1 BBL system questions

[g-love]

I found this while I was playing around the other day:

http://conical-fermenter.com/about/attachment/1-bbl-brewing-system/

I have about $5,000 that I keep for hobby money. I go through phases and recycle it through all kinds of different things. I have used it for everything from sportbikes to my current Jeep project which I am basically done with.

My newest thing is brewing. I have brewed a few times (extract), but I have always loved and appreciated good beer, so that part is not a new thing. Anyway, I've caught the bug and feel like using my money for a really nice setup. I have been toying with the idea of a nano. I am totally realistic about my lack of knowledge and experience, and if I did something like this it would not be my job, but something really cool to do for a new experience. Even if I just broke even on the ingredients, I'd be brewing, meeting some new people, and having a good time. I also understand there are tons of legalities and other headaches that can come along with this. I intend on doing much more research before I lay down that money, but I wanted to just get some dialogue started to help me think the equipment part of it through.

That being said..... My questions are:

1. If you had $4k - $5k to drop on brewing stuff, would this be an option you would consider? Why or why not?

2. If not, what route would you go for a very small nano setup?

3. In your opinion, what type of heating setup would be the most effective to use with a system like this?

4. In addition to the purchase of this for $3k, what additional costs for equipment would I be looking at assuming I would want to automate it? When I say automate, I am thinking pumps and whatnot, not 100% automation to the point that I can set it and forget it.

Any comments are appreciated, and again I know I have a lot to learn, but I like to really jump into things. For me it's all about the experience....

 

[BrewSpook]

If you really want to learn and enjoy the fruits of your labor, I would suggest saving your money and follow these steps:

1. Do a ton of reading on here about going all grain
2. Build a small 5 gallon all grain system and do a dozen batches on that
3. Build a kegerator and ferm cabinet
4. Build a larger 1/2 bbl or even 1bbl system yourself

You will learn a ton, and since I imagine you are pretty handy, you will enjoy it alot more and maybe save yourself some $ for more toys.

Although that setup is pretty slick.

 

[g-love]

Thanks BrewSpook. I have been reading a ton and I'll definitely keep it up. I also have all the stuff to build my keezer and a ferm cabinet. Haven't built either yet, but I've just recently pulled all of my supplies together for them.

 

[rmullins]

http://morebeer.com/search/103502/beerwinecoffee/coffeewinebeer/BrewSculptures

I was in the same situation (without the rotating phases of hobbies) and I got the 10 gallon tippy dump system, full digital smart controls. They didn't have the $300 stainless option when I got mine so I just stuck with the base frame.

I think with the Stout system you would run into 2 things
1. 1 bbl is a crap loada beer for a homebrew. I'd have trouble going through 3 batches a year
2. I haven't spec'd it out but you definitely have more costs to factor in with that 1 bbl brewery (heating, stands, cooling, temp control for fermentation), not to mention the obvious that your costs/brew session will be much more than a 10 gallon system

 

[Brewpastor]

I agree with the start smaller and learn approach. I also say invest wisely so would suggest a simple Keggle set-up.

 

[g-love]

Rmullins, those are pretty sweet too. I will definitely check those out. One thing I worry about is buying small and then having to upgrade soon after. That gets expensive too.

I also like the option of building a system. I have a welder so that's one thing that'd help me keep cost down and have more money available for other cool brew stuff.

 

[JuanMoore]

I have to agree with BrewSpook's advice. A homebrew scale system will teach you what you need to know so that you can choose or build the larger system that will work best for you when you reach that point.

I know you mentioned looking into it at some point, but right now is the time to look into the state and local liquor and zoning laws and requirements if you're serious about ever brewing beer to sell. There aren't many places in the US that even make nano-brewing a possibility. If you can do it, go for it! Just be prepared that it might not be feasible, and if it is you'll need to throw a lot of time, money and effort into the red tape to make it happen. Even just on the federal level (usually the easiest part), you need an approved brewery location, and residential structures don't qualify.

It's not my intention to discourage anyone. I just think that since it's often the toughest part of opening a brewery, the licensing requirements should be one of the first things looked at.

