120V or 240V??

[LamIAm]

I am brewing this Monday and was hoping to have my e-keggle ready. I'm nearly there but am at a crossroads on options.

My father (a licensed electrician) is wiring a 240V outlet in my garage but not for another few weeks. My house used to have a hot tub out back so there's 240V going out there already. I am an extract brewer and would only really need to get 2-3 gallons boiling (for now). I do have aspirations to go AG in the next 2 - 3 years.

My questions are:

1) Should I even go with the e-keggle route or should I use my 5 gallon kettle since (right now) I would never need the full kettle volume? And if I went AG, I could still use this to heat my sparge water.
2) Could I just mount a 5500 watt 240V element but with a plug for 120V? Then if/when I decide to switch to 240V, I would change the plug? That would give me (5500 watts/4) 1375 watts, which is enough for my 2 - 3 gallon boil. The power cord would be 12 gauge so it should handle the 120V or 240V.

I'm trying to keep cost down so not investing in a SSR or a DPST switch to kill 240V would be nice. I'd still have a switch inline for the 120V set up.

 

[skunkfunk]

How do you figure it's 5500/4? Going from 240V single phase to 120V single phase should be 2750W, which is too much for a 20A outlet/breaker and too much for #12 wire.

 

[jeffmeh]

If you know you are eventually going to 240v, then I suggest you plan for that and try to minimize purchasing components or building assemblies that you will end up having to replace. E.g., you will need 10 gauge wire to safely run a 5500w element at 240v, you can buy suitably rated 240v plugs and receptacles and a relatively inexpensive DFPST switch and wire them for 120v, then rewire them for 240v when you get there, etc. What are you doing for a GFCI?

 

[LamIAm]

How do you figure it's 5500/4? Going from 240V single phase to 120V single phase should be 2750W, which is too much for a 20A outlet/breaker and too much for #12 wire.

I totally could be wrong as I am trying to research from my phone and have read hundreds of posts, but I thought the conversion from 240V to 120V isn't half (5500 / 2 = 2750) it is a quarter (5500 / 4 = 1350).

If you know you are eventually going to 240v, then I suggest you plan for that and try to minimize purchasing components or building assemblies that you will end up having to replace. E.g., you will need 10 gauge wire to safely run a 5500w element at 240v, you can buy suitably rated 240v plugs and receptacles and a relatively inexpensive DFPST switch and wire them for 120v, then rewire them for 240v when you get there, etc. What are you doing for a GFCI?

So actually build it out for 240v but plug into 120v? That's pretty darn smart compared to my idea.

 

[jeffmeh]

How do you figure it's 5500/4? Going from 240V single phase to 120V single phase should be 2750W, which is too much for a 20A outlet/breaker and too much for #12 wire.

When running a 5500w element at 240v one needs a 30a breaker and 10 awg wire.

Power = Voltage squared / Resistance. Resistance is constant. When cutting the voltage in half, the power is cut to 1/4.

 

[skunkfunk]

I totally could be wrong as I am trying to research from my phone and have read hundreds of posts, but I thought the conversion from 240V to 120V isn't half (5500 / 2 = 2750) it is a quarter (5500 / 4 = 1350).

My mistake, you are correct. Power is proportional to the square and whatnot.

 

[soccerRef]

You are correct on the fact that you will get 1/4 of the original when plugging into 120V [ the output varies by the square of the applied voltage, in this case you are feeding it 1/2 the volt's , so 1/4 the power output... if you fed it 1/4 the volts, you would get 1/16 the output]

I also vote with the previous poster, do everything as if you were using 240, besides the plug, then you only have to wire a new plug when it comes time to change over!

 

[LamIAm]

I realized I didn't answer the GFCI question. I need to discuss this with my father when he gets back but the previous owner of my house had left everything intact from the spa panel. If it all checks out, that will serve as the GFCI (correct??)

For the garage, I'll ask him his best practice on adding protection there. My wife wants the 240V in the garage for our second range/oven (because we need two???).

 

[LamIAm]

Well confirmed, spa panel looks like it should work. I doubt the wifey will let me yank it off the house to make a "portable" disconnect.

