240v Heating Element or Elements in HLT

[Liveforliving]

I'm working on my electric build and am about to buy my heating elements.

My plan is to get a 5500w ripple heating element for the boil kettle
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple.htm

And I was planning on just one 5500w for the HLT
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500.htm

My boil kettle is 25 gallons and my HLT is 25 gallons. For the most part, I'm planning on doing 10 gallon batches, but may move to 15+ in the future. The HLT will also be used for HERMS

Is one 5500w element is enough for the HLT? Should I add a second one to it?

I assume that one ripple element is enough for the kettle since it doesn't have to heat up the wort by a high quantity.

Also, is the HERMS coil going to rest on the heating element(s)? Is that bad, or do I do something to prevent that?

 

[ParadiseBeer]

I would go with two 5500 watt elements in your HLT. you will heat much faster. In my 20 gallon pot with two 5500w elements i can heat 20 gallons of water at a degree every 30 seconds with the pump on. You can go with the cheaper elements in the HLT, because they are in only water you don't need to worry about scorching and therefore don't need a ULWD element. in the BK you just need one element as you said the wort comes in hot so going from 150+ to boil can be done by one element. In the BK, go with the ripple due to the lower watt per sq inch. I would put your HERMS coil as low as possible in the HLT but not touching the elements.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If you have the power available, by all means put two elements in the HLT, but I wouldn't say one would be underpowered. Really depends upon your patience level, and if you have other tasks that need to be accomplished during heat up of the HLT. Will you be heating all your brewing water in the HLT, or only a fraction?

 

[ParadiseBeer]

If you have the power available, by all means put two elements in the HLT, but I wouldn't say one would be underpowered. Really depends upon your patience level, and if you have other tasks that need to be accomplished during heat up of the HLT. Will you be heating all your brewing water in the HLT, or only a fraction?

this is the reason i went with two elements. the power cost during a brew will be the same (one element on for an hour or two for a half hour). i feel that as long as your panel can do 50amp+ then run two and save the time. With my panel i can select either two elements in the HLT or one in HLT and one in BK...

 

[Liveforliving]

If you have the power available, by all means put two elements in the HLT, but I wouldn't say one would be underpowered. Really depends upon your patience level, and if you have other tasks that need to be accomplished during heat up of the HLT. Will you be heating all your brewing water in the HLT, or only a fraction?

I think I would like to heat all my brewing water in the HLT (unless it's better to use my BK initially for the mash). But, if I did only use my HLT, how do I know how much water to pump from my HLT to my BK?

Also, how do I keep my HERMS Coil from not touching my elements? Do they suspend well on their own, or do I need to build a structure?

 

[h22lude]

One is definitely enough but two will obviously heat quicker. I use 1 in my 10g ebiab and it works great. You will need two separate 30A circuits which if you know how to do will be fine but if you don't, it could cost you $300 to $500.

 

[Liveforliving]

One is definitely enough but two will obviously heat quicker. I use 1 in my 10g ebiab and it works great. You will need two separate 30A circuits which if you know how to do will be fine but if you don't, it could cost you $300 to $500.

Couldn't I install a 50A circuit instead? That'd probably be cheaper than two 30A circuits.

 

[jeffmeh]

Couldn't I install a 50A circuit instead? That'd probably be cheaper than two 30A circuits.

Yes. You will have to wire the power feed with 50a rated wire and components, then split it into 2 30a breakers to use 10awg to the elements.

 

[ParadiseBeer]

you can run two elements @ 5500 Watts from a 50amp panel. don't worry about what others say about the over 90% load. it will work fine. i pull 46amps with two elements and two pumps. if your house is old and has a 100amp main panel you might want to make sure your dryer/stove or AC is off while you brew....

 

[Liveforliving]

you can run two elements @ 5500 Watts from a 50amp panel. don't worry about what others say about the over 90% load. it will work fine. i pull 46amps with two elements and two pumps. if your house is old and has a 100amp main panel you might want to make sure your dryer/stove or AC is off while you brew....

Makes sense. I have a friend who is an electrician. I'm going to install a 50A breaker and see what happens.

 

[h22lude]

Yes. You will have to wire the power feed with 50a rated wire and components, then split it into 2 30a breakers to use 10awg to the elements.

Do you mean two 240V 30A outlets?

you can run two elements @ 5500 Watts from a 50amp panel. don't worry about what others say about the over 90% load. it will work fine. i pull 46amps with two elements and two pumps. if your house is old and has a 100amp main panel you might want to make sure your dryer/stove or AC is off while you brew....

The 90% rule is actually 80%. So at continuous load, you should only be using 40A which is less than what the two elements would pull. This isn't something someone made up. This is from NEC. It isn't something people should take lightly. With that said, continuous load is defined as 3+ hours continuous use at full power. I couldn't see a reason for both elements to be on at full power for 3+ hours.

Not trying to be nit picky. Just want to make sure people reading this thread that don't understand this stuff get the right answer before they go do electrical work.

 

[passedpawn]

Makes sense. I have a friend who is an electrician. I'm going to install a 50A breaker and see what happens.

