22 gal pwm kettle

[defenestrate]

awesome info. thanks.

i think i will still go with the pwm for right now.

so now my build list consist of:

kettle
5500 watt element
approx 25 ft of the bulk wire
plug for dryer outlet

in addition i will need
SSR
a box to house all the parts
some type of knob for boil control

if i understand correctly, the ssr is actually controlling the on/off of the element?

 

[stevehaun]

How much will building or buying a pwm cost?
You should be able to buy a pid for less than $50 and it can run a bk, hlt, or rims. You will need one or two SSR regardless whether you use pwm or pid.
You may also want to consider a contactor (<$15) to give you a mechanical on/off for the element.

 

[defenestrate]

How much will building or buying a pwm cost?
You should be able to buy a pid for less than $50 and it can run a bk, hlt, or rims. You will need one or two SSR regardless whether you use pwm or pid.
You may also want to consider a contactor (<$15) to give you a mechanical on/off for the element.

the assembled pwm is $8

 

[SweetSounds]

The PWM is $8, and the power supply will be another $6-10.

Some prefer not to use a PID for boil control because manual control from a PID menu can suck.
Some don't mind. It's preference...

For what it's worth, you can always add a PID later, and use a switch to select between the PWM and the PID to control the SSR triggers.

I recommend 2 SSRs so that you have both hot legs of the 240v circuit switched. It's important, because even when the PWM says off, you'll still sink 120 volts if you manage to touch the unswitched leg and ground!

+1 for the contactor too, because SSRs tend to fail "ON" - IOW you can lose the ability to turn your element off if the SSR fails.

E-Stops are a good idea too. Look at Kal's build for a good interlock failsafe using a contactor.

 

[stevehaun]

How does the manual control from a PID menu "suck"? It takes me about 30 seconds to dial it in but after that it is done. I use contactors to turn the element on/off during the boil over phase. I guess if I didn't have contactors it would be a pain to dial up/down the %power during the boil over phase. Any other drawbacks?

 

[SweetSounds]

How does the manual control from a PID menu "suck"? It takes me about 30 seconds to dial it in but after that it is done. I use contactors to turn the element on/off during the boil over phase. I guess if I didn't have contactors it would be a pain to dial up/down the %power during the boil over phase. Any other drawbacks?

That's the only one I know of.

That and PWM costs $8 and change and you just have to turn a knob...

It's just personal preference, just like an SSR on both hot legs of 240v loads.

 

[defenestrate]

The PWM is $8, and the power supply will be another $6-10.

Some prefer not to use a PID for boil control because manual control from a PID menu can suck.
Some don't mind. It's preference...

For what it's worth, you can always add a PID later, and use a switch to select between the PWM and the PID to control the SSR triggers.

I recommend 2 SSRs so that you have both hot legs of the 240v circuit switched. It's important, because even when the PWM says off, you'll still sink 120 volts if you manage to touch the unswitched leg and ground!

+1 for the contactor too, because SSRs tend to fail "ON" - IOW you can lose the ability to turn your element off if the SSR fails.

E-Stops are a good idea too. Look at Kal's build for a good interlock failsafe using a contactor.

dumb question warning... the power supply is what exactly? mind sending me a link?

2 of these SSR's??
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=30

would i need 2 of these contactors, one for each ssr? or would i only need one for the 2nd leg of the element?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=164

and i assume i would need 2 heat sinks as well?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=77

$ starting to add up :cross:

 

[stevehaun]

If you use a contactor, I think you can safely control only one limb of the 240 vac circuit, in other words, use one SSR. Reasonable people will disagree. If you don't use a contactor, then I think you definitely need two SSRs.
Those are the SSR you need.
You only need one 30 amp contactor.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=129
The contactor is 2 poles and will control both limbs of the 240 vac circuit.
Yes, those are the heat sinks that you need.
Is your circuit GFI protected?

 

[SweetSounds]

Typically the contactor will be 2 pole - So it'll break both legs of the load. Only one needed.

SSRs are single pole devices normally. One per leg - Again, personal preference...

Power supply is here:
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=635
It's listed as 220v - I have this power supply, and it's got 120v taps as well. Makes you good to go regardless of your supply voltage.

As for one SSR vs 2, people regularly argue both ways.
On one hand, with only one SSR, when it says off, you've still got death waiting on the other leg to ground. (OK, it's only 120, and it probably wont kill you. But it's not safe IMO)
On the other hand, if you use a contactor for positive disconnect of the load, it could be argued that one SSR is good because "If you want it to be off, you'll kill the contactor". I disagree, because I use a contactor as an E-Stop or manual disconnect. If the system is live and the contactor is closed and an SSR fails closed, there's a 120v 30 amp circuit itching to use me to get to ground.
Unlikely? Yep. But I like it when my heart keeps time, and that other SSR costs $10

 

[stevehaun]

I use an e-stop circuit with a contactor that shuts off all power to my control panel. I also have a contactor for each element that I use as an on/off switch. In my panel, I don't think that adding another SSR for each element would increase the safety of my system. If I want an element off, I flip a switch and both legs are off. That said, if I didn't have a contactor for each element, I would have two SSRs for each element. So, I guess I am not really disagreeing with you.

