What a great story and resume!

I do have a few more things I'd like to integrate into the design of the system but I don't want to put you out. Most of these changes should be simple enough to just wing without a schematic if you don't want to be bothered with it. I'm starting to feel bad for the amount of work you've put in. You say you have fun keeping your mind challenged so I suppose I'll just put them out there for you to decide if you want to work on them or not. Please do not feel obligated, you have already put in more work than I even feel comfortable asking of someone. It's a lot of effort and I know I'm over-reaching.

With that said, here they are:
It would probably be a good idea to add a side mount Liquid Level Control Switch to each tank to protect the elements by not allowing power until after the elements have been submersed. I could be wrong but it looks like the float switches could be wired in series from output #7 on the PIDs before it is distributed to the 4 SSRs for each tank.

It would also be convenient to add a Liquid Level Resistance Pump-Down Sensor to one of the pump circuits for vorlaufing. We could replace the On/Off with a 3 position On/Off/On for Manual/off/Auto. I found this one used for $32, the unit is DIN mountable.
http://www.kimcontrols.com/item/LNC00DLA441
Perhaps the pump circuit should be on it's own designated breaker? The March pump AC-5SSB-MD has a 2.2A load and in some cases two pumps will be in use at the same time. http://www.pumpbiz.com/shopping_product_detail.asp?pid=74080#tabs

Lastly (maybe not), a timer with a buzzer and reset switch. The beer timer from Auberins seems like a good choice.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=356

I still have concerns about having more then one supply feed entering a single panel. Does NEC code allow for this? Either way I'd like to separate the controls panel from the power panel(s).

Thank you so very much. I truly wish you the very best as well.
Regards,
Charles
Feel free to email me if you prefer: [email protected]

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

P-J, the schematic diagram you made shows all the neutrals tied together for the contactors. Since each tank will require 2 60a Breakers, I would assume that the neutrals from Boil contactors 1&2 would go to supply feed #1's neutral and neutrals from Boil contactors 3&4 would go to supply feed #2's neutral and so on, am I correct?

Also, I've started putting together a parts list, I don't know where to get some of the components though. I've basically split the order between Auberins an ebrewsupply so far.
This will act as my buy link so I'll continually update this until all parts are included and sourced for the panels.

1- NEMA SS Enclosure "Control panel"
2- NEMA Enclosures "Power Panels"
2- Aubernins PID SYL-2352 $45.50ea
2- Tri-Clamp Liquid tight RTD Sensor $56.00ea
1- Auberins Timer JSL-73 $42.32ea
8- 220v 40a, 110v Coil, Contactor $13.50ea
1- Mini Power Relay SPDT 120V 30A $8.97
2- Large Heat sinks $55.00ea
8- SSR's 40a &12.00ea
8- 30a DIN mount breakers $11.00ea
1- 10a DIN mount breaker $13.65ea
1- 5a DIN mount breaker $6.99ea
1- Keyed 2-way 1 NO Contact, Switch $4.50
3- Push button, NO Contact $3.50ea
1- Auberins Emergency Stop (E-Stop) Switch, 22mm $6.99ea
1- 3-Way, 2 NO Contact, Switch $4.50ea
1- 2-Way, 1 NO Contact, Switch $3.50ea
1- Selector Switch, 3-Position Momentary 2 NO, 22mm $5.99ea
2- Selector Switch, 2-Position Maintained 2 NO, 22mm $5.99ea
6- 110v 22m LED $3.00ea
1- Flashing Buzzer $5.00ea
2- Liquid level float switches

 

[P-J]

P-J, the schematic diagram you made shows all the neutrals tied together for the contactors. Since each tank will require 2 60a Breakers, I would assume that the neutrals from Boil contactors 1&2 would go to supply feed #1's neutral and neutrals from Boil contactors 3&4 would go to supply feed #2's neutral and so on, am I correct?

...

The neutral is only needed and used for the Control circuits. All of the control circuits would reside in the control panel. The Contactors would reside in the associated power panel with the control wiring being delivered from the control panel.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[The10mmKid]

Rad, you can try here for your enclosures:

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Enclosures/Metal

I highly recommend and you may find everything you need there.

