2qt./LB Mash...

[dontman]

Instead of adding mashout water and since you are batching you could just thin the original mash so that it will drain half the boil volume and then you add sparge to get the boil volume. It is not really necessary to mashout specifically when doing batch. (The method you mention is called single infusion, mashout, single batch sparge on Beersmith.)

I mention this not because Denny's method lacks merit. It is just that this thread is about using thinner mashes to increase efficiency.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

My efficiency seems to be locked at a certain value. It seems it doesn't matter whether I do a simple mash or a decoction...thin or thick...medium-low or high-ish gravity...it's always right at about the same number (84% into the fermenter). Maybe that means one process (such as mashing) is reasonably efficient for my crush but another (such as lautering) sets a cap on how high my efficiency can go. But even when I mash thin and don't have as much sparge water it doesn't seem to matter.

 

[Kaiser]

-double post-

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Thanks Kai...I'm not really trying to increase it...more like just trying to identify the losses and where they occur. Just so I'll know.
EDIT: this post was in response to Kaiser's post which is now 2 posts down.

And you were darn close...I'm usually right at about 88% into the kettle.

 

[menschmaschine]

For beer quality sake you need to leave some extract behind in the lauter (at least with a simple lauter tun and not one of those high tech ones they have in breweries). 10%-15% sounds about right to me.

Why is that, Kai? I've seen that written, but not explained. Thanks.

 

[Kaiser]

I mention this not because Denny's method lacks merit. It is just that this thread is about using thinner mashes to increase efficiency.

Denny mentioned that he has started to mash thinner not because it improves his efficiency but b/c a thin mash is easier to work with.

SpanishCastleAle,
You have hit the wall when it comes to your efficiency. 84% in the fermenter is pretty good and means that you probably have ~90% in the kettle. If you were to test your first wort's gravity it should be very close to the theoretical max that I posted here: Troubleshooting Brewhouse Efficiency - German Brewing Techniques

For beer quality sake you need to leave some extract behind in the lauter (at least with a simple lauter tun and not one of those high tech ones they have in breweries). 10%-15% sounds about right to me.

There is not much more that you can do to improve your efficiency.

Kai

 

[Kaiser]

Why is that, Kai? I've seen that written, but not explained. Thanks.

The 10-15% number is just a gut feel.

In order to increase your lauter efficiency such that you leave only little extract in the spent grain you'll have to sparge more. But the wort derived from sparging has a lower quality (tannins and such) and should be minimized. There will be a point at which you do more harm than good. This is why I think leaving 10-15% behind when batch sparging and maybe 10-5% when properly fly sparging is a good compromise.

Here is the page in Brigg's brewing science and practice that has a graph showing how the undesirable compounds increase towards the end of the lauter: Brewing: Science and Practice - Google Book Search

What I'm talking about is basically the avoidance of oversparging.

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

There will be a point at which you do more harm than good.

OK, that's what I was thinking. But how independent is this of pH and temperature (the two factors implicated in tannin extraction)? If your pH and temperature are under control the whole time, could you sparge a bit more than the normal recommendations without lowering wort quality?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

This is why I think leaving 10-15% behind when batch sparging and maybe 10-5% when properly fly sparging is a good compromise.

I'm glad you wrote that because I'm leaving ~15% behind but I'm fly sparging. I should try a finer crush just to see what I get...I'm only at .040" gap and I condition my malt (prob not even necessary at that gap...but it just looks soooo much better).

 

[Kaiser]

If your pH and temperature are under control the whole time, could you sparge a bit more than the normal recommendations without lowering wort quality?

It is certainly possible to leave very little behind and still make high quality beer. You'll have to give this a try. I have a batch sparging system and as a result my lauter efficiency is limited by that.


SpanishCastleAle,

You may want to go through the exercise of measuring your conversion and lauter efficiency before tightening your crush. If your conversion efficiency is already very close to 100% then a tighter crush should not gain you anything. The opposite may actually be the case as it will further restrict your flow rate which makes the lauter more prone to channeling. My technique of measuring the lauter efficiency (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...auter_efficiency_.28fly_and_batch_sparging.29) is designed to detect uneven extraction during fly sparging as it mixes up the spent grain.

