15' of tubing and only foam!

[ismellbananas]

I've kegged around 20 batches and have always had problems with my beers foaming up.
Here's my setup:
-15' of 3/16" ID 5/16" OD vinyl tubing
-Picnic taps and perlicks
-3 pin lock kegs with new o-rings
-Serving pressure from 2psi to 16psi
-Serving temperature: 38f
-Force carbonate at 12psi for a week at 38f
-Faucet and beer line chilled in the refrigerator

When I'm serving at 8 psi and over, I see no foam through the tubing all the way until the beer reaches the faucet and I get pretty much only foam at tap.
When I'm serving at 4 psi, the beer starts foaming halfway through the tubing and I'm pouring very little beer and a lot of foam.
The only way I can actually pour a beer is when I'm serving at 2 psi and even then only about 40% of the glass is filled with beer and the rest is foam.

I really do not know what I'm doing wrong! I just finished building my kegerator and have a party coming up, and don't want to serve foam.

How do I fix this?!

 

[day_trippr]

If you are carbing the beer at 12psi and 38°F, and dispensing the beer at 38°F, you might try dispensing the beer at 12 psi. You already have the line for that.

Dropping the dispensing pressure that much is just allowing dissolved CO2 to burst out of solution, which is likely at least half your problem...

Cheers!

 

[jekeane]

I carb at 12 psi and serve at 12 psi I have 8 kegs half are 5 gallon half are 3 gallons all have 10' of 3/16 id line with picnic taps no foam. Temp is 36-38

 

[Rockn_M]

I've kegged around 20 batches and have always had problems with my beers foaming up.
Here's my setup:
-15' of 3/16" ID 1/4" OD vinyl tubing
-Picnic taps and perlicks
-3 pin lock kegs with new o-rings
-Serving pressure from 2psi to 16psi
-Serving temperature: 38f
-Force carbonate at 12psi for a week at 38f
-Faucet and beer line chilled in the refrigerator

When I'm serving at 8 psi and over, I see no foam through the tubing all the way until the beer reaches the faucet and I get pretty much only foam at tap.
When I'm serving at 4 psi, the beer starts foaming halfway through the tubing and I'm pouring very little beer and a lot of foam.
The only way I can actually pour a beer is when I'm serving at 2 psi and even then only about 40% of the glass is filled with beer and the rest is foam.

I really do not know what I'm doing wrong! I just finished building my kegerator and have a party coming up, and don't want to serve foam.

How do I fix this?!

I've always had issues with picnic taps foaming up. They just aren't made that well. Have you tried a different picnic tap to see if that helps? Or have you taken the tap apart to make sure that there isn't any debris causing foaming issues?

If you are using perlicks taps make sure the taps and shanks are cold. I added a small computer fan blowing up the kegerator shaft making sure the tap shanks are cold. Once I did this the foaming issue pretty much stopped for me.

I hope this helps.

 

[barnaclebob]

I dont understand are you using picnic taps or Perlic faucets?

When you are serving at 12 PSI how fast does the beer/foam come out? A normal rate or very quickly? Pictures of your setup could help too.

 

[iBrewR]

-15' of 3/16" ID 1/4" OD vinyl tubing

All the tubing I use has a 7/16" OD. Are you using some cheap HD stuff not made for dispensing beer?

 

[casualbrewer]

That is odd. I serve at 14 psi between 32 and 34 degrees with 8' of line and it comes out perfect...

 

[mtyquinn]

Is there a big temperature shift from the keg through the lines?

 

[pigroaster]

Carb at 24 psi, Shake for three minutes on it's side , let sit for 24 hours and take off pressure and set at 12 and leave it for a day and serve at 38. Should have no issues!

 

[day_trippr]

So, we have a simple, "set and forget" model here that resulted in major dispensing problems, and your proposed solution is to use a much trickier carbonation method.

Interesting...

Cheers!

 

[MagicMatt]

Carb at 24 psi, Shake for three minutes on it's side , let sit for 24 hours and take off pressure and set at 12 and leave it for a day and serve at 38. Should have no issues!

Don't do this. Avoid the shaking, it's unnecessary and can only lead to more problems. There are much better ways to quickly carb a keg than shaking it.

I agree with iBrewR, you're lines are not made for beer dispensing. They are only 1/16" thick (ID of 3/16, OD of 4/16)!!!! There is absolutely no resistance in those compared to normal 3/16" beer line. That's your problem!

You'd need about 68ft of line to properly restrict the flow. Replace your lines with correct beer lines and the problem should resolve itself. Also, your serving pressure should be identical to your carbing pressure if you carb and serve at the same temp (which you do, 38°F). Otherwise you'll either lose or gain carbonation depending on if you're over or under.

 

[day_trippr]

I've never seen 3/16" ID - 1/4" OD tubing - except in erroneous Amazon advertisements.
I suspect the OP's lines are actually 5/16" OD - which you can find in any respectable hardware store sold under the Watts label.