Still need to do more research. The Midwest Electric Spa Panel from HD seems to be the popular choice. If I am using it for 120V and plugging it into a 15A 120V GFCI outlet, do I need to worry that its a 50 AMP circuit in the panel?

 

[bknifefight]

A 5500W element will never work on 15A. To calculate the amps needed, you divide the wattage (5500) by the volts (120) 5500/120 = 45.83 Amps. If you do 240 volts, you will only need 22.92.

To answer your question, a 50 amp breaker is not going to be an issue hooked up to a 30A line.

 

[jeffmeh]

A 5500W element will never work on 15A. To calculate the amps needed, you divide the wattage (5500) by the volts (120) 5500/120 = 45.83 Amps. If you do 240 volts, you will only need 22.92.

To answer your question, a 50 amp breaker is not going to be an issue hooked up to a 30A line.

Actually, since a 5500w, 240v element will only provide 1375w (5500/4) at 120v, it will draw 11.46a (1375/120). It still makes sense to choose wire and components rated for the 22.92a draw if one plans to eventually use it at 240v.

Also, the 50a GFCI breaker will not be an issue for wire and components rated for 30a because there should be a 30a breaker in the main breaker panel providing overcurrent protection. If the panel breaker were, say 50a, then all wire and components would need to be rated for 50a.

 

[whoaru99]

Right, and the reason is that 5500 watts is the result of 240 volts applied to the resistance of the element. The element will not attempt to draw 5500w from a 120V supply because the element resistance doesn't materially change based on supply voltage.

5500W from 240V means the element resistance is 10.47 ohms. If you factor 120V with the element resistance of 10.47 ohms you get 1375 watts, just as has been previously mentioned.

 

[BxBrewer]

Extract brewer here as well. I'm able to do full 6 gallon boils with 120v . I'm simply using a GFI outlet and switch in a box. I simply turn it on and off.

 

[iijakii]

Damn, I think you're the only extract brewer I've seen with tri's, nice. Do you get a good boil with just 2kw? It's interesting how differing wattage requirements seem to be. There are a lot of people that say they top out around 5g, then other people like you who are boiling 6g without insulation.

 

[BxBrewer]

Damn, I think you're the only extract brewer I've seen with tri's, nice. Do you get a good boil with just 2kw? It's interesting how differing wattage requirements seem to be. There are a lot of people that say they top out around 5g, then other people like you who are boiling 6g without insulation.

I get full rolling boils no problem. Im using a LWD 2000w element. I do have to cover some otherwise the wort jumps out of the pot. Also helps keeping down the boil off. My GFI outlet box and switch plugs into a dedicated 120v outlet "air conditioner" thats on its own 30A fuse. I have zero problems with getting up to a boil. If i want to bring it up faster i put a couple of towels over it.

 

[LamIAm]

That is pretty slick! I've also heard people having issues with full boils at 2K watts but that's awesome you can do it. We'll see this weekend once I get all of my parts together.

 

[chickens4life]

I also do full boils with 2KW element (the ULWD one from Rheem). i have even brewed 1/4 barrel batches and a pre-boil volume of ~9.5 gallons with it (took a long time to get to a boil, but it worked).

I suspect that one of the reasons that people are having trouble getting full boils with 2KW is that they are using to wide of a kettle. You need to be able to add heat faster than it is lost through evaporation of off the surface in order to maintain a boil.

Here is my kettle just starting to break a boil on an 8 gallon pre-boil batch

 

[wilserbrewer]

I find this very refreshing to see people using simple 2000w kettles! General consensus on the board often is that you NEED 240v, spa panel, a controller, a pid, a ssr, a pwm, etc. etc. and it is simply not true! I think a lot of people are discouraged to try e-brewing due to the misportrayed required complexity.

The last thing you need for a 2000w kettle is a controller, as there really is no need to turn it down...a simple 2000w kettle can be built for peanuts and still beats propane IMHO!

I suspect that one of the reasons that people are having trouble getting full boils with 2KW is that they are using to wide of a kettle. You need to be able to add heat faster than it is lost through evaporation of off the surface in order to maintain a boil.

Exactly! I also think keggles are likely energy hungry with the large surface area and the additional base and top acting like cooling fins.

Cheers!