Kai

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Thanks I'll try that...it'll give me a 'lazier' use of some IC effluent too (instead of carrying buckets-full over to the washing machine).

 

[Plowboymiz]

I too have upped my ratio to 1.6qt/lb from 1.25/lb and noticed an eff. gain of 10%. Thanks to the OP for bringing this up!

 

[The Pol]

I too have upped my ratio to 1.6qt/lb from 1.25/lb and noticed an eff. gain of 10%. Thanks to the OP for bringing this up!

Yur welcome

 

[z987k]

you know if going to a 2qt/lb mash gives you higher efficiency, then you should look into why your mash efficiency is low at a lower ratio. If you could fix that and go back to a lower ratio you should have even higher efficiency since your sparge efficiency won't be hurting.

 

[The Pol]

I could, but 85% is about as high as I expect to get with a garage brew system. So, I will stick with that.

 

[Orangevango]

Has anyone experimented with VERY thin mashes? I was thinking about 4 quarts/pound.

 

[Kaiser]

Has anyone experimented with VERY thin mashes? I was thinking about 4 quarts/pound.

The Australian brew in a bag method uses thin mashes like that. 4 quarts/lb may be a little thin as the pre-boil gravity won't be more than 1.035 for a 4 qt/lb mash

Kai

 

[z987k]

I could, but 85% is about as high as I expect to get with a garage brew system. So, I will stick with that.

At 85% I wouldn't expect you to change much of anything.

 

[avaserfi]

Just tried 2qt/lb yesterday on my second all grain after getting terrible conversion efficiency on the first (55%). It went great, I ended up with 90% efficiency on the brew so I have some extra beer since I calculated for 70%. I did switch crushes though, the first was Midwest and the second was Brewmaster's Warehouse. I love his barley crusher .

Now I just need to work on my overall calculations to make sure I end up with the right amount of wort.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

My mash thickness varies with how much grain I use. If it's a medium-to-low gravity brew I have to mash thin or I'll have too much sparge water and might over-sparge. But if it's a high-ish gravity brew I pretty much have to mash sort of thick...both because my lauter tun only holds so much liquid and also because I need a decent amount of sparge water to hit my efficiency. But my efficiency is pretty much always the same.

 

[Saccharomyces]

My mash thickness varies with how much grain I use. If it's a medium-to-low gravity brew I have to mash thin or I'll have too much sparge water and might over-sparge. But if it's a high-ish gravity brew I pretty much have to mash sort of thick...both because my lauter tun only holds so much liquid and also because I need a decent amount of sparge water to hit my efficiency. But my efficiency is pretty much always the same.

Good point! I did a cream ale and a blonde ale recently, I step mashed both by double infusion so after the second infusion I was at 2-2.1 qt/lb. 90% efficiency on both, and the last runnings were 1.014 or so.

 

[ghpeel]

I'm new to real mashing, but I used a 1.825 qt / lb thin mash last Friday for a hefe, and my efficiency went from low 60's to low 80's.

I used the ratio above to hit 153 for an hour, then mashed out(?) by adding enough boiling water to make the mash 170 F. I drained that (about 3.25 gal), then batch sparged once with <2 gallons @170F again to collect another 1.25 gal of wort.

I did this in a regular, unmodified cooler with my grain inside a paint strainer AND a grain bag. Was easy to do and according to my numbers, I hit low 80's in efficiency. In fact, the hefe I was making is now starting at 1.064 instead of 1.055, so I hope it still stays true to the style.

 

[Kaiser]

the hefe I was making is now starting at 1.064 instead of 1.055, so I hope it still stays true to the style.

You made yourself a Weizenbock

Another option would have been to dilute with watrer and freeze the excess wort to keep it for future yeast starters.

I&#8217;m glad that this thin mashing is getting so much traction and that most brewers do see an improvement of their efficiency.

I also encourage everybody who is curious where efficiency is lost in their mashing/lautering process (and not all of that loss is bad) to check out my efficiency analysis spread sheet: http://braukaiser.com/documents/efficiency_calculator.xls

With a few more measurements and tests you can determine the amount of efficiency loss during conversion (mashing) and lautering.

Kai

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Hey, thanks a ton for that spreadsheet Kai...makes it very easy to see where my efficiency can be improved.

