3 Batches straight with off flavors!

[daniel4616]

Hey guys. I have finished my 5th batch of beer. However, out of the past four, three of them had off flavors. The best way I can describe them is a mild "cinnamon" type flavor. Some have had it stronger than others.

The past 3 batches have been all grain. Odd thing is, the first batch I made came out great and it was an extract kit with US-05 yeast. I have bought the yeast again thinking maybe the yeast I bought was not too good. This did seem to help a bit.

Now I am thinking the problem is with temperature control in my house. The first batch was done at room temp in my house ~70F. That beer came out fine. However I was told this was too hot, and I should try to cool it down. I have done things to keep it cooler, but I am having problems KEEPING it the same temp all day. Would having it ferment at around 65F +-3-5 degrees produce more off flavors that keeping it at a constant 70? I read that if your in the temp range, then the MOST important thing is constant temp.

The past 3 batches I tried to control temp to get it somewhat low and fear I may have had the temp fluctuate a bit. Could this be the main problem, or is it something else? I also slowly poor my hot grains from my mash tun into my lauter cooler. Could HSA cause this?

 

[elpenoso]

Ferm temp, time to build a ferm chamber

 

[MalFet]

HSA is pretty much a myth. It sounds like temperature to me too, though it's tough to say for sure. The cinnamon you're describing could be hot alcohols or esters, which are a common by-product of too hot fermentation. Whether or not this is the problem, you'll be well served by managing to get some fermentation temp control somehow. When you cite these temperatures, is that ambient temperature or the temperature of the wort?

 

[daniel4616]

These are all ambient temps. The odd thing to me is that the first batch came out with no off flavors at all. This was fermented in the same room, with no temperature control. Just sitting in the closet, but when I try to get the temps down a little cooler, the beer gets off flavors.

 

[MalFet]

These are all ambient temps. The odd thing to me is that the first batch came out with no off flavors at all. This was fermented in the same room, with no temperature control. Just sitting in the closet, but when I try to get the temps down a little cooler, the beer gets off flavors.

Not necessarily. Fermentation is weird, and a lot of factors go into it. The up and down in wort's temp might be more than you think just tracking ambient temps. Rapid temperature variation can cause yeast stress. Or it could be differences in the yeast population you pitched or beer style differences.

 

[daniel4616]

Do you have any suggestions on how to possible control this issue? My buddy ferments in his house at 71 ambient, and I have never tasted this off flavor from any of his beers. Im almost positive its a temp issue.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

The temperature range for the yeast is what its supposed to be inside the fermenter. If your room temp is 70*, then its very likely that the temp inside the fermenter is up nearer to 78*. Its best to try to keep fermentation temps under 70* with Safale-05, which means you want the ambient temp outside the fermenter to be in the lower 60's. You can accomoplish this by doing a swamp cooler whereby you immerse the fermenter in a rubbermaid dub of water and drop in frozen 2L bottles of water each day to keep the temp down.

 

[daniel4616]

This was the method I used on my last beer. While it is still bottle conditioning, I tasted one and it had a small amount of that off flavor. It most certainly kept the temps down, but when I would get back from work, the ice would be melted, and Im sure the temp would have risen atleast 3-5degrees. However the first one (mentioned a few times already, I know, sorry) was with US-05 and fermented perfect at 70F with no off flavors, but it was a constant temp. I am thinking about making the Son of Fermentation. Maybe I will try one more batch with the method described above, before I dive into the chamber.

 

[MalFet]

Do you have any suggestions on how to possible control this issue? My buddy ferments in his house at 71 ambient, and I have never tasted this off flavor from any of his beers. Im almost positive its a temp issue.

Same recipes and yeasts each time?

 

[Grinder12000]

Another way to cool the carboy down is a wet towel and a fan on it - it'll cool a carboy by a good 5-7 degrees in the winter with evaporation.

How many great batches of NON-All Grain have you done. Just asking.