While not ideal as it'll contract and expand a bit every time a faucet is opened and closed, I'm not sure it would be the root cause of a dispensing problem...


Cheers!

 

[brewbama]

I have 5' of tube and no foam. Dial back the pressure!

 

[day_trippr]

Wrong answer.
But thanks for playing

Cheers!

 

[GnenieGone]

All I can say is what I have. About 4ft tubing on all 4 lines with 9psi. The lighter session IPA and HB hard Lemonaid come out with about 1/3 foam, but RIS/DIPA do not. Do you have leaks?? Are you sure your regulator is reading properly? My kegorator is set to 38F also. Tubing is 5/16in ID.

 

[gatsby174]

I'm going to guess there is a part of the keezer that is actually colder than 38...

 

[KegHead]

Don't do this. Avoid the shaking, it's unnecessary and can only lead to more problems. There are much better ways to quickly carb a keg than shaking it.

I agree with iBrewR, you're lines are not made for beer dispensing. They are only 1/16" thick (ID of 3/16, OD of 4/16)!!!! There is absolutely no resistance in those compared to normal 3/16" beer line. That's your problem!

You'd need about 68ft of line to properly restrict the flow. Replace your lines with correct beer lines and the problem should resolve itself. Also, your serving pressure should be identical to your carbing pressure if you carb and serve at the same temp (which you do, 38°F). Otherwise you'll either lose or gain carbonation depending on if you're over or under.

Can you explain the 68' of line comment?

 

[MagicMatt]

Can you explain the 68' of line comment?

Sure, though it seems day_trippr is correct and this is not the case, and more likely that the OP made a mistake, as I can not find any 1/16" walled pvc tubing anywhere.

But to answer your question, with a wall thickness that small (as a cross section it only accounts for two-fifths the diameter) it will decrease resistance substantially. The closest values I could find was I believe for 1/8" wall and was 0.18 lbs/ft, which I lessened to 0.15 lbs/ft to account for the halved wall thickness. Using the [very basic] line length formula, you would get:

L = (keg_pressure - (height/2) - 1psi)/ (line resistance)

L = (12 - (2/2) - 1) / (0.15)

L = 66.6667​

I rounded up a little.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, 3/16" ID - 5/16" OD tubing has a 1/16" wall thickness.
Tubing would actually have to have a 1/32" wall thickness to be 3/16" ID & 1/4" OD, which is what really makes the proposition unlikely...

Cheers!

 

[ismellbananas]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I just checked my tubing, and the OD is indeed 5/16" like some of you pointed out. I need to correct that in my opening post. The tubing is meant for dispensing beverage under pressure.

I've tried dispensing at 12 psi as well. My beer flows out super fast and I have a glass full of foam in less than a second. Almost like it has no resistance at all.
The perlicks don't stand a chance either. I've used regular chrome faucets as well, and every single faucet has pretty much dispensed only foam.
I have even tried adding 15" of 3/16" RO tubing inside the dip tube and this hasn't helped either. I do not want to use the plastic epoxy mixers for reasons already discussed on this forum. I'm pretty sure though, that my tubing length should provide enough resistance to eliminate any quick-fixes anyway.

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong!

 

[ismellbananas]

Is there a big temperature shift from the keg through the lines?

There really is no temperature shift. I wrap the beer line around the keg and place the faucet on top of the keg when not in use.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm going to suggest that your secondary pressure gauge is way off, reading lower than the regulator pressure. If you can, attach a new 0-30 psi gauge to a keg gas QD and pop that onto one of your kegs. It's probably at 20 psi or something because that's the only way you're going to firehose beer out of 15 feet of tubing.

 

[amcclai7]

the OD on your lines should be 7/16" I don't care what the lines you have were sold as you need to buy some of this: https://www.morebeer.com/products/beverage-tubing-316-id-foot.html

"Technical Specifications: 3/16" line provides 2.2 lbs of restriction per foot. Ideally pounds of resistance should equal pounds of applied pressure. 3/16" line holds 1/6 of an ounce per foot. Made from PVC. 7/16" OD"

Everything else you've done is correct. Also, with the correct line you should be able to get away with 10" ft or less. I really don't think temp is an issue. I've often served my beers around 45F or so (they taste much, much better at that temp) with no foaming issues. Even a temp differential, unless its something insane, is not going to cause that big of a foaming issue.

I can't imagine its anything but the line....unless...and this is a big unless, perhaps your regulator is reading incorrectly (I once had one were the needle would stick in certain places) and you are actually carbing your beers at way too high of a PSI. Very, very unlikely. Start with buying the correct lines first.

EDIT: I didn't read the previous comment before posting this. Perhaps its more likely than I thought.

