1st Timer-would like to ferment naturally, but worried about risk

[fermentme]

Hi All!

I've purchased 4 bushels of organic apples (Binet Blanc, Haralson, Golden Russet and some crabs) from a few orchards that I'm preparing to press and blend and start fermenting.

I really enjoy spanish and french style ciders and I'd like to use only the apples' natural yeast to ferment with, but am slightly worried about spoilage. The workflow is still a bit confusing to me; Should I just wash the apples and juice them and let them start fermenting? Should I add sulfite immediately to be safer? If the saccharomyces are the only fermenters, the initial fermentation will take much longer than if I added a strain, correct? I also have a few packets of sacc. cervisae I could add in to kickstart them but I'm unsure. I feel like the more I read about fermentation the less I know.

Thank you all in advance for the guidance, if there is a better place to post this or if someone has links to threads where this is discussed please let me know.

 

[Whatsgoodmiley]

Rather than risk 4 bushels of apples you've purchased, I'd suggest you get a bowl, some cheesecloth, a few pressed apples, and make a starter for your wild yeast. Make a couple of these. Toss the ones that mold, and taste the ones that bubble. You may end up with pediococcus or some other lactic bacteria strain. Throw the best one into your batch. Add some of that yeast you have on hand with it after a few days or a week if you get cold feet.

 

[globell]

You do not add campden or sulphite or that will kill the wild yeast. Yes it's a risk. Just did 7 one gallon batches. 5 taste good great or awesome and two are swampy. DO NOT let it take forever to start. Add fermentation aid/yeast nutrient. Stressed yeast throw off flavours.
So basically ensure your sanitation is top knotch and if you are having the apples pressed ensure to tell the press that you are naturally fermenting with wild yeast so that they take care to sanitize effectively. Don't use apples with broken skin and no bruised/rotten spots and DO NOT USE apples off the ground. Ensure apples are rinsed well. I did two washes of fresh water.
Press the apples, pop the juice in your fermentation chamber (mine was a carboy) add yeast nutrients, bung and bubbler and it's started

I did one gallon batches to ensure that if things go south it's no big loss. I've also saved the lees from the one I liked best and will add that yeast to a larger batch! So yummy.

 

[Masbustelo]

Whatsgoodmiley has an excellent suggestion. Make it up a few days ahead of time so the starter from your apples is ready to add as soon as you press.

 

[Maylar]

Sulfites are still recommended for wild ferments to kill bacteria, but at a lower concentration. I think a 25 ppm addition is a good idea.

 

[madscientist451]

Hi All!

I've purchased 4 bushels of organic apples (Binet Blanc, Haralson, Golden Russet and some crabs) from a few orchards that I'm preparing to press and blend and start fermenting.

I really enjoy spanish and french style ciders and I'd like to use only the apples' natural yeast to ferment with, but am slightly worried about spoilage.

You're not going to get a French or Spanish style cider with the apples listed above. The French use mostly high tannin low acid cider apples, the Spanish cider makers use hundreds of different varieties known only to them.
But you can still make a your own wild yeast cider. Simply wash, press, pour in the carboy, add the airlock and keep in a cool place. You don't have to add anything. I make 30-40 gallons of cider a year and do 5-10 gallons with the wild yeast. Its varies from year to year, but so do the apples , so you just have to accept that.
With 4 bushels of apples you should be able to press at least 10 gallons of juice. I'd make at least 3 different batches, one a wild ferment and the other two with wine yeast or cider yeast.
I live in an apple producing area and can't get the apples you've listed so you're starting out good. You'll have to decide if you just want to use all the apples you have together or you want to be more careful with the blend.
By "the book" your apples have the following qualities:
Haralson is a eating/cooking cider apple with low acid, slight tartness
Golden Russet is a sweet aromatic
Binet Blanc I bedlieve is mis-named, I can't find any reference to it, perhaps you have Binet Rouge or Caville Blanc?
Binet Rouge is a french bittersweet
Caville Blanc is a french dessert apple
There are too many different crab apples out there so its hard to tell what you have.
If you can get apples like this in your area, and you want to make French cider, the best thing to do is to keep hunting around and see if you can round up some more bittersweets and bitter sharp apples to go with the mostly sweet apples you have. I'm always on the lookout for old apple trees in people's yards or along the road, you never know what you might find.
The tannin levels, acidity and sweetness in apples are different from year to year and from place to place. The variability makes it interesting and you just have to accept it and make a cider that is your own.