 

[trigger]

One more opinion ( I know, everyone has one and they all stink...). If you have a GFCI and proper grounds there is very little safety to be gained by having both legs switched and an increased chance of failure and an increased cost. Why would I say this? If your SSR is off, then the 240V circuit is open, so no current is allowed to flow, regardless of the "hot" leg. At that point, the for the hot leg to complete a circuit, any circuit, there would need to be a closed path. This could only be created by the current being offered a different path than the intended path, which would require either the element being exposed or you or something else touching a contact and offering a path to ground or neutral. If the element were exposed there would be a leakage current to ground through the solution in the kettle/RIMS/whatever that would trip the GFCI, powering down your entire system before you can blink. If you become the path it's because you were digging around inside the panel or the element housing with the power on. Chances are if you didn't shut the power off before doing this, you also didn't turn your PID/PWM down to zero either. Furthermore, unless you are touching the one hot lead with one hand AND a neutral (which won't be present in your element wiring, but could be in your panel) you won't complete a circuit that won't trip your GFCI.

On the other hand, SSR's are very unlikely to fail, but doubling the number of SSR's doubles the failure rate. Add in the additional cost of the SSR and remember that each SSR will generate the same amount of heat, so now you'll have to manage twice that of a single SSR per element which also costs money and I just don't think that the benefits outweigh the costs.

Going back to what I consider the most important aspect, there should never be a chance that you can contact a live wire of any sort when the system is energized, regardless of what you're PID's set at. For instance, you probably use your oven a few times a week without worrying about getting electrocuted. Your brewery should be the same. You wouldn't replace the power cord on your stove without unplugging it first, though, would you? Heck, I even shut the breaker off before unplugging the thing, just in case.

Sorry if this post got way too long. If you want SSR's on both legs, do it! I really don't want this post to be inflamitory, and I'm not knocking anyone else's design. I just wanted to emphasize that there are what I feel to be more important safety considerations, such as proper GFCI protection, intrusion prevention, secure wiring and mounting, and common sense (don't open the case when the power's connected).

 

[defenestrate]

If you use a contactor, I think you can safely control only one limb of the 240 vac circuit, in other words, use one SSR. Reasonable people will disagree. If you don't use a contactor, then I think you definitely need two SSRs.
Those are the SSR you need.
You only need one 30 amp contactor.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=129
The contactor is 2 poles and will control both limbs of the 240 vac circuit.
Yes, those are the heat sinks that you need.
Is your circuit GFI protected?

the circuit is not GFI profected there are a few open circuits open in the breaker box however. i was thinking maybe installing a 240 v GFI outside right next to the breaker box, that way i could just plug in out there and not have to run a 25 ft cable from inside for outdoor brewing.

Typically the contactor will be 2 pole - So it'll break both legs of the load. Only one needed.

SSRs are single pole devices normally. One per leg - Again, personal preference...

Power supply is here:
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=635
It's listed as 220v - I have this power supply, and it's got 120v taps as well. Makes you good to go regardless of your supply voltage.

As for one SSR vs 2, people regularly argue both ways.
On one hand, with only one SSR, when it says off, you've still got death waiting on the other leg to ground. (OK, it's only 120, and it probably wont kill you. But it's not safe IMO)
On the other hand, if you use a contactor for positive disconnect of the load, it could be argued that one SSR is good because "If you want it to be off, you'll kill the contactor". I disagree, because I use a contactor as an E-Stop or manual disconnect. If the system is live and the contactor is closed and an SSR fails closed, there's a 120v 30 amp circuit itching to use me to get to ground.
Unlikely? Yep. But I like it when my heart keeps time, and that other SSR costs $10

so the power supply actually powers the pwm?

 

[SankePankey]

Sorry I'm late to the party. It looks like you are seeking what I bought. But I don't see one listed by the same seller anymore. A couple other people bought them too because I was informed by others too..

A GFCI protected extension cord. It's a beefy MF and works great with my brewmation. It was $77 on ebay from a electronics store called Friesen. I don't see one on there right now and I just sent a message to them asking if they make em any more.

Works great. I've already tripped the breaker from a boil over. I got this one cause I rent and didn't want to buy and install something not easily movable. I emailed the seller to see if they still make them and will let you know (if you are interested).