Good stuff!

'da Kid

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

The neutral is only needed and used for the Control circuits. All of the control circuits would reside in the control panel. The Contactors would reside in the associated power panel with the control wiring being delivered from the control panel. I hope this makes sense.

Haha, it didn't make sense until I read through what you wrote about three times, then I realized. Thanks for the clarification.

Rad, you can try here for your enclosures: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Enclosures/Metal I highly recommend and you may find everything you need there. Good stuff! 'da Kid

Thanks, I'll check them out this evening.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

P-J, 'da Kid, processhead or anyone else with superior skills that may be reading this,
Please look over these drawings I made from cutting, pasting and adding to P-J's drawings. I separated the control panel wiring from the 2 Power panels and added in the additional design features. I'm not sure if I have everything setup correctly. Here is a link to both the Resistance Sensor and the Timer if you would like to look at the specs. I should probably add a bypass switch at the float switch in the event that they ever act up. I'm anxiously awaiting your feedback. Cheers!

ATTENTION, The below may look like P-J drawings but I can assure you they are not, therefore they may contain SERIOUS mistakes. It is being posted so that it may be checked for correctness only. Please do not attempt to build these panels as shown, they may not function or worse. You've been warned.

EDIT I have removed the diagrams from this post because I found a small design flaw. I'm am also making two additions to the power panels. The updates will be added to the most current post.
Thank you,
RAD

 

[P-J]

P-J, 'da Kid, processhead or anyone else with superior skills that may be reading this,
Please look over these drawings I made from cutting, pasting and adding to P-J's drawings. I separated the control panel wiring from the 2 Power panels and added in the additional design features. I'm not sure if I have everything setup correctly. Here is a link to both the Resistance Sensor and the Timer if you would like to look at the specs. I should probably add a bypass switch at the float switch in the event that they ever act up. I'm anxiously awaiting your feedback. Cheers!

ATTENTION, The below may look like P-J drawings but I can assure you they are not, therefore they may contain SERIOUS mistakes. It is being posted so that it may be checked for correctness only. Please do not attempt to build these panels as shown, they may not function or worse. You've been warned.

Looks great to me. Good job. I believe that the 2 fuses shown in the controller diagram are no longer needed with your choice of the 5A breaker protection.

P-J

 

[The10mmKid]

Almost there!

Rad, you may need some heavy terminal blocks for the 60A feed/split.
I don't see two #4 wires fitting into the first 30A DIN mounted breaker . . . could be wrong. The terminal blocks are cheap.

Rad, P-J,
I have a real concern and years of experience with SSR's failing. Usually shorting 'ON'. May not happen in our low usage environment at home, yet we are also not purchasing 'top-of-line' SSR's nor are we dissipating heat as efficiently.

P-J, would you favor Rad going back to your GFCI E-Stop trip circuit now that the power and control are separate?
An E-Stop on each panel.

Looks good Rad,
'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

Distribution block:

'da Kid

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...,_UL_Recognized,_175A-760A_(PB_Series)/PB1042

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Almost there! Rad, you may need some heavy terminal blocks for the 60A feed/split. I don't see two #4 wires fitting into the first 30A DIN mounted breaker . . . could be wrong. The terminal blocks are cheap. Rad, P-J, I have a real concern and years of experience with SSR's failing. Usually shorting 'ON'. May not happen in our low usage environment at home, yet we are also not purchasing 'top-of-line' SSR's nor are we dissipating heat as efficiently. P-J, would you favor Rad going back to your GFCI E-Stop trip circuit now that the power and control are separate? An E-Stop on each panel. Looks good Rad, 'da Kid

Hey Kid,
I have do have intentions of using distribution blocks for splitting the 60a feeds to their 30a DIN breakers. I'll make that revision on the final draft, Thanks for the reminder. Actually, I might just get the ones you posted.
As for the SSRs failing, does it matter since the E-stop it opening the contactors not the SSRs, unless that's what you meant?