Just out of curiosity, how close to 100% should these calculated numbers be? Here are my values, I'm just wondering which ones would be the easiest ones to tackle first in order to improve my efficiency.

Conversion Efficiency: 90%
Efficiency into kettle: 80%
Lauter Efficiency: 85%

I would guess I'm converting most of the starches, only losing 10% there. However, I'm only getting 80% of that into the kettle. Should I be focusing on my sparging, or go after better conversion? Thanks for the help!

 

[Kaiser]

Hey, thanks a ton for that spreadsheet Kai...makes it very easy to see where my efficiency can be improved.

You’re welcome. showing where to tackle an efficiency problem was the intention.

Just out of curiosity, how close to 100% should these calculated numbers be? Here are my values, I'm just wondering which ones would be the easiest ones to tackle first in order to improve my efficiency.

Conversion Efficiency: 90%
Efficiency into kettle: 80%
Lauter Efficiency: 85%

If the conversion and lauter efficiency numbers are correct the efficiency into the kettle should be 90% * 85% = 77%. There might be some measurement errors that skew the numbers a little. Especially trying to read the gravity of the test water that was added to the spent grain may have a fairly large error as the gravity is pretty low to begin with. That’s also why it is not adding up to 100%. I commonly see my total between 98 and 102%.

I would guess I'm converting most of the starches, only losing 10% there. However, I'm only getting 80% of that into the kettle. Should I be focusing on my sparging, or go after better conversion?

Depends on how you sparge. If you fly sparge getting the lauter efficiency up to 90-95% seems reasonable. For batch sparging you can get to 90% (for 1040-1050 beers) w/o oversparging.

But there are still 10% of starches in the mash that you can go after. Try a tighter crush. Make sure the pH is between 5.4 and 5.6 (cool sample). I can get 95-98% conversion efficiency.

Mods, Is there a way to move this and TwoHeadsBrewing’s post into this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/efficiency-analysis-spreadsheet-107911/

Kai

 

[Piotr]

But if it's a high-ish gravity brew I pretty much have to mash sort of thick...both because my lauter tun only holds so much liquid and also because I need a decent amount of sparge water to hit my efficiency.

Good point. I did recently a doppelbock with thin mash (1:4), and I udershoot my OG by 4 points And the last runnings were 1.040.

 

[Kaiser]

Good point. I did recently a doppelbock with thin mash (1:4), and I udershoot my OG by 4 points And the last runnings were 1.040.

Yes, the thin mash (4:1) won’t work for a Doppelbock. At 100% conversion your FW gravity will be 16 Plato and sparging will only dilute this. It may work if you did is as BIAB or no sparge since you will gain about 2-3 Plato during the boil. 3:1 works better for that beer.

Kai

 

[Kaiser]

I just came across this patent description:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4228188.html

Method of mashing and lautering

The interesting thing is that it contradicts the idea that thin mashed are more efficient in their conversion. Interesting read, but it is also from 1917.

I think what happened is that their mashing parameters were good enough that the thicker mashes didn&#8217;t inhibit the gelatinization and conversion speed as much as they prolonged the life of the enzymes. In the end the conversion efficiency differences between a 2 qt/lb and 1 qt/lb mash were only 2%. This just shows that this subject is not a simple &#8220;thinner is always better&#8221;. But for the way we mash it seems that the increase in enzymatic activity outweighs the loss in enzymes by them being less stable as we go to thinner mashes.

Kai

 

[Saccharomyces]

But for the way we mash it seems that the increase in enzymatic activity outweighs the loss in enzymes by them being less stable as we go to thinner mashes.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the reason for the difference and one thing that comes to mind is the simple difference in volume of the mash tun. On a commercial scale, the mash tun is very large, so perhaps there are convection currents and such that occur that we don't see on a homebrew scale?

 

[Kaiser]

A single infusion mash that just sits there is much different from a commercial mash that is continuously stirred. B/c the mash intensity is so low, all the other parameters need to make sure that the enzymes have it much easier to get to the starch and convert it.

But apparently this patent didn&#8217;t prevail in modern brewing. AFAIK commercial mashes are in the 1.5-2 qt/lb range. I&#8217;m not quite sure about smaller microbreweries though.

Kai