Edit: Wow. Brain not workin this am... said the same thing 3 times...

 

[Sawdustguy]

One more opinion ( I know, everyone has one and they all stink...). If you have a GFCI and proper grounds there is very little safety to be gained by having both legs switched and an increased chance of failure and an increased cost. Why would I say this? If your SSR is off, then the 240V circuit is open, so no current is allowed to flow, regardless of the "hot" leg. At that point, the for the hot leg to complete a circuit, any circuit, there would need to be a closed path. This could only be created by the current being offered a different path than the intended path, which would require either the element being exposed or you or something else touching a contact and offering a path to ground or neutral. If the element were exposed there would be a leakage current to ground through the solution in the kettle/RIMS/whatever that would trip the GFCI, powering down your entire system before you can blink. If you become the path it's because you were digging around inside the panel or the element housing with the power on. Chances are if you didn't shut the power off before doing this, you also didn't turn your PID/PWM down to zero either. Furthermore, unless you are touching the one hot lead with one hand AND a neutral (which won't be present in your element wiring, but could be in your panel) you won't complete a circuit that won't trip your GFCI.

On the other hand, SSR's are very unlikely to fail, but doubling the number of SSR's doubles the failure rate. Add in the additional cost of the SSR and remember that each SSR will generate the same amount of heat, so now you'll have to manage twice that of a single SSR per element which also costs money and I just don't think that the benefits outweigh the costs.

Going back to what I consider the most important aspect, there should never be a chance that you can contact a live wire of any sort when the system is energized, regardless of what you're PID's set at. For instance, you probably use your oven a few times a week without worrying about getting electrocuted. Your brewery should be the same. You wouldn't replace the power cord on your stove without unplugging it first, though, would you? Heck, I even shut the breaker off before unplugging the thing, just in case.

Sorry if this post got way too long. If you want SSR's on both legs, do it! I really don't want this post to be inflamitory, and I'm not knocking anyone else's design. I just wanted to emphasize that there are what I feel to be more important safety considerations, such as proper GFCI protection, intrusion prevention, secure wiring and mounting, and common sense (don't open the case when the power's connected).

I disagree. When SSR's fail they fail closed and I have had an SSR fail on me once so I an attest to that. If your single SSR were to fail you would have no control because both legs going to your element would be full on. It would be highly unlikely both SSR's would fail at the same time.

 

[defenestrate]

Sorry I'm late to the party. It looks like you are seeking what I bought. But I don't see one listed by the same seller anymore. A couple other people bought them too because I was informed by others too..

A GFCI protected extension cord. It's a beefy MF and works great with my brewmation. It was $77 on ebay from a electronics store called Friesen. I don't see one on there right now and I just sent a message to them asking if they make em any more.

Works great. I've already tripped the breaker from a boil over. I got this one cause I rent and didn't want to buy and install something not easily movable. I emailed the seller to see if they still make them and will let you know (if you are interested).

Edit: Wow. Brain not workin this am... said the same thing 3 times...

i'm renting right now as well, so this would be a welcome option. so the extension cord itself is GFI protected? meaning you wouldnt need the outlet/circuit to be?

 

[SankePankey]

i'm renting right now as well, so this would be a welcome option. so the extension cord itself is GFI protected? meaning you wouldnt need the outlet/circuit to be?

Yes. The one I bought is about 17 feet with an inline dongle about 5 feet from the plug. It has a big button style fuse, kind of like a big computer strip. So, then I just installed a garden variety 30A breaker from Home Depot for like $20 or whatever.

 

[SankePankey]

Just got a reply. They still make them and are posting a new one on Monday. I'll forward you the link when they send it to me.

 

[trigger]

I disagree. When SSR's fail they fail closed and I have had an SSR fail on me once so I an attest to that. If your single SSR were to fail you would have no control because both legs going to your element would be full on. It would be highly unlikely both SSR's would fail at the same time.

That's a good point that I hadn't considered, and definitely a plus to using dual SSR's. With your setup when one fails (assuming it fails closed) the system would still be operable. With a single SSR you would couldn't.

I still don't think that there's a safety gain from using two SSR's, but from what you're saying it sounds like you're less likely to lose a batch of beer in the process. Either way, I'm glad you pointed this out. It's something I hadn't considered and another reason I love HBT.

 

[SweetSounds]

Dangerous

SSRs are $14. Contactors are $18.
Ambulances with defibrillators cost more than that last time I checked. I don't care how unlikely a failure is.