As for the "Almost there", I agree!!! I feel like so long as the circuits look correct, I'm about one revision away from the final draft. P-J really helped me wrap my head around it, then I was able to pick it up from there. I'm still no P-J.

You guys have been a great help.
Thanks.

 

[jeffmeh]

Hey Kid,
I have do have intentions of using distribution blocks for splitting the 60a feeds to their 30a DIN breakers. I'll make that revision on the final draft, Thanks for the reminder. Actually, I might just get the ones you posted.
As for the SSRs failing, does it matter since the E-stop it opening the contactors not the SSRs, unless that's what you meant?

As for the "Almost there", I agree!!! I feel like so long as the circuits look correct, I'm about one revision away from the final draft. P-J really helped me wrap my head around it, then I was able to pick it up from there. I'm still no P-J.

You guys have been a great help.
Thanks.

Many designs put a two-pole, normally open contactor before each element, run both hot lines through it, and put an on/off switch on the panel, to control the contactor coil. It allows you to use a switch to know that "off means off," even if the contactor fails in the closed position. It's a very reasonable additional safety margin.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Many designs put a two-pole, normally open contactor before each element, run both hot lines through it, and put an on/off switch on the panel, to control the contactor coil. It allows you to use a switch to know that "off means off," even if the contactor fails in the closed position. It's a very reasonable additional safety margin.

They are already in the design. I'm not using the leak current GFCI method. Thanks

 

[The10mmKid]

Hey Kid,
I have do have intentions of using distribution blocks for splitting the 60a feeds to their 30a DIN breakers. I'll make that revision on the final draft, Thanks for the reminder. Actually, I might just get the ones you posted.
As for the SSRs failing, does it matter since the E-stop it opening the contactors not the SSRs, unless that's what you meant?

As for the "Almost there", I agree!!! I feel like so long as the circuits look correct, I'm about one revision away from the final draft. P-J really helped me wrap my head around it, then I was able to pick it up from there. I'm still no P-J.

You guys have been a great help.
Thanks.

We're on the same page, just a different paragraph.
I wasn't sure if you intended to E-Stop the entire system or do each panel independently. The circuit as drawn will open the heater contactors, so you're good for stopping an overtemp fault condition.

Some other thoughts:
Dont make your panels so tight you can't comfortably work in them. There will be situations where you may be working around live circuits inside.

Use multi strand wire in the cabinet. A lot easier to work with. MTW is what we like to use. You'll probably be bringing THHN over from the main panel, but that crap is stiff.

Find out also about dissipating the heat from the SSR's. You have a lot of VA (watts) rushing through there. We don't design and build many panels at work, but sure work in many.

Can't think of anything else at the moment,
'da Kid

 

[jeffmeh]

They are already in the design. I'm not using the leak current GFCI method. Thanks

Indeed it is. Your PID Power switch cuts power to the PIDs and all of the elements through contactors. Very nice. Carry on.

 

[jeffmeh]

If I read it correctly, if you were to move the contactors in the 240v panels to between the circuit breakers and the SSRs, you would only have hot lines to the contactor line terminals when you have the panel off. As it stands, you would have hot lines both to the contactor line terminals and the SSR line terminals. Probably not a big deal, but something to consider.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Looks great to me. Good job. I believe that the 2 fuses shown in the controller diagram are no longer needed with your choice of the 5A breaker protection.

P-J

I revisited the diagram, I can do without the 5a and 1a fast blow. Without your above post I wouldn't have even looked back, so a BIG thank you for that.
I'm going to add a bypass switch and indicator light to the SSR / float switch circuit and then the design is complete and finished!

If I read it correctly, if you were to move the contactors in the 240v panels to between the circuit breakers and the SSRs, you would only have hot lines to the contactor line terminals when you have the panel off. As it stands, you would have hot lines both to the contactor line terminals and the SSR line terminals. Probably not a big deal, but something to consider.

