16.56%!!! Is this possible?!?

[GryphonBrew]

I brewed up a monster of a Wee Heavy with an OG of 1.122 on 7/8/11. During the first week of fermentation I was drinking a few Samichlaus and I decided to see how far I could push this one since I planned on ageing it until Christmas of 2012 anyway.

I read up on incremental feeding with yeast nutrient and DME and added 3 pounds of DME over a week period. According to BeerSmith that takes my OG to 1.146.

Anyway I checked the gravity today and I'm at 1.021!!! Is that possible?!? 1.146 to 1.021 = 16.56% ABV on this yeast strain?!?

I took really good care of it and controlled the temps, swirled up the bucket 3 times per day to keep everything in suspension, but it still seems like the final ABV is much higher than the 12% limit that Wyeast says about the Scottish Ale #1728 strain.

Thoughts?

 

[hoppymonkey]

What was your actual ingredient list?

 

[thegerm]

those numbers are hardly ever brick walls. they're more like inflection points where you can expect greater than 50% die off, or some other negative effect.

 

[GryphonBrew]

What was your actual ingredient list?

You'll see the Amber DME up top, but that's what I added along the fermentation.


Style: Strong Scotch Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.78 gal
Estimated OG: 1.152 SG
Estimated Color: 35.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 24.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs Amber Dry Extract (12.5 SRM) Dry Extract 10.91 %
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 50.91 %
2 lbs Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
2 lbs Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
2 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
8.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 1.82 %
4.0 oz Peat Smoked Malt (2.8 SRM) Grain 0.91 %
2.1 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 0.47 %
1.9 oz Black (Patent) Malt (470.0 SRM) Grain 0.44 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.90 %] (90 min) Hops 8.2 IBU
0.50 oz Warrior [15.80 %] (90 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.90 %] (15 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.20 %] (15 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.0 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2 lbs Brown Sugar, Light (8.0 SRM) Sugar 7.27 %
8.0 oz Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 1.82 %
8.0 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 1.82 %
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 1.82 %
Monster washed yeast cake Scottish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1728) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 21.00 lb

 

[GryphonBrew]

those numbers are hardly ever brick walls. they're more like inflection points where you can expect greater than 50% die off, or some other negative effect.

I kinda figured it wasn't an exact number, but was shocked to see it go so far beyond its "max" threshold. Seemed too good to be true.

 

[LVBen]

Are you certain of the 5.5 gallon measurement?

 

[LVBen]

Is it possible that the DME did not dissolve and never got eaten up by the yeast?

 

[hoppymonkey]

Is it possible that the DME did not dissolve and never got eaten up by the yeast?

He'll know that with a quick sip for sure

 

[GryphonBrew]

Are you certain of the 5.5 gallon measurement?

Very certain on that one.

 

[rollinred]

The last two that LVBen wrote are exactly my two thoughts.

Your volume could be off by even half gallon and this would make a big difference.

Did you boil the DME in water before pouring it in or not?

If not you probably have large balls of DME down at the bottom of the fermenter that will take forever for the yeast to get through. Basically, DME will turn in to a hard candy at the bottom of the fermenter and take a really long time to dissolve because it bunches up when you pour it in. This would mean that you are assuming your gravity was higher than it really is.

 

[GryphonBrew]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVBen
Is it possible that the DME did not dissolve and never got eaten up by the yeast?

He'll know that with a quick sip for sure

I boiled the additions in water and added yeast nutrient. I boiled them down really thick, almost to a LME consistancy, so as not to effect the total volume much.

While tasting the samples you can tell the abv is really high and the level of sweetness isn't very high at all.

 

[GryphonBrew]

The last two that LVBen wrote are exactly my two thoughts.

Your volume could be off by even half gallon and this would make a big difference.

Did you boil the DME in water before pouring it in or not?

If not you probably have large balls of DME down at the bottom of the fermenter that will take forever for the yeast to get through. Basically, DME will turn in to a hard candy at the bottom of the fermenter and take a really long time to dissolve because it bunches up when you pour it in. This would mean that you are assuming your gravity was higher than it really is.