Unless your apples are getting soft, you have plenty of time, the traditional way in Europe is to let them "sweat" for a month or more in a cool place after gathering them.
I think the apples that ripen later in the season make better cider.
I buy/collect some in October and others in Novemeber and don't finish cider season until mid/late December.
There are many excellent hard cider books available, look on Amazon for the different ones and reviews.
You can keep it simple and just throw it together and have cider or you can make it as complicated as you want. Making different batches with different yeasts is a worthwhile experiment. One yeast is not always "better" its just different, although some yeasts I've tried I don't like at all.
If you are worried about wild ferment, watch some videos about the way cider is made in France. They let the apples sit and practically rot in the open, then they shovel them off the mud and grind them up with bits of leaves, and grass still present. The apples are pressed in an ancient press that looks like its been barely rinsed off. Its the way they've always done it.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuEVoqx-Zgc[/ame]

 

[fermentme]

Thanks everyone! Very overwhelmed with the responses. So helpful!

I picked up the New Cidermaker's Handbook a few weeks ago and have been pouring over that and internet resources, but it is a bit dense. It seems that, like Maylar said, a smaller amount of sulfites will not kill the typical wild yeast on apples (saccharomyces). I need to triple-check that, but can anyone chime in about that?

I think my new direction will be to make a yeast starter of each apple type and sweat my apples for a bit in my basement, and also get a few more fermentation vessels to create seperate batches so I'm not throwing all my eggs in one basket. If my apples start to spoil I will start fermenting them with a small amount of sulfites and then add some yeast nutrient. Thank you globell; sanitation is very important, especially in the city!

madscientist451, you are amazing, thank you for that video and advice. The french method is beautiful. The 2 bushels of "binet blanc" apples I believe are binet rouge or something similar. They have a very cottony mouthfeel and are definitely not sweet. Of the crab bushel I have, half is very bitter type, the other half very tannic. I'm counting on those to offset the binets and the bushel of half haralson/half golden russets. It's the best blend I could find think of with what was available in my area! I had a fantastic time picking them, can't wait to do it again next season!

 

[globell]

You're not going to get a French or Spanish style cider with the apples listed above. The French use mostly high tannin low acid cider apples, the Spanish cider makers use hundreds of different varieties known only to them.
But you can still make a your own wild yeast cider. Simply wash, press, pour in the carboy, add the airlock and keep in a cool place. You don't have to add anything. I make 30-40 gallons of cider a year and do 5-10 gallons with the wild yeast. Its varies from year to year, but so do the apples , so you just have to accept that.
With 4 bushels of apples you should be able to press at least 10 gallons of juice. I'd make at least 3 different batches, one a wild ferment and the other two with wine yeast or cider yeast.
I live in an apple producing area and can't get the apples you've listed so you're starting out good. You'll have to decide if you just want to use all the apples you have together or you want to be more careful with the blend.
By "the book" your apples have the following qualities:
Haralson is a eating/cooking cider apple with low acid, slight tartness
Golden Russet is a sweet aromatic
Binet Blanc I bedlieve is mis-named, I can't find any reference to it, perhaps you have Binet Rouge or Caville Blanc?
Binet Rouge is a french bittersweet
Caville Blanc is a french dessert apple
There are too many different crab apples out there so its hard to tell what you have.
If you can get apples like this in your area, and you want to make French cider, the best thing to do is to keep hunting around and see if you can round up some more bittersweets and bitter sharp apples to go with the mostly sweet apples you have. I'm always on the lookout for old apple trees in people's yards or along the road, you never know what you might find.
The tannin levels, acidity and sweetness in apples are different from year to year and from place to place. The variability makes it interesting and you just have to accept it and make a cider that is your own.

Unless your apples are getting soft, you have plenty of time, the traditional way in Europe is to let them "sweat" for a month or more in a cool place after gathering them.
I think the apples that ripen later in the season make better cider.
I buy/collect some in October and others in Novemeber and don't finish cider season until mid/late December.
There are many excellent hard cider books available, look on Amazon for the different ones and reviews.
You can keep it simple and just throw it together and have cider or you can make it as complicated as you want. Making different batches with different yeasts is a worthwhile experiment. One yeast is not always "better" its just different, although some yeasts I've tried I don't like at all.
If you are worried about wild ferment, watch some videos about the way cider is made in France. They let the apples sit and practically rot in the open, then they shovel them off the mud and grind them up with bits of leaves, and grass still present. The apples are pressed in an ancient press that looks like its been barely rinsed off. Its the way they've always done it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuEVoqx-Zgc

So awesome. Thanks for this!! Love it. Always learning!!

 

[1bottlerocket]

Cultural practices definitely vary from place to place. After having visited several cider produces now it has changed my whole view.

I have also been reading, The New Cider Maker's Handbook, and it has a lot of great information. He does recommend using a half amount of sulfites to kills bacteria if trying a wild yeast ferment.

I am planning on using a small dose of sulfites for my wild yeast ferment. I finally got enough confidence after reading the book and what to try if the cider runs into problems.

I finally managed to source 60l of fresh, unpasteurized apple juice from several farms so I will be able to try out several different techniques. I am also planning on trying a Keeved cider along with the natural fermented method. Good fun.

 

[MarkKF]

Gee I'm glad he wears rubber boots and coveralls for sanitation.