Make sure all the wiring downstream from the breaker is also 6 AWG. Make damned sure all connections are really secure. Consider soldering crimped terminals. With that much current, the resistance in a loose connection can create a lot of heat and burn up.

 

[jeffmeh]

Do you mean two 240V 30A outlets?



The 90% rule is actually 80%. So at continuous load, you should only be using 40A which is less than what the two elements would pull. This isn't something someone made up. This is from NEC. It isn't something people should take lightly. With that said, continuous load is defined as 3+ hours continuous use at full power. I couldn't see a reason for both elements to be on at full power for 3+ hours.

Not trying to be nit picky. Just want to make sure people reading this thread that don't understand this stuff get the right answer before they go do electrical work.

No, I meant that if he wants to step the wiring down inside the control panel he can put 2 30a breakers in it and use 10 awg to each element. So 50a breaker GFCI, 6awg to control panel, to 2 30a breakers, 10awg from each breaker to an 240v 5500w heating element.

The 30a breakers protect the 10awg wire. Each element will draw 23a or less under normal circumstances. The 50a breaker protects the 6awg wire.

Not a continuous load so no de-rating necessary, as far as I understand.

 

[Liveforliving]

No, I meant that if he wants to step the wiring down inside the control panel he can put 2 30a breakers in it and use 10 awg to each element. So 50a breaker GFCI, 6awg to control panel, to 2 30a breakers, 10awg from each breaker to an 240v 5500w heating element.

The 30a breakers protect the 10awg wire. Each element will draw 23a or less under normal circumstances. The 50a breaker protects the 6awg wire.

Not a continuous load so no de-rating necessary, as far as I understand.

Sounds like we're good for the 50amp breaker. I'll be sure to use the 6awg. I tend to like both my house and my life, so not going to destroy either of those...

The plan was to modify this control panel build a little:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/?ALLSTEPS

I believe the difference is that I'll have two 30A Receptacles for the HLT wired in series in the control panel connected to a SSR & PID. I'll then have one other SSR & PID with one 30A Receptacle for the BK. If I understand this correctly.

 

[h22lude]

No, I meant that if he wants to step the wiring down inside the control panel he can put 2 30a breakers in it and use 10 awg to each element. So 50a breaker GFCI, 6awg to control panel, to 2 30a breakers, 10awg from each breaker to an 240v 5500w heating element.

The 30a breakers protect the 10awg wire. Each element will draw 23a or less under normal circumstances. The 50a breaker protects the 6awg wire.

Not a continuous load so no de-rating necessary, as far as I understand.

You are exactly right with it not being a continuous load. He will be fine using a 50A breaker for the main since both elements won't be running at full power for 3+ hours.

I was merely bringing it up to make sure people understood it. The 80% rule is a rule that needs to be followed. If those 2 elements were running at full power for 4 hours, he shouldn't use a 50A breaker. That was all I was saying.

 

[jeffmeh]

Sounds like we're good for the 50amp breaker. I'll be sure to use the 6awg. I tend to like both my house and my life, so not going to destroy either of those...

The plan was to modify this control panel build a little:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/?ALLSTEPS

I believe the difference is that I'll have two 30A Receptacles for the HLT wired in series in the control panel connected to a SSR & PID. I'll then have one other SSR & PID with one 30A Receptacle for the BK. If I understand this correctly.

I believe the elements should be wired in parallel, not in series.

 

[muhteeus]

I believe the elements should be wired in parallel, not in series.

Sort of correct. If you are stepping down the wire size, each element will be in parallel with the source and its own, separate, protection.

 

[mswebb]

I think I would like to heat all my brewing water in the HLT (unless it's better to use my BK initially for the mash). But, if I did only use my HLT, how do I know how much water to pump from my HLT to my BK?

Heating all your strike water in the HLT is fine. If you don't have a sight glass to determine volume you will need to make a measure stick. Some sort of stick which is taller than the kettle interior, marked at measured increments. Make sure it's visible when you are mashing in or only put your specific strike volume in.

I recommend two elements so that your ensure your sparge water is up to temperature when you need it; be careful not to overshoot your sparge temp though.

 

[branman]

I believe the elements should be wired in parallel, not in series.

This is correct, but they would have separate power feed (each their own 30A breaker) and parallel SSR connection. I hope that helps

 

[Liveforliving]

This is correct, but they would have separate power feed (each their own 30A breaker) and parallel SSR connection. I hope that helps

I was planning on using a 50A breaker that would feed into the control panel. I would then have two 30A receptacles for the two elements in the HLT (in parallel) and one 30A receptacle for the BK. It makes sense to also have the SSR in parallel for the HLT elements.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Why not just build a 50A back to back unit. Heat the strike water in the boil keg while heating the HLT. I think moving a hose is way easier than adding another element to the HLT. It may make reaching mashout temps faster but I'm gathering hops, preparing for the boil, and need that time.

 

[Liveforliving]

Why not just build a 50A back to back unit. Heat the strike water in the boil keg while heating the HLT. I think moving a hose is way easier than adding another element to the HLT. It may make reaching mashout temps faster but I'm gathering hops, preparing for the boil, and need that time.

