3-Vessel vs Single-Vessel Electric opinions

[deprecated]

For those of you that have gone from one to the other (electric), what are your thoughts on trade-offs? I know it's a fairly open-ended question, but I've been out of the brewing scene for probably 4 years and wonder if people feel like whatever perceived gaps there are between the two have narrowed over that time.

 

[doug293cz]

Are you seeking opinions on electric versions of each, or just in general?

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[deprecated]

Electric on both. My previous system was a 3 vessel HERMs. Will update original post. Thanks!

 

[Bobby_M]

It's no mystery around here where I stand on the subject but I'll be redundant since you asked. I have brewed on both types of systems, probably 10 batches on 3 vessel (many more on natural gas prior) and 50+ on a single vessel which is my current primary brewing system. What's great for me isn't exactly what's great for you because maybe your goals are different than mine.

I personally want to brew at least once a month, sometimes twice. I run a business so my time is limited. I don't want to spend a lot of time cleaning equipment if I don't have to. It also means that I need to keep my batch size pretty small (6 gallons) or I'll end up with too much beer.

I also want precise mash control with unattended step mashing that doesn't take forever to ramp up.

All of those things favor a carefully designed single vessel system and that's what I have.

There are a couple situations where I think 3 vessels are more favorable. One would be large batch sizes. I'm comfortable with single vessel BIAB up to a half barrel and even then, lifting the bag would best be done with an electric winch or block and tackle. 20 gallon batches? I'd be all over a 3 vessel for that.

The second reason would be if you're serious about becoming a commercial brewer in the very near future. Being tuned in to the 3 vessel process is better practice for the big show.

Last, I often hear that people want to spend all day brewing and that they don't mind the extra task load. While I can't really fathom that, maybe it's something I'll better understand when I retire.

There are some other arguments thrown around, such as greater mash efficiency with carefully fly-sparged 3 vessel systems but it's a silly point. You're not going to talk me into spending $2k more in gear and 30% longer brew days to save 10-15% in grain cost.

 

[deprecated]

Thanks for the well thought out reply, Bobby.

Your points on the reduced time and cleaning efforts are probably the most compelling reason for me to consider single vessel.

Obviously, the length of each person's brew day is as much or more dependent on their own processes as system setup, but based on your experience with 3-vessel and single vessel, what was the approximate times of brew days for each?

 

[MikeCo]

I'll mostly echo what Bobby said. I use a single vessel electric BIAB system and do 5 to 6 gallon batches. I like the simplicity of not having multiple vessels and the need for pumps and hoses to move the beer around. I often brew with friends with 2 or 3 vessel systems for larger batches, and there is almost always some fiddling around required with the pumps to get the liquid flowing properly. That usually involves dumping some wort on the floor. Multiple vessels and equipment require more cleaning and storage space, obviously. The need to make large batches is really the only reason I can see for going with a 3 vessel system.

I think if I was just starting out today, I would get an all-in-one system like the Anvil Foundry. The AIO systems are inexpensive, convenient and appear to work very well from what I read. I would definitively get a 240 volt system for whatever electric system I have. 110 volt systems are just too slow to heat in my opinion.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I would do a system like Bobby uses if I were doing smaller batches. I built my 3 vessel system when the plan was pro. Life gets in the way and now what? I do 12.5 to 20g batches. My brew days for a 20 g batch can push 8-9 hrs. 20g fly sparges take time. I’m making a small BIAB set up now for smaller 5g batches. 4 hr brew day sounds amazing. 15g kettle with electric and bag, only way to go IMO.

 

[mnbrewr]

Thanks for the well thought out reply, Bobby.

Your points on the reduced time and cleaning efforts are probably the most compelling reason for me to consider single vessel.

Obviously, the length of each person's brew day is as much or more dependent on their own processes as system setup, but based on your experience with 3-vessel and single vessel, what was the approximate times of brew days for each?

I switched from a 3 vessel, propane, Blichmann top tier setup to a single vessel eBIAB, primarily making 5G batches. My brew days went from 8-10 hours to 5-6 hours including cleanup & setup/takedown.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks for the well thought out reply, Bobby.

Your points on the reduced time and cleaning efforts are probably the most compelling reason for me to consider single vessel.

Obviously, the length of each person's brew day is as much or more dependent on their own processes as system setup, but based on your experience with 3-vessel and single vessel, what was the approximate times of brew days for each?

All of these assuming 6 gallon batch, 60min mash and 60min boil with cleanup

eBIAB 3:45
2V Kettle RIMS 4:15
3V HERMS 5:45

Keep in mind that there are many variations in how people brew, even on the same system. These times are idealized in that you have to be optimizing the whole time, such as having the water already sitting in the kettle from the night before. Milling grain while the water heats. Ramping to a boil the moment it is possible to do so. Cleaning as you go.

The longer time on the 2V is affected by 3 things. More gear to connect, slightly more water to heat, one more vessel to clean.
On the 3V it's quite a bit more water to heat, sparging takes time, more time fiddling with pump flows. I would also say that the added time tax on the 3V also scales up the most as the batch size increases. For example, doubling the batch size on the BIAB might add 10% more time while the same on a 3V would be 20% more.

I think time investment is a small portion of the decision though. eBIAB for me just has less stress about things going wrong.

 

[AlexKay]

The second reason would be if you're serious about becoming a commercial brewer in the very near future. Being tuned in to the 3 vessel process is better practice for the big show.

This is a hypothetical I’m turning over in my head quite a bit. But — here’s the twist — I’m leaning towards a small mash filter (say, a Meura 2001 Micro) instead of the old-fashioned mash-and-lauter tun. Is the thinking still that futzing around with HERMS and pumps and such is still good practice even if you’re never going to lauter a batch professionally?