When I made the DME additions the "signs" of fermentation took off again within a few hours. Not that airock activity means anything.

Is it possible for the boiled DME to do the same thing you mentioned as unboiled DME?

 

[Clementine]

Ok grab that strain of yeast and plate it and keep it forever!

Clem

P.S.

Send me a slant!

 

[LVBen]

While tasting the samples you can tell the abv is really high and the level of sweetness isn't very high at all.

Sounds like you've got some strong beer! I don't think 16-17% is unreasonable for a scottish ale yeast.

 

[pohldogg]

I've fed the fermentations on beers from 10-14%. Each time I've gotten final gravities that were 1.010-1.018. I've taking to using this for most beers over 9% to help with lower FGs.

 

[GryphonBrew]

Ok grab that strain of yeast and plate it and keep it forever!

Clem

P.S.

Send me a slant!

It's a 2nd generation already. I grabed it from a heather ale cake I did about a month prior. I'm deffinetly going to wash this one and use it again.

 

[GryphonBrew]

Sounds like you've got some strong beer! I don't think 16-17% is unreasonable for a scottish ale yeast.

Exciting! I was just shocked by the readings. I triple checked my temps and notes from the OG readings. I guess those abv limits from wyeast are lowballed for some reason.

 

[GryphonBrew]

I've fed the fermentations on beers from 10-14%. Each time I've gotten final gravities that were 1.010-1.018. I've taking to using this for most beers over 9% to help with lower FGs.

Good to know! Was your final abv typically above the "max" limit that the maker sugested?

 

[HHP]

It's a 2nd generation already. I grabed it from a heather ale cake I did about a month prior. I'm deffinetly going to wash this one and use it again.

You probably dont want to do that. Its awesome that this yeast performed as well as it did, especially with DME (as opposed to say, Dextrose) ... but this yeast is in bad shape right now.

If you want to use it again, go for it, but I would suggest growing it up all over again probably through a couple of generations from a small sample. Also, You will be growing the most alcohol tolerant guys from this strain ... and they might not give you the flavors you are looking for.

This is all just amateur speculation, but from what I have read ... I wouldn't just simply wash this yeast, and I wouldn't necessarily want to grow this yeast up.

 

[PaulHilgeman]

I have heard that yeast as both very attenuative and very high ABV tolerance. Just hearsay but this puts some hard numbers behind it.

 

[GryphonBrew]

You probably dont want to do that. Its awesome that this yeast performed as well as it did, especially with DME (as opposed to say, Dextrose) ... but this yeast is in bad shape right now.

If you want to use it again, go for it, but I would suggest growing it up all over again probably through a couple of generations from a small sample. Also, You will be growing the most alcohol tolerant guys from this strain ... and they might not give you the flavors you are looking for.

This is all just amateur speculation, but from what I have read ... I wouldn't just simply wash this yeast, and I wouldn't necessarily want to grow this yeast up.

Ya know, that's probably really good advice. They've already been worked to the bone. I'll lay them to rest properly.

 

[GryphonBrew]

I have heard that yeast as both very attenuative and very high ABV tolerance. Just hearsay but this puts some hard numbers behind it.

Yeah that was thought too. I tried to take really good care of them by adding yeast nutrient with each addition, swirling the bucket to keep suspension, and I controlled the temps especially in the begining, but I was still pretty blown away by their performance.

I guess we can call it part luck, part care.

 

[GryphonBrew]

I'm thinking about oaking this one for a few months. Any reasons to DO it or NOT do it?

 

[prrriiide]

I'm thinking about oaking this one for a few months. Any reasons to DO it or NOT do it?

I would try to find a used single malt barrel to age it in. Maybe an old MacAllan barrel...