As for the system you linked, $2K is a tight budget to get it operational. You'd still need burners (or elements), pump/s, hoses, fittings, fermentation temp control, etc, and I'd want at least one more fermenter. All of those small parts add up fast, and that's why a used turn-key 1bbl system can sell for $8-10K.

 

[g-love]

Juan-

I hear you about the legalities, and like I said that's clearly something I would take seriously. I guess more than anything I am looking for a really nice AG homebrew setup, that makes brewing fun and simple, and that I could POSSIBLY turn into a VERY small nano. I do appreciate the idea of how much it would cost to get that setup operational b/c that is a big part of why I wanted to talk about this. I don't mind spending the money I have set a side, but I don't want to over run my budget. I don't want to buy a bunch of bling and then not end up having the money to use it.

So, if you guys think this is overkill, which direction do I go? Nice brewstand with some keggles? Like some others have mentioned? I am not opposed to something smaller, it's not an ego thing with me. I just don't want to spend a bunch on a small setup and then have to turn around in a year and spend a bunch more because I didn't get what I wanted.

I am capable of building most of a brewstand with the exception of the electrical part. I have no clue about electrical.

 

[hatfieldenator]

Invest in a small 10 gallon system and you can always use it as your experimental system if you ever decide to go bigger/have a nano brewery someday. Even the biggest brewerys keep 10 gallon systems on hand for formulating recipes and such. Have you seen the Brew-Magic System by Sabco? Its a nice set up and everything you'd need to get started. Its pricey, but the quality is top notch. Many of the big craft brewers use it for experimenting. Dogfish Head actually got started on one. The morebeer systems are another nice option and can be more customized to your liking.

 

[hatfieldenator]

Oh and for heating I personally use an electric HERMS system for the HLT and Mashing. I take my wort outside for the boil and use propane. I like this set up because I can do most of my brew day indoors. In the future I'll probably be upgrading to an indoor electric boil kettle also so I can do all of my brewing inside. For small systems electric is a nice, convienent way to go. And be careful, $4-5K can go really quick in this hobby!

 

[g-love]

Great response Hatfield. I have seen the SABCO, and that's not a bad idea either. How much did your HERMS system cost you?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Even just on the federal level (usually the easiest part), you need an approved brewery location, and residential structures don't qualify.

Jaun,

I hate to burst your bubble but that is not true. Blind Bat Brewery here on Long Island is a federally licensed brewery that operates out of his garage. Their URL is: http://blindbatbrewery.com/page2/page2.html

 

[Jumbo82]

+1 on learning small and moving up. You could even do a dozen batches with a cheap little 5 gallon all-grain set-up and then move up to the one barrel. There really isn't much difference in the process, so if you can make good beer on a 5 gallon scale you'll be ready for the 1 barrel scale. I did 10 gallon batches for a year before I build my dad and I built a one barrel brewery https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/squam-lakes-brewery-pictures-144764/. The only differences for me were switching from using an immersion chiller to a plate chiller, and switching from propane to electric. So I would recommend starting off with something like the Thermonator from Blichmann (this unit is really overkill for 5 gallon batches, but a necessity for one barrel chilling so you might as well get use to cleaning, sanitizing, and running it sooner rather than later).

If your goal is to make a commercial nano brewery you should be aware of some of the upfront costs aside from equipment. You'll need to put up a $1000 Brewer's Bond with the TTB before you will be issued a Brewer's Notice. In New Hampshire I also had to pay $1200 to the NH Liquor Commission for my yearly Beverage Manufacturer's License before being issued that license. This fee varies from state to state, but on the nano scale $100 per month is nothing to sneeze at. You'll have to pay incorporation fees, state and federal taxes, and some other minor things like that. I got up and running for $10-$15k (I have since spent more buying additional conical fermenters). I'm not saying that $4-$5k isn't doable, but you'll have to seriously budget your money and build most of the equipment yourself. Good luck with your new obsession!

 

[Jumbo82]

Jaun,

I hate to burst your bubble but that is not true. Blind Bat Brewery here on Long Island is a federally licensed brewery that operates out of his garage. Their URL is: http://blindbatbrewery.com/page2/page2.html

You just can't brew commercially in a residential dwelling. So the basement of a house is off limits. And an attached garage is also off limits. A detached garage is fine since its not a dwelling. I brew commercially in a barn.