 

[ismellbananas]

I'm going to suggest that your secondary pressure gauge is way off, reading lower than the regulator pressure. If you can, attach a new 0-30 psi gauge to a keg gas QD and pop that onto one of your kegs. It's probably at 20 psi or something because that's the only way you're going to firehose beer out of 15 feet of tubing.

Thanks. I'm going to try doing that sometime.

Here's what I do.
I carbonate at 12 psi for a week. Disconnect the co2. Bleed the keg of co2. I put the gas back on with the co2 regulator pressure knob all the way loose. I turn the knob until I hear the faintest of noise of gas entering the keg. I try pouring from there with minute increments on the knob all the way until I get to about 15-16 psi and have really not been able to find that sweet spot.
Even if my gauge was off, would I not have been able to dispense beer at some point?

Edit: I had a pressure gauge and got around to doing this.
I had an empty keg that I used to perform this test. I set the regulator to 12 psi and waited for a bit. I took off the gas QD and connected the QD with the external pressure gauge... 28 psi!! I can't believe my regulator gauge is so damn off! I've been severely over carbonating my beers all this while. I guess I'll go buy another regulator as I can't seem to find a way to calibrate this.
Thanks for your help guys!

 

[stpug]

Not if it's over carbonated.

And you want 7/16" OD tubing on the liquid side.

 

[BigTerp]

I use a hair under 11' of 5/16" OD ATP Vinyl-Flex tubing from Amazon. Pours great at 11-12 PSI at 38 degrees. Zero foaming issues. My buddy has used the same 5/16" OD tubing for the past few years on his 6 tap keezer with great results. You don't need 7/16" OD tubing. But you should be using beverage tubing.

 

[KegHead]

Sure, though it seems day_trippr is correct and this is not the case, and more likely that the OP made a mistake, as I can not find any 1/16" walled pvc tubing anywhere.

But to answer your question, with a wall thickness that small (as a cross section it only accounts for two-fifths the diameter) it will decrease resistance substantially. The closest values I could find was I believe for 1/8" wall and was 0.18 lbs/ft, which I lessened to 0.15 lbs/ft to account for the halved wall thickness. Using the [very basic] line length formula, you would get:

L = (keg_pressure - (height/2) - 1psi)/ (line resistance)

L = (12 - (2/2) - 1) / (0.15)

L = 66.6667​

I rounded up a little.

Thanks for the reply!

Ive always based my formulas off of internal flow diameter, and never wall thickness...this is the first ive seen wall thickness used in this contex in place of the ID.

Typically 3/16 ID is said to have between 1.5-3 psi/ft of pressure drop.

 

[FortMillBrew]

If you are carbing the beer at 12psi and 38°F, and dispensing the beer at 38°F, you might try dispensing the beer at 12 psi. You already have the line for that.

Dropping the dispensing pressure that much is just allowing dissolved CO2 to burst out of solution, which is likely at least half your problem...

Cheers!

^THIS

And get rid of your picnic taps.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks. I'm going to try doing that sometime.

Here's what I do.
I carbonate at 12 psi for a week. Disconnect the co2. Bleed the keg of co2. I put the gas back on with the co2 regulator pressure knob all the way loose. I turn the knob until I hear the faintest of noise of gas entering the keg. I try pouring from there with minute increments on the knob all the way until I get to about 15-16 psi and have really not been able to find that sweet spot.
Even if my gauge was off, would I not have been able to dispense beer at some point?

Edit: I had a pressure gauge and got around to doing this.
I had an empty keg that I used to perform this test. I set the regulator to 12 psi and waited for a bit. I took off the gas QD and connected the QD with the external pressure gauge... 28 psi!! I can't believe my regulator gauge is so damn off! I've been severely over carbonating my beers all this while. I guess I'll go buy another regulator as I can't seem to find a way to calibrate this.
Thanks for your help guys!

You can just change the gauge on the regulator as that's really what's failing you. The reg might be crap too, but that's not evident yet.

 

[ismellbananas]

I use a hair under 11' of 5/16" OD ATP Vinyl-Flex tubing from Amazon. Pours great at 11-12 PSI at 38 degrees. Zero foaming issues. My buddy has used the same 5/16" OD tubing for the past few years on his 6 tap keezer with great results. You don't need 7/16" OD tubing. But you should be using beverage tubing.

That's the tubing I use!

Definitely the wonky regulator gauge that's causing issues.

 

[ismellbananas]

You can just change the gauge on the regulator as that's really what's failing you. The reg might be crap too, but that's not evident yet.

I'll go ahead and get a new regulator as the high pressure gauge on this has been zero throughout... even on a full tank. Certainly a lot of things wrong with this regulator.

 

[thekraken]

What regulator was it?

 

[barnaclebob]

I'll go ahead and get a new regulator as the high pressure gauge on this has been zero throughout... even on a full tank. Certainly a lot of things wrong with this regulator.

Lol, and you didn't think to mention this until now????