The SSR's, contactors, relay for the pumps, basically everything goes open as soon as the E-stop is pushed. The E-Stop cuts the power to the PID's, they power the SSR's. Everything is dead with a push of that button.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

If I read it correctly, if you were to move the contactors in the 240v panels to between the circuit breakers and the SSRs, you would only have hot lines to the contactor line terminals when you have the panel off. As it stands, you would have hot lines both to the contactor line terminals and the SSR line terminals. Probably not a big deal, but something to consider.

You might not be seeing it. There is an ON/OFF button for both the BOIL contactors and the HLT contactors located in the control panel. However, while making the (what I hope to be) final revisions, I added a key switch just after the E-Stop. It is redundant to say the least but I'm all about safety.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

EDIT One last MAJOR revision is coming.

I want to take a moment to thank P-J, without whom I probably wouldn't have even been able to start this project. The drawings he provided are at the foundation of these revisions. I also want to thank 'da Kid and everyone else that have offered suggestions or pointed out potential problems.

WARNING- The diagrams below may look like P-J's diagrams but they are not, therefore they may contain mistakes. They were designed using a substantial amount of P-J's ground work. However at this point they are now vastly different. Caution should be taken if you intend to use them as a guide. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

 

[The10mmKid]

Looks good. Now get busy.

Looks like you can use 6ga copper if you are running THHN as the feeds.

http://cerrowire.com/files/file/ampacity2010.pdf

The ground:
You only need one ground per panel feed. Might as well use a 6ga for the Power Panels. (8ga would be acceptable)
Bond the panel covers with a ground wire as hinges are not considered a 'connection'
Bond the panel backplane to ground. The four mechanical bolts/nuts are not considered a 'connection'.
Throw one of these symbols on each of your prints at the ground terminal block

Do you have a local source for wire?
If you can, get that MTW for the control wiring. 18ga will handle the 10A
We use Red for all 120v control. White for the neutrals of course.

Rad, I've enjoyed helping you reach your goal,
'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

You'll love those liquid level probes.
Ours are used for water makeup.

Have you considered a Red Warning light wired into the N.C. side of that relay? (it's actually a control unit)
We use that contact as a 'low water' indicator and the makeup valve.

Just something else for you to wire up . . . . . . .

'da Kid

 

[jeffmeh]

You might not be seeing it. There is an ON/OFF button for both the BOIL contactors and the HLT contactors located in the control panel. However, while making the (what I hope to be) final revisions, I added a key switch just after the E-Stop. It is redundant to say the least but I'm all about safety.

I probably wasn't clear, and it is a nitpicky suggestion anyway. My point was that when you use your control panel boil (or hlt) switch to turn off your boil (hlt) panel, there are potentially hot lines that terminate at the line in terminals of both the contactors and the SSRs. If you moved the contactors to come before the SSRs, then you would have potentially hot lines terminating at the line terminals of the contactors only (not the SSRs). Either way, you are cutting power to the elements using the contactors, but the latter method has fewer places where one could inadvertently touch a hot line. If you are never going to open the panel without disconnecting it from power, then it doesn't really matter.

The drawing looks great overall, but if it were mine I might make a couple of revisions (very subjective, though).

I would consider omitting the PID on/off switch, as I cannot think of scenarios where I would want the control panel powered on without the PIDs and timer working, or would care if they were.

I would also consider wiring 240v LEDs in parallel with each element, so I could see when each element was receiving power. If something is not working properly (e.g., an SSR fails closed), this can make it more obvious.

Great work!

 

[The10mmKid]

<snip> I would consider omitting the PID on/off switch, as I cannot think of scenarios where I would want the control panel powered on without the PIDs and timer working, or would care if they were.

I was considering moving the BOIL/HLT switches to the PID output. I too would also like to read the water temp without heat being applied.

I would also consider wiring 240v LEDs in parallel with each element, so I could see when each element was receiving power. If something is not working properly (e.g., an SSR fails closed), this can make it more obvious.

Great work!

The more common Neon indicators would work great too. Maybe one in each heater housing.

'da Kid

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Last MAJOR revision is coming!