 

[COLObrewer]

I . . . . . 1.021!!! Is that possible?!? 1.146 to 1.021 = 16.56% ABV on this yeast strain?!? . . . . . . .12% limit that Wyeast says about the Scottish Ale #1728 strain.

Thoughts?

I'm not surprised the McEwans yeasts (1728, wlp028) will go that high, they were raised on wee heavy and have some 20 odd different strains in them. For a nice balanced skotch ale try 8-9%.

 

[GryphonBrew]

I would try to find a used single malt barrel to age it in. Maybe an old MacAllan barrel...

Mmmmm who doesn't love the macallan? I've been on a lagavulin kick lately. I would have to read up on how to do that though. Don't you loose a lot of volume when aging in an actual barrel due to the "angel's share"?

 

[GryphonBrew]

I'm not surprised the McEwans yeasts (1728, wlp028) will go that high, they were raised on wee heavy and have some 20 odd different strains in them. For a nice balanced skotch ale try 8-9%.

Well I sure was shocked by it! The last one I did was around 8.6%, but it had a much smaller grain bill and OG. This one may be a little off balance, but by the end of the first pint I'm guessing most won't really care anymore!!!

 

[ChillWill]

Don't you loose a lot of volume when aging in an actual barrel due to the "angel's share"?

I thought the angels share was loss of abv, as some alcohol is lost through evaporation or soaks into the wood. Iirc single malt usually goes into the cask around the 70% mark. I'm sure someone can give more accurate information than me.

 

[GryphonBrew]

I thought the angels share was loss of abv, as some alcohol is lost through evaporation or soaks into the wood. Iirc single malt usually goes into the cask around the 70% mark. I'm sure someone can give more accurate information than me.

Hmmmm, interesting.

 

[LVBen]

I thought the angels share was loss of abv, as some alcohol is lost through evaporation or soaks into the wood. Iirc single malt usually goes into the cask around the 70% mark. I'm sure someone can give more accurate information than me.

When in doubt, ask Wikipedia:

"Angels' share" is a term for the portion (share) of a wine or distilled spirit's volume that is lost to evaporation during aging in oak barrels. The barrels are typically French or American oak. In low humidity conditions, the loss to evaporation may be primarily water. However, in higher humidities, more alcohol than water will evaporate, therefore reducing the alcoholic strength of the product. In humid climates, this loss of ethanol is associated with the growth of a darkly colored fungus, the Angels' Share fungus, Baudoinia compniacensis, on the exterior surfaces of buildings, trees and other vegetation, and anything else that happens to be nearby.[9]

 

[GryphonBrew]

When in doubt, ask Wikipedia:

"Angels' share" is a term for the portion (share) of a wine or distilled spirit's volume that is lost to evaporation during aging in oak barrels. The barrels are typically French or American oak. In low humidity conditions, the loss to evaporation may be primarily water. However, in higher humidities, more alcohol than water will evaporate, therefore reducing the alcoholic strength of the product. In humid climates, this loss of ethanol is associated with the growth of a darkly colored fungus, the Angels' Share fungus, Baudoinia compniacensis, on the exterior surfaces of buildings, trees and other vegetation, and anything else that happens to be nearby.[9]

Gotta love wikipedia, but I don't want to loose volume or abv, so I'm still thinking oak cubes for a few months. Mybe I'll soak them in some scotch first.

 

[GryphonBrew]

Just movd this one to secondary for aging and of course had o taste it. Man this thing is going to be good! Deffinelty going to oak it in a few months to add another layer of flavor to the whole thing. It's FULL of body and has a nice subtle smoke to it. Lot's of caramel, vanilla, and burntish brown sugar. And for the high ABV, im surprised at how smooth it is already.

 

[GryphonBrew]

Ok. I have a question on the oaking again. I've read up on it a alot, but there's one thing I'm still not sure on.

I will be oaking this on 2oz of Lagavulin soaked med toast french oak cubes for 11 months, then kegging for 1 month before serving... Is that enough time OFF of the oak or are you supposed to let it age again for an extended period after you pull it from the oak?