 

[Grinder12000]

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong Dan. Just saying that "in my opinion" it's best to make a Hot Dog REALLY REALLY good before you try to make a gourmet meal. (partial mash, mini mash before AG and what kind of AG are you doing - stove top of brew sculptor).

Personally I do not feel the problem is with temps. I little hot COULD be a problem but there is something else going on.

How long as the beer aged - I feel we need more information - at what point are you tasting the bad beer - what style, the facts boy we more need the facts LOL

What kind of grain, yeast, hops recipes, water modifications (if any), if you doing all grain what kind of water are you use.

BTW - I had 6 straight infections (batch #32 thru #37) - I'm the poster child for bottle side infections, I feel your pain.

 

[daniel4616]

Ok, I have only done one extract brew kit, and it turned out well.

I decided to go all grain because a buddy of mine showed me how simple it was. I have seen it done a few time, and talked about all the possible set ups with my buddy and his friends, and decided to give it a go. IMO the actually brewing process has gone spotless so far. Strike temp, and mashing temp all are on point. Sparging and boil also go just as planned.

First batch that came out wrong was a partial mash. Pils grains for base, and 3lbs of pils extract from NB. Nothing more. Hops were cluster as that is my go-to bittering hop. Muntons Gold yeast (though I will never use this yeast again). I thought the yeast was quite poor. This beer however was drinkable, but not to my liking. It sayed in primary for 2 weeks, then bottled for another 2.

Second was an attempt at a higher gravity winter ale. Same Munton yeast (I purchased two packets) This time with some L40 crystal and Marris Otter, and 2Row. About 12lbs of grain in this one. I gave this one 3 weeks in primary and just recently dumped it and tried it. Alcohol was there, same for that off taste.

Third was a batch of left over grains. 5lb 2Row, 5lb Marris Otter, 0.5lb Midnight wheat. For this one I used that towel-fan-water method to cool, and it had a pronounced off flavor. This yeast however was S-33.

Next batch was a more forgiving coffee vanilla stout that had no off flavors and used T-58 as the yeast.

Each was given at least 2 weeks primary. I used publix spring water for all of the batches. I understand this is a much more complicated method, but I would really prefer not to go back to extract simply because I find this method VERY enjoyable. I might get a kit to try and compare and see if my method is the problem.

Also, I tried one of the new beers I bottles last tuesday, and the off flavor is mellowing out very much. This beer was US-05 yeast. Publix water, 5lb 2Row, 5lbs Marris Otter, 1lbs Amber malt, handful of midnight wheat for color. Cluster hops 1oz. 2 Weeks primary, bottled.

EDIT* some of the batched used leftover grains, could stale grains cause this flavor. They are in a cool dark room in a bag, however the bag is not air sealed, and some have been sitting in there for 2+ weeks.

 

[MalFet]

My reason for asking about recipes and yeasts was to suggest that you've got enough diversity in your brew history that it is a bit premature to be making comparisons between approaches to temperature. There are a lot of variables at play.

The more you say, the more I think it is a temperature problem. I understand why you might be skeptical considering that you had an uncontrolled batch that turned out well, but like I said...too many variables. The "cinnamon" taste you describe sounds to me like some combination of phenolic compounds and fusel alcohols. In particular, the fact that the off flavor is mellowing with time makes me think that you've got intermediate fermentation and stress compounds. Temperature control, proper yeast pitching, and time will make these problems go away.

You mentioned in regards to one of your batches that you dumped it after three weeks in primary. Is this right? Did you do this for the other batches too? After only four or five batches, I'd strongly encourage you to not dump anything. Beer tastes weird straight out of the fermentor. It has off flavors just because it is unfinished.

If you like grain brewing, stick with it. There are more variables to consider when there are problems like this, but the same principles apply.