 

[g-love]

As far as the residential part is concerned, I'll build a nice shed if I need to. I'm not too worried about that part.

 

[g-love]

Jumbo - good info. My wife and I are talking about a trip up north soon, maybe we'll pop in and see your place if you'd be willing to show it off.

 

[JuanMoore]

Jaun,

I hate to burst your bubble but that is not true. Blind Bat Brewery here on Long Island is a federally licensed brewery that operates out of his garage. Their URL is: http://blindbatbrewery.com/page2/page2.html

I guess residential dwelling is a better way to put it than residential structure. Without even looking at the site you linked, I know enough about liquor laws to know that if he's legally brewing out of a garage, it's in no way attached to a house, and doesn't have anything resembling living quarters in it.

 

[JuanMoore]

Invest in a small 10 gallon system and you can always use it as your experimental system if you ever decide to go bigger/have a nano brewery someday. Even the biggest brewerys keep 10 gallon systems on hand for formulating recipes and such. Have you seen the Brew-Magic System by Sabco? Its a nice set up and everything you'd need to get started. Its pricey, but the quality is top notch. Many of the big craft brewers use it for experimenting. Dogfish Head actually got started on one. The morebeer systems are another nice option and can be more customized to your liking.

+1

I would also seriously consider building a 10 gal system yourself. The Sabco and Morebeer systems are great, but I think there's something to be said for the knowledge gained by putting it all together yourself. It also allows you to customize it exactly the way you want. Take a look at the great HERMS and RIMS builds in the DIY forum for some ideas.

 

[user 40839]

+1

I would also seriously consider building a 10 gal system yourself. The Sabco and Morebeer systems are great, but I think there's something to be said for the knowledge gained by putting it all together yourself. It also allows you to customize it exactly the way you want. Take a look at the great HERMS and RIMS builds in the DIY forum for some ideas.

Agreed a thousandfold. I went from partial mash to all grain (5 gallon batches) and decided I needed something a bit better when I knew I was hooked on this hobby.

One of the best experiences I've had as a homebrewer has been getting together with a fellow brewer and welding together my own Brutus 10. Granted I got remarkably lucky by stumbling onto someone who was local and could weld, but not only was it a lot of fun to put together (in hindsight, all that grinding and drilling stainless was a @#$@#$ pain at the time!), it helped me to really understand what it was I was putting together, plus gave me the skills and knowhow to fix things when they went wrong. Plus, like 99% of the people who put together a Brutus system, we were able to make little tweaks and modifications to our stands to tailor them to us.

If you've got $5,000 to spend, I'm jealous. But thinking back, I think my current setup cost less than $2,000 (stainless was about $250, burners were $150, pumps $250, PIDs, solenoids, and electrics were another $250, keggles were $200 or so, figure on another $500 for stainless fittings, hoses, casters, etc.) Would have been even less had I built it out of mild steel instead of stainless. That's plenty left over for a kegging setup, maybe even a conical fermenter!

 

[hatfieldenator]

Great response Hatfield. I have seen the SABCO, and that's not a bad idea either. How much did your HERMS system cost you?

Well I got really lucky and found my system used on craigslist for $900! It included everything I needed...the mash tun, HLT, stand, all plumbing and complete 5500 watt HERMS system and pump. The guy even threw in a couple extras like a corny keg and chiller. It was perfect for me because I was able to keep using my existing boil kettle and burner with this sytem.
I was only a couple of months away from saving enough to just buy the sabco system, but when this popped up I couldn't turn it down for such a good price.

I'd highly recommend searching your local craigslist and even the classifieds here for used stuff. There are always people getting out of the hobby and you can save hundreds of dollars buying used. It just takes more time and patience (which I don't have so I understand if you just go for a new system)

 

[EarthBound]

I suggest buying that 1 bbl brewing system. You will NOT regret it. I promise.

If I was in your shoes, knowing what I know now, I would've saved all the money I spent so far on "starting small" and spent it on a 1 bbl system that I now want. I know a lot of homebrewers, and you have a very small chance of not enjoying the living $h!t out of this hobby and not wanting a 1 bbl system. Even if you don't want to buy this pre-fab system, go for a 1bbl system.

Whatever you do, don't follow the crowd.

