3-in-1 "Boil Kettle, Jacketed Chiller, Conical Fermenter" by Brewha

[nackedei]

Jimmy82, have you had any issues with kettle souring in the year since you posted this? Anyone else out there have similar experience with kettle souring in a BIAC?

Different poster, but I've now made four Berliner Weisses in the medium BIAC (15 gallon batches), so I'll comment.

Really, there's nothing to it, though I do go through the effort of doing multiple brief boils to sterilize things, because it's not really that much more effort.

Mash like usual. You could then drop it to the elevated temps most strains of Lacto need. I boil it, then chill it down to 90f and pitch the Omega yeast blend, which works fine at lower temps (because it's so highly regarded). Check on pH for a couple days, and when it's where I want it, boil it to kill the Lacto. Chill, pitch yeast.

Ferment as normal. All told, to make a typical Berliner at ~3%, it takes a week. I've had great results, either straight or aged on fruit+Brett post-fermentation.

Been tempted to grow the Lacto off the grain just for fun, but honestly the $8 for a pack of Omega Lacto that requires a simple starter and nothing more is just too tempting to pass up.

 

[jubalon]

Different poster, but I've now made four Berliner Weisses in the medium BIAC (15 gallon batches), so I'll comment.

Nice. Thanks for the comment. No issues with unintentionally soured beers on batches following your Berliners?

 

[nackedei]

Nice. Thanks for the comment. No issues with unintentionally soured beers on batches following your Berliners?

Think about it this way: everything is getting boiled, and it's a closed system. Clean it out like you would any other fermenter, and it's assuredly going to be less likely to have any problems.

Even if this weren't the case, it's Lacto. It is incredibly hop-sensitive, and wants higher temps than your normal fermentation (and the strains from Omega/Giga yeast that can operate at lower temps are even more hop-sensitive).

I'd honestly feel safe giving it the most cursory of hose downs post-Berliner, before doing an IPA: there's gonna be a boil, and a ton of hops. That Lactobacillus dead even before you get the hops in there to do their thing.

If you want to be extra extra careful, I guess you could disassemble, clean, and boil the valves and hoses. Remember: you're sanitizing with heat now (in addition to any Star San baths you're giving it). It's pretty rad.

 

[JB_Brewing2]

In an attempt to achieve greater cooling efficiency from municipal water, I've been contemplating why Brewha has the intake solenoid configuration attached to the lower port on the jacket. Since warm water is lighter and stratifies to the top of the jacket this would suggest that it would be more efficient to inject cooler water at the top of the jacket since warm water stratifies to the top above cooler water.

Does this make sense? Simply means exchanging locations on input and output.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

If I'm remembering correctly from college, rate of heat transfer depends on the temperature delta. So injecting coolant at the bottom when it is coldest, where the fluid you're cooling is also cooler, gives that wider delta, rather than trying to cool that fluid with a coolant that has been warmed up by injecting it at the top where the target fluid is hottest.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jubalon]

Think about it this way: everything is getting boiled, and it's a closed system. Clean it out like you would any other fermenter, and it's assuredly going to be less likely to have any problems.

Even if this weren't the case, it's Lacto. It is incredibly hop-sensitive, and wants higher temps than your normal fermentation (and the strains from Omega/Giga yeast that can operate at lower temps are even more hop-sensitive).

I'd honestly feel safe giving it the most cursory of hose downs post-Berliner, before doing an IPA: there's gonna be a boil, and a ton of hops. That Lactobacillus dead even before you get the hops in there to do their thing.

If you want to be extra extra careful, I guess you could disassemble, clean, and boil the valves and hoses. Remember: you're sanitizing with heat now (in addition to any Star San baths you're giving it). It's pretty rad.

Right on, that's logical and well explained. Cheers!