 

[SwampassJ]

T-58 is said to be estery with a peppery profile (never used it) and S-33 I keep seeing posts with people suggesting it in belgian pales so I'm going to guess it's an estery yeast too. If you're dead set on using dry yeast try using Nottingham but you're going to need to keep it in the mid-lower 60s, otherwise I would try Pacman liquid yeasts. I have no experience with Muntons and I'm not a big fan of US05 (aka Chico strain) myself. Let the newest beer sit for a few more weeks, then refrigerate for 3 days and pour out most of the beer leaving the yeast at the bottom (about 1" or so until you get the hang of lower floccing yeast).

 

[Yooper]

I second a water bath cooler- even if you don't put frozen water bottles in it, just having all that water "insulate" the fermenter will keep temperature fluctuations to a minimum.

Can you try one batch with different water? Try distilled water and add a teaspoon of calcium chloride to it, to see if that fixes the problem. Water is 90% of beer, after all, and maybe that's the problem here.

 

[Homercidal]

Nothing wrong with S-05 or Notty. They are clean yeasts, but require lower temps to get it. I'd try to get your temps down to low 60s in the fermenter, that might mean swamp cooler device in a mid-60s room. Anyway, try your best.

Also, it sounds like you are tasting young beer. I'd stick them somewhere and forget about them for a few weeks.

And S-33 is made to produce funky flavors, I think...

 

[daniel4616]

@ MalFet; I kept the beer in primary for about 3 weeks, bottled it and after 2 weeks it still had that off flavor. This beer was brewed sometime in late november and I just recently dumped the rest of it and tasted it. So I did let it bottle condition before deciding I was not going to drink it.

@SwampassJ; I will try the mentioned yeast. The only reason I tried US-05 was because I read it leaves very little "yeast" flavor. The temp range is large (up to 75 on packet), and it fermented well with my first batch.

I forgot to add, that in the first off-flavored batch, the yeast WAS pitched fairly warm. I have since made an immersion wort chiller, and cooled to ~75F before I pitched the yeast. Each mistake I have made, I researched on here, and tried my best to correct the problem. Unfortunetaly I have still got some bad batches of beer after. I would like to be able to spot the problem, and fix.

BTW Thanks so much for you guys who are helping me out. I seriously appreciate it. I just want good beer

EDIT* Thanks for the input. I am going to try and get ahold of a DataLogger, put my next batch in water, and put a computer fan blowing it and see the range of my temps. I am planning on making the Son of a Fermenter later so I will have these parts laying around.

 

[sjbeerman]

This has probably been mentioned before, but the key here is a constant temp with no significant increases or decreases. Is the surrounding temp constant? I don't see any issues with fermenting around 70 F. In fact, for some yeast this may be an optimum temp. Do you have a fermometer (the sticky thermometers that go on the side of the primary)? Some may disagree, but I found mine to be fairly accurate. As already mentioned, there are many variables at play. So, perhaps there is another issue that is going on.

 

[MalFet]

@ MalFet; I kept the beer in primary for about 3 weeks, bottled it and after 2 weeks it still had that off flavor. This beer was brewed sometime in late november and I just recently dumped the rest of it and tasted it. So I did let it bottle condition before deciding I was not going to drink it.

Okay good. Just wanted to make sure.

I forgot to add, that in the first off-flavored batch, the yeast WAS pitched fairly warm. I have since made an immersion wort chiller, and cooled to ~75F before I pitched the yeast. Each mistake I have made, I researched on here, and tried my best to correct the problem. Unfortunetaly I have still got some bad batches of beer after. I would like to be able to spot the problem, and fix.

Ahh...here's the rub. Even 75F is just too hot. Pitching temperature is critical, especially with dry yeasts which tend to get going pretty quickly. As Homercidal mentioned, stick with a clean US-05 for a few batches to make sure you're not just getting intended yeast character, but you've got to find a way to get that stuff down to the mid-60s and to keep it there for at least a couple of days. Temperature at the first 72 hours is way more important than temp over the next six weeks. If you're pitching at 75, you're getting fermentation temps possibly at 80, and that's going to stress the yeast.