 

[user 40839]

Not to discount your own experience, but I don't know too many homebrewers (and by too many, I mean "none") who wish they had 31 gallons of the same beer. That's six cornies of one brew, and based on a thread I read elsewhere, one corny seems to last folks 2-3 weeks on average (give or take, depending on how many folks you have coming over) so it'd take several months to get through a batch.

Personally, I love the process of brewing as much as I do drinking the end result. (Well..!) I shoot to brew at LEAST once a month, and enjoy having variety. If you're only going to brew a handful of times a year, then fair enough, having a 1bbl system is great.

Now what would be cool is if there were 2-3 brewers who joined forces for a 1bbl system, to split the batches...

Also, the OP has to remember that while that setup is capable of 1bbl, that's just brewing/fermentation vessel. That leaves $2,000 for everything else he'll need - which is obviously MORE than doable, but he'd need a substantial stand for those, figure storage, a fermentation chamber for that conical, etc.

Good point about not starting at the very bottom (if you don't have to) tho, in terms of gear and batch size.

 

[g-love]

Thanks for the input guys. I have so say, I expected to get flamed pretty good when I posted this, but everyone has been cordial.

I have thought a lot about this over the weekend, and I am still not sure where I stand. I see the merits of builing my own smaller system for the experience, as well as being able to use it later for a test system if I ever started a nano (which is not a for sure thing, just a thought). I have a friend of a friend who owns a beer distributor locally, so I am going to check with him today to see if he can source me some legit kegs to make keggles. I also know some guys that will weld stainless for beer. I can weld regular steel and am pretty mechanically inclined so the building of the stand might be fun, and if I can pull all of this together I might be able to do it on the cheap and keep some money for fun things later.

On the other hand, the 1BBL system would be sweet and I wouldn't have to upgrade that for a long while (if ever You guys make a good point about the 31 gallons of beer. I guess I just figured that is capacity and that I don't always have to make that much. I could make smaller batches for a while and then increase as necessary. Even if I made a full sized batch I would give a lot to friends and have parties to make sure it didn't go to waste. I have a 3 tap keg system that I haven't built my keezer for yet, that is screaming "drink from me."

Anyway, I am glad you guys helped me think this through. I am one of those people that really needs to talk things out to make a decision and there is wealth of knowledge on this board.

Thanks!

 

[bendavanza]

A 1bbl system would present problems doing a 5g or 10g batch. If you build your system (stand and burners or electric) with room to grow, you can just upgrade your vessels. If you get some of the "smaller" vessels (20g) from Stout tanks, or blichmann, with the bells and whistles, you would have no problem selling them later if you need to go bigger. Being able to brew 10-15g batch would be pretty substantial. Also look at kegglebrewing for converted kegs ready to go.

 

[Jumbo82]

A 1bbl system would present problems doing a 5g or 10g batch. If you build your system (stand and burners or electric) with room to grow, you can just upgrade your vessels. If you get some of the "smaller" vessels (20g) from Stout tanks, or blichmann, with the bells and whistles, you would have no problem selling them later if you need to go bigger. Being able to brew 10-15g batch would be pretty substantial. Also look at kegglebrewing for converted kegs ready to go.

+1. The smallest batch I can make on my 1bbl system is 17 gallons due to the placement of my heating elements and float valve. If I had intended on occasionally making smaller batches, I'm sure I could have got this down to 10 gallons by positioning the float valve and elements lower on the kettle, but I knew I'd be making large batches from the beginning and didn't bother. My advice would be to think ahead as to your goals for your system before you build it and that should save you some aggravation down the road. A taller, narrower kettle (with the hardware mounted low on the kettle of course) would allow for a larger range of batch sizes, but the trade-off would be less boil off (possibly longer boils to compensate) and more difficulty cleaning. Might make sense for you if you want to alternate between large and small batch sizes though. Good luck.

 

[hopfen]

We are looking at this system as well for a move up from the 20 gallon system we currently use. Anyone in the MA,CT, RI area have one of these that we may take a look at?

We will also go from fermenting in glass to conicals. Someone mentioned putting the conicals in a freezer. What's up with that? We will probably order a second fermentor as having only one ties up production.

thanks,

hopfen