Thanks guys for making me critically think about some of your suggestions. I spent a hours contemplating functionality, safety, diagnostics and maintenance. After a long conversation with my father verbalizing operations it finally came altogether.
I though I was finished before but now I'm convinced.
I can't thank you all enough...

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

This Is The Final Revision. (I hope)

The controls panel now has a master key start and a master power indicator.
Both Power Panels have been completely redesigned from the ground up.
SSR's are now after the contactors. You can now push the (Boil or HLT) buttons and it will open both the contactors and the SSRs while not interfering with the display of PIDs and the timer on the Controls panel.
The timer now has momentary switch for STOP and RESET.
Each element has it's own 240V indicator to monitor that they are receiving power and quickly diagnose if there is a problem individually.
The float switch has a bypass switch.
Each pump has an indicator and one pump has an automated mode for liquid level resistance to use in vorlauf and lauter, and pump over to the boil kettle without pumping directly out of the MLT.

I can think of no other design inclusions that I would want or safety issues to be concerned with. I'd like to cash-out on the design portion of the panels. I still have to finish the AutoCad and Solidworks drawings of the tanks, plumbing and platform. OH YES, I will have a platform!

Now with a little help (or a lot) putting together the parts list, I see no reason why I couldn't start putting orders in by Friday or Monday at the latest!!

Continuous thanks to all involved!

Corrections have been made, Click

 

[P-J]

You show a LED indicator in series with each contactor pick coil in the power panels. This will not work as the LED will not pass enough current to energize the contactor.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Thanks P-J, I'll make the correction now.

 

[The10mmKid]

This Is The Final Revision. (I hope)

The controls panel now has a master key start and a master power indicator.
Both Power Panels have been completely redesigned from the ground up.
SSR's are now after the contactors. You can now push the (Boil or HLT) buttons and it will open both the contactors and the SSRs while not interfering with the display of PIDs and the timer on the Controls panel.
The timer now has momentary switch for STOP and RESET.
Each element has it's own 240V indicator to monitor that they are receiving power and quickly diagnose if there is a problem individually.
The float switch has a bypass switch.
Each pump has an indicator and one pump has an automated mode for liquid level resistance to use in vorlauf and lauter, and pump over to the boil kettle without pumping directly out of the MLT.

I can think of no other design inclusions that I would want or safety issues to be concerned with. I'd like to cash-out on the design portion of the panels. I still have to finish the AutoCad and Solidworks drawings of the tanks, plumbing and platform. OH YES, I will have a platform!

Now with a little help (or a lot) putting together the parts list, I see no reason why I couldn't start putting orders in by Friday or Monday at the latest!!

Continuous thanks to all involved!

(I hope)... Well I hoped but there seems to be one more correction left.

Your Thanks are Welcomed.
Just keep us updated on your progress.
Pay it forward by inspiring the next eBrewer and lend your experience/knowledge when asked.

Oh, and we demand pics(brew rig porn) as payment . . . . .


'da Kid

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Ahh, Hold on

 

[processhead]

I find most my projects are never really done.

The revisions just start to come less often.

 

[Rad-Rabbit]

Yet, another EDIT coming

 

[The10mmKid]

Looks pretty sweet!!

Think that float switch is gonna give you any problems in the turbulent BK?

One of our level probes is in a 205degF boiler hotwell . . . . . just saying.

'da Kid

 

[jeffmeh]

You could also get a keyed e-stop, if you wanted to combine them. Just "nibbling" at this point.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated/GCX1141

 

[jeffmeh]

Also, I'm not sure what you gain from having LEDs in parallel with each of the contactors in the power panels. One LED for each power panel would tell you that it is receiving its 120v control voltage, right?

Lastly, it looks like you have the LEDs for the elements in series before the element. They should be in parallel with the element.

If I am misinterpreting the diagram, my apologies.

 

[The10mmKid]

Jeff, the LED's are there for voltage confirmation. My thoughts are that they are in the actual element housing.
That way you know if your cable connection is good, that element is on, and/or that it is cycling as the PID output is indicating. Just a visual aid, nothing more.

'da Kid