 

[Bobby_M]

This is a hypothetical I’m turning over in my head quite a bit. But — here’s the twist — I’m leaning towards a small mash filter (say, a Meura 2001 Micro) instead of the old-fashioned mash-and-lauter tun. Is the thinking still that futzing around with HERMS and pumps and such is still good practice even if you’re never going to lauter a batch professionally?

I think the argument comes a little more from a position of building up an immunity to havoc and hassle. Running a large pro system has a lot of moving parts regardless of the exact system design. A slightly related topic is running 100% triclamp ports on everything in your small homebrew system just to become a zen master at clamping stuff together with two mortal hands.

The irony of the whole thing is how few brewery owners actually brew on their own systems. You tend to become a business manager, HR, and all the other hats EXCEPT for head brewer. It also ignores the fact that manufacturing the wort remains a relatively minor role in the beer in the tap room. Cold side, yeast management and good oxygen avoidance protocols are a bigger factor and that is all executable at the homebrew scale with almost any kind of gear.

 

[Eaglesbrewer44]

I recently switched to a 3v electric setup from your typical all grain setup using a propane burner and cooler mash tun. My brew days typically lasted 4-5 hours. I really had no complaints.

My first brew day on my electric system was painful. The day lasted almost 7 hours and my efficiency took a huge hit. I attribute this experience to learning the system however completely expect to be able to dial in the process and cut down on my brew day.

I’m happy took on the electric brew project and built a 3v system. It was a lot of research, work and money. I like learning new things, but this process did not make anything easier…yet.

Btw, I still have my propane set up and an anvil foundry. I’ll brew on all of them, it does not matter to me what system I use. They all make great beer.

 

[RufusBrewer]

I do 5 gallon batches. I had a 3V gas system. Picnic cooler batch sparge based. Dud they did years. Did gas BIAB for a couple systems. Now I have an electric BIAB and Electric All In One.

Love love love electric. BIAB or AIO or 3V electric, which one? Not 3V, easily eliminated. At 5 gallon batches, too much superfluous equipment to buy, store and clean. AIO can be a reasonable price, some one else did the designing, you order it one day, you are brewing a few days or a couple weeks later.

BIAB, you get to or you have (dependS on your perspective) choose the parts to make up your BIAB rig. How are you going to hoist up the bag and hold it into place? What controller, how many watts is the element? Kettle size?

What will make you happy short term and long term? How much money do you want to devote to the hobby?

 

[kevin58]

I use both. My garage is unheated with no water source other than the hose bibb at the house so brewing in the winter when temps are below zero is impossible. My larger, 3 vessel HERMS lives out there and I just stopped brewing in the winter. Fall was always a scramble to brew and stockpile as many kegs of keeping beer as I could make before the weather shut me down. A while back I bought an Anvil Foundry 10.5 to use indoors and now can brew all year long.

I can brew anything I want on the 15 gallon HERMS. If there is a drawback it would be complexity and clean up. The Foundry shines in letting me brew all year and clean up is a breeze.. just one vessel. The drawback is an inherent deficiency in the Foundry mash basket design. I won't go into detail here as it is a long story but in short, there is a built in mash efficiency problem that can be corrected by using certain techniques.

This works for me and the way I like to brew. If I had to choose just one I might opt for the new 18 gallon Anvil Foundry. It appears big enough to handle the high gravity beers I prefer and they made it with a new mash basket design that I like.

 

[Blazinlow86]

For those of you that have gone from one to the other (electric), what are your thoughts on trade-offs? I know it's a fairly open-ended question, but I've been out of the brewing scene for probably 4 years and wonder if people feel like whatever perceived gaps there are between the two have narrowed over that time.

It's all about batch size, if your only brewing 5-10 gallons and don't mind dealing with bags, pullys etc biab is a great way to brew. Anything bigger then that a traditional mash setup is ideal.

 

[TeflonTom]

I would agree with most of the sentiment in this thread that cleaning is the biggest hassle when it comes to brewing on a 3 vessel system. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that I spend the same amount of time cleaning my system as I do brewing the entire batch from heating my HLT to storing fermentation. Despite it being a bit more of an operation just switching hoses and using tri-clamps, it is closer to a commercial system brew house.

 

[Dland]

I'm happy with my 3V system, brewed batch #147 yesterday, took about 5 hours with clean up, but that is not 5 hours fully occupied. Now system is dialed in, I can do other things during much of the mash and boil time, even sparging does not take full attention for whole time it takes.

I could go into time saving tips, but is probably off topic and covered in other posts.

All 3 vessels are made out of 15G half kegs, converted from propane to electric about 110 batches ago. That was a real time/effort saver, and with electric, one does not have to monitor flame, boil status & temps much. If OP still has 3V system, probably not that hard to convert.

I brew 10 gallon batches and like the control and versatility of the 3V. While it may seem to have more moving parts than a 1V system, it is in a way simpler, and no there are no equipment failures I can't easily work around to save a brew day.

All that said, I could see being happy brewing with a 1V system if doing smaller batches, or if I want to brew indoors, or if alternative was not brewing at all.

 

[Kharnynb]

I switched from stovetop biab to eBiab(cheaper grainfather knockoff) and for 20 Liter batches, it's just perfect, metal grain mesh for easy disposal of the grain, perfect temperature dial-in and basic pump for mashing makes it a quick and easy reasonably hands-off system that cost barely 400 bucks.

Have to say that the choice is a bit easier this side of the pond as we have standard 230 volt electric.