If I'm remembering correctly from college, rate of heat transfer depends on the temperature delta. So injecting coolant at the bottom when it is coldest, where the fluid you're cooling is also cooler, gives that wider delta, rather than trying to cool that fluid with a coolant that has been warmed up by injecting it at the top where the target fluid is hottest.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If you're looking for max delta, wouldn't you pipe the coolant into the top? Assuming the coolant's entry temp is the same regardless of port choice, of course.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I've got no clue what I need as far as equipment to get started brewing beer. Can someone tell me what all is needed?
Thanks,
Bobby Cox

**out of my ass numbers ahead, meant for demonstration purposes***

Max relative delta. If you have 60F water coming in the top at say 180, and it rises to 120F by the bottom which is 150, you only have a 30 degree delta at the bottom.

If you pump in that 60F water at the 150 bottom, you have a 90 degree delta. Only now, it doesn't rise that comparable 60F to 120, but a lesser 30F. Now you have 90F water cooling that same 180F.

This is important because:

"The formula for*rate*of*heat*flow is ∆Q/∆t = -K×A×∆T/x, where ∆Q/∆t is the*rate*of*heat*flow; -K is the thermal conductivity factor; A is the surface area; ∆T is the change in temperature and x is the thickness of the material"

 

[cuda6pak]

Agreed with the 82% leaving as-is. I just opened up my mill on my brew Saturday and at 0.050" hit 73% efficiency and was able to recirculate extremely fast, so I will be staying there for the foreseeable future.

MM-2Pro. At some point I tried closing the gap more and more to get more efficiency and it did the opposite. Hurt efficiency and draining/recirculating was abysmal. Sunday's brew was a treat with the rate at which I could recirculate and the short amount of time it took to drain. Didn't even throw in a handful of rice hulls either

Brewed again on Labor Day and hit 76% efficiency doing a Rye Saison. Had it recirculating incredibly fast and not a single issue. No rice hulls either. I think I've finally found the sweet spot

 

[xico]

So I am brewing a bunch of fresh hop batches the next few weeks. 10 lbs droppped at my door each day. Cascade today, El Dorado tomorrow, Mosaic Tuesday, so on. 10 lbs of hops makes up a whole tub and I'm trying to make as much wort as possible to make them all fit.

Has anyone mashed with the colander raised to the lower handles? I am considering trying a no sparge method but I'm unsure about doughing in. I picked up an auto-sparge, and will use generous amounts of rice hulls to avoid compaction. Any advices from the community? I don't have a lifting mechanism yet so I'm trying to make do with what I have.

 

[nackedei]

"Has anyone mashed with the colander raised to the lower handles?"

I can't speak to your fresh hop situation (you bastard!). Perhaps for ease put a large amount in with the water when you start? At that amount, I can't imagine it would be a horrible result if there was a huge first wort hop contribution.

I've brewed to the point where the liquid was almost at the point of overflowing the entire damned thing (thankfully it was a Berliner I just wanted to raise to boil, not actually boil). It worked fine. Also don't have a lifting mechanism, just my wife and me. Thankfully she's not short!

 

[xico]

I ran two brews with the lower handles of the colander supporting the unit. I hooked up a borrowed auto-sparge to keep the liquid level above the grain, added 600 grams of rice hulls to be sure, and the process worked beautifully. We needed as much volume pre-boil that a medium could give us and started with 76L (76% efficiency) and 75L (82% efficiency) accordingly. The 3.5ish kg / ~8 lbs of hops took 10 to 12 liters with them.

The mashes ran crystal clear. We found a method that works for sparging. After we add acid and salt additions to our total water in the conical, we collect an additional 2-3 gallons of sparge water from the overflow of the jacket (we fill from the conical). We hook up a barb with silicone hosing to the top port of the jacket to a pot that is kept higher than the barb on the conical. When we sparge by pumping off the bottom (very slowly), the suction allows us to draw back the sparge from the pot to the lining. We then use another kettle as a grant that keeps the kettle line below the colander.

It's a juggling act but solves the risk of my sweetheart and I hurting our backs lifting a water-logged grain beds. When we live in a house we can add a hoist to the process that will be amazing but so far this works.

 

[xico]

I concur with the speed and thoroughness of Nathan's responses to questions. I do like the cooling coil idea and that is why I kept a plate chiller. Around here in summer, the water is probably around 80F. At a certain point, I have to switch over to glycol to reach fermentation temps. ....