Thats interesting...I've thought about that, but I'm already having to fill the HLT with a lot of water for the HERMS. But if I split the water between the HLT and the BK for the sparge and mash water, then I guess I wouldn't need to worry about not having enough water in the HLT for the HERMS. Sounds like a tough call...

 

[LarMoeCur]

Thats interesting...I've thought about that, but I'm already having to fill the HLT with a lot of water for the HERMS. But if I split the water between the HLT and the BK for the sparge and mash water, then I guess I wouldn't need to worry about not having enough water in the HLT for the HERMS. Sounds like a tough call...

I'm building my unit right now. You stated my brewing plan spot on. I plan to split the water between the BK and HLT. Fire both elements at the same time. Pump from the BK to the HLT to reach my sparge/Herms water requirements then pump in my strike water to the MT. This should cut down my wait time quite a bit. I hope.

 

[Bobby_M]

You can definitely get away with one in the HLT and one in the BK. You also need to consider the volume and temps requirements on the brew day timeline.

Let's shoot for the upper limit of what you want to brew, 15 gallons and let's call it a 1.060 beer.

30 pounds of grain.
12 gallons of strike water @ ~164F
If you heat this in the BK, it will take approximately 35 minutes assuming you start at 65F

11 gallons of sparge @ 170 but you'll start with this in your HLT as your HERMS bath at about 155F
With this in the HLT, fired the same time as the BK, you'll be there and ready for HERMS at 28 minutes.

You'll start ramping the HLT temp up to mashout at around the 30-40 minute mark, give or take.

Whether you batch or fly sparge, You'll fire the BK element as soon as it's covered with wort. In that way, but the time you're about done collecting, you'll be very close to boiling.

When you figure it this way, even at 15 gallon batches, there is very little to worry about when running a a single element per vessel since the HERMS design requires heat exchange water to be sitting there when you dough in.

 

[Liveforliving]

So I'm reviving this old thread. It's been a slow process since I first started designing and building my electric brewery (Thank goodness I could keep brewing with propane).

At this point, my pots are made. The BK has a 5500 ripple and the HLT with a 5500 straight. Both are from brewhareware.com, due to the all Stainless design that won't rust anywhere on the element.

I've been working hard on the control box and recently had folks here look at the schematic. The evident problem is that with two 30amp elements and two pumps (all on at the same time), I'm probably using around 49amps max at a given point (if I understand correctly). It's been suggested to up to breaker/wires/relay to 60amps, which I can do, but appears to be expensive and difficult.

The original thought was to power both elements at the same time, one in the BK that heats up the strike water, and other in the HLT that heats to HERMS coil water and then is used for the sparge.

Where I'm going with all this: Do I need to rethink about how I'm heating up all my water? Is there a more efficient or popular way that I am missing?

One thought I'm wondering if I should only use the HLT to heat up the water, but that will be slow I think...which was why the thread was started in the first place...

 

[Bobby_M]

You will not have any problem running 49 amps on a 50 amp circuit. Another thing is that you likely won't have exactly 240v as most supplies run down in the 235 or even 230v area and that will reduce the current to the elements.

 

[WScottCross]

You almost never have both elements and both pumps running at the same time. Both elements are on initially, when heating strike and HLT water, but no pumps. At dough-in, you transfer strike water from the boil kettle so you don't need the boil element any more. During HERMS, you only run the HLT element and both pumps. During lautering, you don't need the HLT element any more and then you're just running the boil element and both pumps while sparging. Then finally just the boil element and the wort pump to whirlpool and chill at the end.

Also, The resistance on the 5500W elements is 10.47 Ohms. If you have 230V (typical) divided by the 10.47 Ohms gives you 22 Amps on each element. Kal from TheElectricBrewery.com has pictures of his system running with a single element and two pumps pulling 22.8 Amps. You should be fine with a 50 amp circuit running for less than 3 hours continuous.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree that one is enough but if power is no concern 2 would be faster.... I brew 11 gallons with 1 4500w element teating 15.5 gallons in the HLT and I think its fairly quick compared to my stove..

(FYI my 4500w elements draw 18.4 amps and 17.2 amps respectively at 240v I have 4 4500w elements and they all draw different amounts... I agree a 5500w element usually draws about 22 amps. 50 amps is plenty. I run a 4500w ,1800w and my panel with dc pumps on my single 30a circuit and my meter never shows more than 28 amps max draw and thats usually jumping all around and not continuous due to use.

 

[BrunDog]

I agree that one is enough but if power is no concern 2 would be faster.... I brew 11 gallons with 1 4500w element teating 15.5 gallons in the HLT and I think its fairly quick compared to my stove..

I agree. I use 5500W for heating strike, mashing out, and boiling. Haven't done 10 gal batch yet but for 5 gal batches it heats so fast I am not waiting at all. In fact, its not enough time to get my other things organized. I usually condition, prepare salts, and crush during the strike and the strike is long waiting for me.