The safety added by spending an extra $14 for the second SSRs is clear. Even if you use a contactor for a positive interlock, it'll be closed most of your brew day right? Because the contactor is a safety - Not a device to switch the element on and off. That's what the PID/PWM is for. So when the contactor is closed, the PWM is off, and you only have one SSR on the element, you have a 120 volt 30 amp potential between the unswitched leg of the element and ground. And that's when everything is working properly... In a failure mode, the contactor is your only means to kill the element short of yanking the cord out of the wall while your BK is boiling over or your mash is spiking.

But like everything else in here, the advice is worth everything you paid for it, and everyone has their preference. That's the beauty of it!

defenestrate:
Yes, the PWM requires a 9 or 12v DC power supply to run. You can use a wall wart or buy the power supply from the same place. Either way you're good to go.

 

[SankePankey]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...e-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1#ht_1524wt_1141

Here you go defenstrate.

 

[defenestrate]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...e-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1#ht_1524wt_1141

Here you go defenstrate.

i cant seem to find any 240 v gfi outlets... is this extention cord a better/cheaper?

 

[SweetSounds]

i cant seem to find any 240 v gfi outlets... is this extention cord a better/cheaper?

I'm not aware of a GFCI 240v receptacle. You have to use a breaker behind a normal one.

You could always build one - A spa panel on a piece of wood with a receptacle and a tail to go to the wall...

 

[SankePankey]

I'm not aware of a GFCI 240v receptacle. You have to use a breaker behind a normal one.

You could always build one - A spa panel on a piece of wood with a receptacle and a tail to go to the wall...

Yeah, that's what I meant. That thing in between the wall and whatever 'control box' or 'splitter' you have for your setup. My control box is built into my brewmation so it is a one plug setup and this was just wired into it. Brewmation goes up to 26A with the HLT and BK elements running full.

 

[defenestrate]

so buying a 2 pole gfi breaker is not an option? i have some open slots in the breaker panel... but i'm not seeing and 2 pole gfi's anywhere...

edit
found this, super expensive
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[LordUlrich]

I found this one

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPLNSC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Yes they are expensive, but is it worth not killing yourself.

you do not want to use a breaker with a larger rating than your outlet, or wiring. (if you have 30 amps, you need to remain at 30 amps)

Also make sure your breaker matches the the panel type you have. your local home improvement store will likely have a larger selection than they show online.

I am a little surprised someone didn't mention something before but to run a gfic (and anything 120 on the same line) you will need 4 wires (2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground) (at least as far as i know)

 

[defenestrate]

I found this one

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPLNSC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Yes they are expensive, but is it worth not killing yourself.

you do not want to use a breaker with a larger rating than your outlet, or wiring. (if you have 30 amps, you need to remain at 30 amps)

Also make sure your breaker matches the the panel type you have. your local home improvement store will likely have a larger selection than they show online.

I am a little surprised someone didn't mention something before but to run a gfic (and anything 120 on the same line) you will need 4 wires (2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground) (at least as far as i know)

so i could either install a spa panel and run a 240 v outlet to that, or get the circuit breaker above and run a 240 outlet to that, or use the gfi extention cord. correct?

 

[SweetSounds]

The GFCI breaker is the same for 3 wire and 4 wire 240v.
Look at spa panels for your breaker. If you have a SquareD panel, you can buy a SquareD spa panel and remove the GFCI breaker and install it in your main panel. It's cheaper than just buying the SquareD GFCI breaker alone.

If you're running a new circuit entirely, I would recommend going 4-wire 50 amp. It's more expensive than 3 wire 30 amp, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than upgrading to 50 amp later.

Even if you only need 30 amps today, that extra 20 is another hot 5500w element in your next system...

 

[SweetSounds]

so i could either install a spa panel and run a 240 v outlet to that, or get the circuit breaker above and run a 240 outlet to that, or use the gfi extention cord. correct?

I wouldn't install a spa panel if you have access to install permanently from the main panel. You can buy the GFCI breaker alone, or remove one from a spa panel of the same brand.

Just my preference.

 

[defenestrate]

I wouldn't install a spa panel if you have access to install permanently from the main panel. You can buy the GFCI breaker alone, or remove one from a spa panel of the same brand.

Just my preference.

i just want to keep it as removable as possible since i am renting. if i installed a 240 v gfi breaker, i can just pop it out when i move correct?

 

[SweetSounds]

i just want to keep it as removable as possible since i am renting. if i installed a 240 v gfi breaker, i can just pop it out when i move correct?

Yes, you can. But you'll have to remove 2 slot covers from the panel, and they would have to be replaced.

I missed that you are renting - It's a bad idea to do anything with the panel. At best you piss off the landlord. At worst you burn the place down and insurance won't cover it because you didn't have an electrician do it with the landlord's permission...

Best to get a spa panel and mount it to a board with a tail to go to the range receptacle, or go in-line.