You have offered a lot of great input to the thread, thank you for it. I have a similar problem where my cooling times are just unreasonable. It's the largest bottleneck in my brew process because the water is too warm from the tap. I have a whirlpool arm I had fabricated which cools to 110 fast but crawls to 64-66 where I prefer to pitch.

Aside from the time it costs in the brew day I also don't care for the water waste in the process. I can only water so many trees before everything is sated. I have some money saved and was considering getting the chiller from Nathan in the coming weeks but I'd like the function to crash the temp from 110F to 64F as quickly as possible. The difference in clarity (when important) and trub separation is too great.

Limulus, maybe you mentioned it in previous pages and I haven't found it but can one connect a large cooler of glycol/water as a reservoir? I know the energy pulled from the 3 gallon won't do much but I am trying to figure out a cold liquor tank solution.

What are people's thoughts on running more than one conical on the basic Lindre Nathan sells? Next summer I hope to have enough saved to get a second conical.

 

[limulus]

xico,
I think it is definitely doable and I have thought about it. Last summer, there were two instances where the breaker tripped in my garage when I was running the glycol chiller. I started thinking a Cold Liquor Tank would ease the situation. I still have a 25ft copper coil somewhere in my brewing supplies. You could probably fill a 10 gal beverage cooler like the Home Depot models that are popular for mashing with water/glycol and then use the coil inside that. Just circulate solution from the glycol chiller through the coil and presto, you have a 10gal CLT (at least in theory). All you would need is a pump from the CLT to the electronic valve on the BIAC.

 

[xico]

What I had in mind was to circulate the 10 gallons (plus 3 gallon reservoir of the Lindr) from cooler to chiller. but using a coil sounds more efficient.

This is becoming an increasingly expensive project and I have other areas of the brew process I had expected to invest in but I can't justify the water waste anymore. Keg and carboy washing is done with 4 liters each of wash, rinse, and sanitization. If it wasn't for cooling my usage ratio would be 0.5 water to make 1.0 unit of beer. I'm probably closer to five or six to one. The new microscope I was planning to build will have to wait....

Thanks for the input buddy!

 

[limulus]

What I had in mind was to circulate the 10 gallons (plus 3 gallon reservoir of the Lindr) from cooler to chiller. but using a coil sounds more efficient.

This is becoming an increasingly expensive project and I have other areas of the brew process I had expected to invest in but I can't justify the water waste anymore. Keg and carboy washing is done with 4 liters each of wash, rinse, and sanitization. If it wasn't for cooling my usage ratio would be 0.5 water to make 1.0 unit of beer. I'm probably closer to five or six to one. The new microscope I was planning to build will have to wait....

Thanks for the input buddy!

Yeah, I have issues with the excessive water use myself. We are in a bit of a drought around here and I can only water so many shrubs and trees in the yard. I had a 20 and 30 plate chiller in my old setup and I used a 10gal cooler filled with ice and water. It took about 5min to bring down to 68F. I kept the 20 plate chiller. Maybe, I can use it somehow in the process.

 

[limulus]

Hi Guys,
I finally got around to building an extension cord. I went overboard and bought 35ft of cord. I have a 3-car garage and I can roll this thing to the most extreme corner and still have extra cord. That means it lays flat on the floor and there is no chance of tripping over it. As suggested by snackson, I went to wireandcableyourway.com and bought my cable. Refer back to post 804 to see the exact link. I also bought my two end connectors from Amazon. Here are the links to the connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00208WSDW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002NARX/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[snackson]

Hi Guys,
I finally got around to building an extension cord. I went overboard and bought 35ft of cord. I have a 3-car garage and I can roll this thing to the most extreme corner and still have extra cord. That means it lays flat on the floor and there is no chance of tripping over it. As suggested by snackson, I went to wireandcableyourway.com and bought my cable. Refer back to post 804 to see the exact link. I also bought my two end connectors from Amazon. Here are the links to the connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00208WSDW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002NARX/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Glad it worked out for you!

