2 bbl electric options

[PaulB]

I have a friend who wants to convert their old 2 bbl system to electric. I want to start off by saying that I am an engineer by trade with automation experience and home wiring experience including an entire electric service. We are looking to do 3X 5500W elements in the BK and I am not sure what in the HLT just yet. I was hoping to find a 100A GFCI breaker or spa panel, but I have had no luck. I think we are going to have to do 2 separate spa panels or 3 separate 30A GFCI breakers. For a 200A service this will be a huge load, but doable. No electric heat, no electric dryer, maybe hold off on making that huge Sunday dinner until after brewday. What are your thoughts for the power mains since 3-phase is not an option and we definitely want ground fault protection.

 

[BrunDog]

Wow that's a huge load. First of all, the 75A draw you will get with the three elements will mean the 200A service will not be enough (for code). You could obviously turn the aforementioned items off, but it won't be legal. Upgrade the service/panel to 300A+ makes it legal, but obviously that's a huge cost.

That said I think you will need to run a 100A sub-panel. Put 30A GFIs in each space, and feed each element through individual feeds from that panel.

 

[PaulB]

Are you sure it isn't legal. People run 100A sub panels all the time on a 200A main. They also run 60A spas with other accessories. I don't know the NEC like a licensed electrician and I am not sure if the project is going to be inspected anyway.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you're going to pull a pair of 50 amp spa panels, you might as well go with four elements for 22,000 watts. That will do 50 gallons of strike water from 60 to 160F in 35 minutes. With only three elements, you'll still need the two spa panels but you'll wait 49 minutes.

 

[BrunDog]

It depends on the existing circuits. I don't know the percentages, but if you have the panel "using" the available capacity, you can't just add more and promise to keep big users turned off. It's a worse-case scenario type of design.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Are you sure it isn't legal. People run 100A sub panels all the time on a 200A main. They also run 60A spas with other accessories. I don't know the NEC like a licensed electrician and I am not sure if the project is going to be inspected anyway.

This is a good point - I'm interested in knowing the answer as well - anyone an electrician?

A 2BBL electric system would be something to see!

 

[akthor]

Might be cost prohibitive? I've never seen 2bbl or bigger electric systems. I worked a weekend at a small 3bbl commercial brewery money was tight so they did everything as cheap as possible but they still had a steam boiler for their HLT and BK.

 

[Bobby_M]

2BBL is tiny. There are plenty of pro systems electrically heated. I've seen them 7 and 10 BBL. In some cases the kettles have elements, in other cases they are steam heated but that steam is made electrically.

 

[akthor]

I meant in a homebrew setting with non commercial wiring and hot water heater elements that the cost to be able to use 4 - 5500w elements at once might be cost prohibitive. Upgrading your wiring and breakers ect.

 

[PaulB]

I am looking closer at the spa disconnects and I saw one with extra slots for more breakers. The panel itself is rated up to a 125A load center. I could do one of those with an additional 30A gfci breaker and a 100A breaker at the main panel. Then I can do plugs in boxes from that panel. The codes are different if it isn't permanently wired in. I think I prefer having separate breakers for each element, but 30A gfci breakers are like $100 each. I gotta see if you can get a 60A stove plug and then I can do 2 separate control systems that can be unplugged.

 

[jeffmeh]

I am looking closer at the spa disconnects and I saw one with extra slots for more breakers. The panel itself is rated up to a 125A load center. I could do one of those with an additional 30A gfci breaker and a 100A breaker at the main panel. Then I can do plugs in boxes from that panel. The codes are different if it isn't permanently wired in. I think I prefer having separate breakers for each element, but 30A gfci breakers are like $100 each. I gotta see if you can get a 60A stove plug and then I can do 2 separate control systems that can be unplugged.

Most of the spa panels with extra breaker slots do not provide gfci to those extra slots. Just a heads up.

 

[PaulB]

I would need a 30A gfci breaker which costs more than the panel with the 60A breaker in it. Cost is really a matter of popularity. The most common stuff is made in larger batches and reduced cost.

 

[Bobby_M]

You could get two spa panels and just salvage the breaker from one and double up. That way you have two 50s and can feed that from 100 amp in the main. You would be able to run 4 elements though some folks might be concerned about splitting a 50 to two 23amp loads with no intermediate breakers. I personally would not have a problem doing it.

 

[PaulB]

I like this idea Bobby. It is too close for my comfort because the real resistance I am sure varies quite a bit, but 4500W elements are a good option. I am thinking 2 elements with PWM control and the 3rd just a motor rated switch to use as a booster. I am not sure what the HLT plans are, but likely it will only power one at a time. Don't want to dim the entire neighborhood. Also I prefer to do some separate protection for each element, but price is going to be a big factor.

 

[poptarts]

fwiw, it took apart a 50a spa panel and just mounted the breaker in my control panel, you could do the same with multiple.

 

[PaulB]

Did you pull out the mounting parts also? I kind of like the idea of a legalish disconnect wired to an outlet. Then make whatever box and plug it in.

 

[Bobby_M]

The odds of the breaker fitting in your main panel is slim. There are at least 4 typical configurations depending on brand.

There is no problem running a pair of 5500w on 50 amp. The actual resistance does vary a little here and there but at most, I've seen it at 5600 at a full 240v. Odds are you have 235 or 230 volts so the actual power is lower and the current draw can be down near 22 amps. That's 44 amps on a 50. You're going through all this trouble anyway, why short yourself on power?

 

[BrunDog]

You're going through all this trouble anyway, why short yourself on power?

This is now my most favorite quote on HBT!

 

[PaulB]

I think my buddy wants to do 2x instant hot water heaters that he says will do 10 gpm at 180 degrees F for the HLT. I got to check into this and the costs. I was surprised I couldn't find a 90 or 100 amp residential gfci circuit breaker.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I think my buddy wants to do 2x instant hot water heaters that he says will do 10 gpm at 180 degrees F for the HLT. I got to check into this and the costs. I was surprised I couldn't find a 90 or 100 amp residential gfci circuit breaker.

In series? That's a pretty high flow rate!

 

[PaulB]

The hot water heaters would be in parallel. I am not sure what brand or how expensive they are. 5gpm is a common flow rate for houses, but 180 is high for temperature.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

That was kind of my point. The delta between your input and output temps usually dictates what sort of flow rate you can get. Not to be a nay-sayer but, assuming you're getting ~60-80*F input, its unlikely you'll get 120-100*F rise at 5 GPM.