It's tough...I'm in a small Manhattan apartment, and I spent six months trying to figure out how to keep my fermenting cool without buying a dedicated box just because of the space issue. Eventually I just gave up and bought a dorm fridge from Target. The quality of my beers skyrocketed. Some of the compounds produced by hot fermentation go away with aging, but some don't.

BTW Thanks so much for you guys who are helping me out. I seriously appreciate it. I just want good beer

And we just want you to have good beer.

 

[daniel4616]

@ sjbeerman; I agree with that. I was trying to figure out if it was all a temp problem, or something else. In all honesty the final two fermentation temps got a little fluctuated. When I was trying to cool the temp down, I used the water towel method, and on a couple of the days forgot to add more water to the towel/bucket. On the water tub ice method, same thing, on one day I forgot to add ice, and the temp I assume was fluctuating throughout the day when the ice melted. I work long days so between me putting the ice into the tub, and it melting, is an entire work day for me.

 

[daniel4616]

I figured that was a problem, I have since tried to pitch yeast as low as possible. A question I have now then is:

How long can I cool the wort before adding the yeast?

I know the longer the cool down, the more chance of other organisms growing. My immersion wort chiller only cools so fast, and my brew kettle is open for most of this time because the chiller sticks out and such. Is it a bad idea to use immersion wort chiller to chill to ~75, then pour off into carboy, pop on air-lock, and sit in freezer/fridge until the wort is ~60-65F and then pitch the yeast?

 

[MalFet]

I figured that was a problem, I have since tried to pitch yeast as low as possible. A question I have now then is:

How long can I cool the wort before adding the yeast?

I know the longer the cool down, the more chance of other organisms growing. My immersion wort chiller only cools so fast, and my brew kettle is open for most of this time because the chiller sticks out and such. Is it a bad idea to use immersion wort chiller to chill to ~75, then pour off into carboy, pop on air-lock, and stil in freezer/fridge until the wort is ~60-65F to pitch the yeast?

That sounds like a good approach. Obviously, faster is better, but if you are good with your sanitation you should be okay, especially if you only need to drop another 10-15 degrees. Look up "no chill" on these forums. I've never done it, but these guys might have some tips about how to delay pitching properly.

Also consider covering the top of your kettle with sanitized tin foil. I let my temp drop down to 170F and then cover until I get to pitching temps (or, in this case, however close you're going to get).

Or, consider undershooting your final volume by a gallon or so and then top off with a gallon of (clean) near-freezing water.

Any of these ideas may be more practical or less practical for you, but you've definitely got options.

 

[eppo]

I figured that was a problem, I have since tried to pitch yeast as low as possible. A question I have now then is:

How long can I cool the wort before adding the yeast?

I know the longer the cool down, the more chance of other organisms growing. My immersion wort chiller only cools so fast, and my brew kettle is open for most of this time because the chiller sticks out and such. Is it a bad idea to use immersion wort chiller to chill to ~75, then pour off into carboy, pop on air-lock, and sit in freezer/fridge until the wort is ~60-65F and then pitch the yeast?

when you use your chiller, does the temp of the wort stall at 75? do you just set it in the kettle and let the water run? what i do, with amazing results, is stir the wort while its cooling, i got my last batch down to 60F in about 10 minutes. granted it was 20F outside, but even during the summer i can get it down to 65 in about 15 minutes or so. i used to cool using the ice water in teh sink method and it would take a little over 20 minutes to cool.... i stirred then too. i think you should give it a go for up to 30 minutes, and see how low you can get the wort.
good luck!

 

[daniel4616]

Thanks. Will do, and I will update this post with my next batch. I am brewing on Friday, and will take much better notes this time. Hopefully I will fix it and be pumping out better beer soon.