 

[jsmoon888]

What is the maximum batch size for the medium BIAC? I usually make 5-5.5% ales and currently finish with 10.5 gallons in the kegs but it seems like there is plenty of room in the BIAC for bigger batches but not sure what the max boil capacity would be without a boil over.

 

[jeffcosgrove]

I just did a 15 gal batch and had 1 gal left after kegging. I used 35.25# of grain. No issues at all. I don't have my notes but I think OG was 1.053. I did add about 4 gallons of sparge water when pulling the collander out to get the pre-boil volume as this was a 90 minute boil for pilsner malt. I had 19.5 gallons pre-boil.

 

[Jimmy82]

I got my medium BIAC a few weeks ago and have been slowly putting the rest of the system together. This thing looks beautiful and I cannot wait to brew on it!

As it happens I'm trying to get something together in time for a local homebrew contest on October 1st, and I realized I might be able to turn out a Berliner Weisse in plenty of time. However, I'm a little skittish about intentionally souring my brand new equipment.

Logic tells me that since everything's gonna get boiled after a kettle souring process that I shouldn't worry (as long as I don't let any hoses touch the souring wort) but I can't help but feel what might be undue cautiousness... I searched the thread and found this post: Which is pretty much what the logical part of my brain is telling me... but I'd love some more real-world info.

Jimmy82, have you had any issues with kettle souring in the year since you posted this? Anyone else out there have similar experience with kettle souring in a BIAC?

I've brewed multiple kettle sours on this - there's no concern with souring in the BIAC. The lacto is present in the BIAC, regardless of kettle souring..it's all over the malt that you're putting in there during the mash - the boil will kill any trace of lacto.

Most recently I did a kettle soured raspberry berliner weisse that turned out fantastic!

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I've brewed multiple kettle sours on this - there's no concern with souring in the BIAC. The lacto is present in the BIAC, regardless of kettle souring..it's all over the malt that you're putting in there during the mash - the boil will kill any trace of lacto.

Most recently I did a kettle soured raspberry berliner weisse that turned out fantastic!

Your beer looks amazing, and I'm very interested in trying this. Would you mind sharing your recipe/process?

Cheers,
Joe

 

[Jimmy82]

Your beer looks amazing, and I'm very interested in trying this. Would you mind sharing your recipe/process?

Cheers,
Joe

Thanks! Here's my recipe and process:

Stats:
OG:1.031
4.5 IBU
2.8% ABV

Mash:
56.8% Pilsen Malt
40.3% Wheat Malt
2.9% Acid Malt

-Mash @ 150*f for 60 minutes
-Remove grain from mash
-Chill wort to ~110-115*f

Souring:
-Add unmilled malt to wort (I use the BREWHA stainless mesh tube to easily remove the malt later. A mesh bag would work as well). I use a ratio of .5 lb Acid Malt & .5lb 2 Row per 5 gallons of wort.
-Run CO2 through wort to purge O2 from wort & vessel. You want to eliminate as much O2 during the souring phase as possible. I do this from the bottom port on the BIAC
-Hold at 110-115*f until desired pH has been reached. Most information you read will suggest something like a pH of 3.2-3.6..the lower you go, the more sour it will be and the harder it is on your yeast. I normally aim for somewhere around 3.3. Expect to hold at this temperature for 24 hours or more to reach the desired pH.

Boil:
-Once you've reached your desired pH, remove the grain and boil for 15 minutes
-4.5 IBU of Spalt Select @ 10 minutes
-Chill to 68*f

Fermentation:
-Ferment with US-05 @ 68*f

Raspberry Variation:
-Brew exactly the same as the recipe above, but on day 4 of active fermentation, add frozen raspberries at a ratio of .85lbs/gallon. I use a mesh BIAB bag to add the raspberries to the fermenter
-Leave the raspberries in the fermenter for 1 week

 

[xico]

What is the maximum batch size for the medium BIAC? I usually make 5-5.5% ales and currently finish with 10.5 gallons in the kegs but it seems like there is plenty of room in the BIAC for bigger batches but not sure what the max boil capacity would be without a boil over.