 

[atoughram]

I find this very refreshing to see people using simple 2000w kettles! General consensus on the board often is that you NEED 240v, spa panel, a controller, a pid, a ssr, a pwm, etc. etc. and it is simply not true! I think a lot of people are discouraged to try e-brewing due to the misportrayed required complexity.

The last thing you need for a 2000w kettle is a controller, as there really is no need to turn it down...a simple 2000w kettle can be built for peanuts and still beats propane IMHO!

Cheers!

I'd still add an SSVR to a 2KW element, so that you have the ability to "simmer".

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'd still add an SSVR to a 2KW element, so that you have the ability to "simmer".

Interesting, what do you simmer, gumbo? Slight mash adjustments for BIAB? Curious / thanks!

 

[jeffmeh]

A controller for an element is not necessary if the element at 100% power for the wort volume in the specific BK configuration provides acceptable boil vigor (think Goldilocks, not too hot, not too cold, just right). Some, like wilserbrewer if I remember previous posts correctly, can hit that sweet spot.

On the other hand, a controller enables one to apply more power to reduce heating times, and dial-in the desired boil vigor. Either method can work.

 

[wilserbrewer]

OK, perhaps a controller for 2 kw if doing smaller batches, but for 5 gal batches with a large enough kettle, I have never felt the need to turn down the power.

 

[LamIAm]

Any reason I couldn't mount or have welded the universal mount below? I can't find a 1" lock nut locally but the Ace store had these. The one I got is slightly curved for the body of a water heater tank.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would source a SS lock nut. That flange is likely not SS, and welding it to your kettle would be difficult and costly!

You might find a copper or brass nut locally.

 

[BxBrewer]

Any reason I couldn't mount or have welded the universal mount below? I can't find a 1" lock nut locally but the Ace store had these. The one I got is slightly curved for the body of a water heater tank.

Theres a good chance thats zinc plated. Also if you use a ripple style element that your going to have a hard time screwing it in unless mounted well off the bottom. Why not take a look at Brewers hardware for a better solution ? Im thankful i did.

 

[LamIAm]

What if I found a non zinc plated? I seriously could not find anything locally that is open this weekend. I was hoping to have this built for Monday's brew.

Does the flange actually touch the water? I figure if I find one safe for a water heater, it should be safe for the brew...I mean, you do drink hot tap water (ok, that's a stretch). And if water is touching or leaking through the threads of the element, I got bigger issues.

Ideally, I probably should use my propane burner this time and source the correct parts. I was just super anxious to use my new e keggle

 

[BxBrewer]

Your going to have a tough time to find someone that would weld zinc. Not to mention welding zinc to stainless wouldn't work.

 

[LamIAm]

I am going to return this one because of the zinc issue. I figure I already ingest enough poison that when I can mitigate, I should.

Off to go find a 1" lock nut somewhere...

 

[BxBrewer]

I am going to return this one because of the zinc issue. I figure I already ingest enough poison that when I can mitigate, I should.

Off to go find a 1" lock nut somewhere...

Since you have a burner why not put a triclover fitting in ? That way your not married to plugging it in and can cap it off and use your burner. I made my kettle this way so i can go over to a friends house and brew outside.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I have seen people use a threaded copper coupling adapter in lieu of a lock nut, I believe the are available at Home Depot, lowes or ace hardware.

Will not work with ripple style element of course.

 

[atoughram]

Interesting, what do you simmer, gumbo? Slight mash adjustments for BIAB? Curious / thanks!

In my case/process final hop additions and the ability to keep the kettle from boiling over. I've never brewed BIAB but from what I've read, an SSVR on the element could be handy for adjusting mash temps as you have mentioned.

Gumbo? Nope.... Dungeness Crab? Maybe...

 

[augiedoggy]

What if I found a non zinc plated? I seriously could not find anything locally that is open this weekend. I was hoping to have this built for Monday's brew.

Does the flange actually touch the water? I figure if I find one safe for a water heater, it should be safe for the brew...I mean, you do drink hot tap water (ok, that's a stretch). And if water is touching or leaking through the threads of the element, I got bigger issues.

Ideally, I probably should use my propane burner this time and source the correct parts. I was just super anxious to use my new e keggle

FYI My tank less water heater says its not safe for potable drinking water.