Within the unit, I've done ~19 gallons before on the system. If you are brewing in a place where spillage is less a concern I could definitely see going over 20 gallons pre-boil. But for batches larger than my 18 gallon target size, I mash and pour off 4 gallons into a kettle that goes to the stove for a second beer.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Thanks! Here's my recipe and process:

Thanks Jimmy, quick follow ups... have you every used a lacto culture instead of unmilled grain? Do you seal the lid on as if you are fermenting during the souring phase? Do you pre-acidify the wort with lactic acid before adding the grain/culture for souring?

Thanks again,

Joe

**edit for clarity**

 

[Jimmy82]

Thanks Jimmy, quick follow ups... have you every used a lacto culture instead of unmilled grain?

Yes, but it was slower to sour (3 days vs 1 day), and the final product wasn't as good as using unmilled grain

Do you seal the lid on as if you are fermenting during the souring phase?

Yes. I seal the lid, attach the blowoff tube and run it into a jar of starsan. Hook C02 to the bottom port and purge, using the starsan bubbles as a flow gauge.

Do you pre-acidify the wort with lactic acid before adding the grain/culture for souring?

No, the acid malt will provide a bit of a pH drop, but not much. I've never found acidification to be necessary.

 

[xico]

Thanks Jimmy, quick follow ups... have you every used a lacto culture instead of unmilled grain? Do you seal the lid on as if you are fermenting during the souring phase? Do you pre-acidify the wort with lactic acid before adding the grain/culture for souring?

Thanks again,

Joe

**edit for clarity**

I've had mixed results with sour mashes but kettle sours have been great. Plenty of people do great with this classic practice but I've settled with souring wort. Wild souring more than commercial strains seem faster in driving the pH down. If you use commercial ones I would advise against L. delbruekhii (sp?). It ferments rather cleanly, grows slowly, and doesn't produce much tartness. brevis is a better choice for purchase. I make starters with grain. 100 g in 1 Liter wort with headspace purged. This way if something else is growing in it you dump a liter and not 70.

Using the biac is ideal for kettle souring. You can purge the headspace of oxygen (which molds need), keep the temps around 39C 100F or a bit higher to select for lacto, and a slightly lower pH is a further measure. There's a tradeoff, lactic acid is toxic to lacto, so pitching them into a 3.0 pH wort would limit their activity and life cycle.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I've had mixed results with sour mashes but kettle sours have been great. Plenty of people do great with this classic practice but I've settled with souring wort. Wild souring more than commercial strains seem faster in driving the pH down. If you use commercial ones I would advise against L. delbruekhii (sp?). It ferments rather cleanly, grows slowly, and doesn't produce much tartness. brevis is a better choice for purchase. I make starters with grain. 100 g in 1 Liter wort with headspace purged. This way if something else is growing in it you dump a liter and not 70.

Using the biac is ideal for kettle souring. You can purge the headspace of oxygen (which molds need), keep the temps around 39C 100F or a bit higher to select for lacto, and a slightly lower pH is a further measure. There's a tradeoff, lactic acid is toxic to lacto, so pitching them into a 3.0 pH wort would limit their activity and life cycle.

Thanks for the input, I'm planning on using acid malt and 2-row as Jimmy suggests to get my wort souring. Gonna try and get the brew in this weekend... we'll see how it goes.

Joe

 

[NHBrews]

I'm planning to brew a KBS clone to put into a 15gal whiskey barrel I'm getting. My grain bill will be 50lbs+ based on my expectations for lower efficiency (target OG is 1.092)

I was wondering what is the maximum grain bill anyone has used in a Medium BIAC? BREWHA website says 35lbs, but I have gone over 30lbs for a 10gal batch and still had plenty of extra space in the colander. This is my first time going for a 15gal batch. I have an old BIAB set up that I could do a separate mash in, but would prefer not to have the extra setup/clean up.

 

[Winger22]

I've done 35 pounds and it was pretty full. You could do 50 lbs + if you pull the basket up and do a sparge after.

 

[NHBrews]

I've done 35 pounds and it was pretty full. You could do 50 lbs + if you pull the basket up and do a sparge after.

Thanks, just put my order in, going to give it a try. Hope my pulley holds up to the weight. I'll let you know how it goes