Hops growing in limited space (perfect stake!)

So I had posted a question regarding what to use for my stake in a very limited space. I can't do the teepee tent structure because I just don't have the room. I wanted a sturdy long pole to be able to support the plant as it grows and had several suggestions offered:

1. PVC pipe

2. wooden stake

3. rebar

4. galvanized steel pipe

So I went to Home Depot yesterday to scout out the possibilities. I first went to see the PVC pipe and was immediately turned off. Not only would it require painting to not look like a sore thumb, but unless I went with a wide diameter, there was just too much flex once you got over about 5 feet. So that was out.

Next I checked out some wood, but it wasn't very cheap and they didn't have anything over 10 feet that could support the hop plant (most just trim or large pieces that would be very expensive and difficult to anchor, not to mention rot). So that was out.

Next I found the rebar (they had a 10' section for really cheap, like $5). Unfortunately this was the flimsiest of all. It flexed so much I wouldn't use it for anything over a foot or two (which is what its normally used for in concrete/etc.). So that was completely out.

So next I saw the metal pipes. I found a 1.5" pipe and picked it up. It was 10' in length and had very little flex to it. It was also only $10 or so. I asked the worker if they had longer lengths and he said no, but then asked its use. I'm glad I asked him because he mentioned to me that these were not for outdoor use and that I had to go to the garden center for galvanized pipe (these would have turned orange in a single storm).

So I went outside and found the same pipe (but galvanized) in the garden center. Again it was only 10' tall which had me dissapointed. I figure I would need to bury at least 3' to guarantee it wouldn't move if bumped/heavy rain. That would only leave about 7' for growth which wasn't acceptable for me since people recommend at least 10-12' for the vine to grow on.

So as I was about to leave I noticed there were 2 identical diameter pipes and wondered why they were in different racks. Turns out at the very top one of them had a tapered end where you could put a base on (they sold the bases right next to the pipes). I looked at this pipe and smiled. This was the PERFECT piece.

So I bought 2 of these and headed home. One will be for out front, and the other for out back. I dug a 3-3.5' very narrow hole and inserted the pole with the tapered end at the top. I then put a bucket of wet sand I had lying around in the hole and used a sledge hammer to tamp down the sand. Then I added 1/2 bucket at a time of dirt and tamped down to really secure the pole. Finally I added the remaining dirt and mulch and lightly packed with my hands (I didn't want it to be really compact since I want the rhizomes to easily get some roots going).

When I stood next to my handiwork the pole is about 3' above my head (I'm a bit over 6'). It also feels secure and should get better with a couple days of rest as the dirt continues to settle.

Here's the best part:

Once the hop plant grows to about 7' tall, because the top is tapered I can simply go back to HD and buy another 5' piece of pipe and put that on top of the current piece (they will cut to any length). This will give me a good 12' of height when needed, and during the winter months I can just remove the extension and use it as a flag pole or bird house (or just remove it altogether though I would prefer not to have to put it back in the spring).

So for about $15 you can have a very sturdy, variable height support for the hop plant that doesn't look that bad (you could easily paint it if the metal color annoys you), in a limited space.

I'll post up some pics once I (hopefully) get the shipment of Nugget hops from freshops.

Thanks for everyone's advice and HTH those of you in a similar situation looking for a support.

justin

Sounds good! Although you could paint the steel pipe to keep from rusting. That's more money though, and you'd likely have to paint every year or so.

It sounds to me like you got a galvanized tubing that was meant for the top run of a chain link fence. They have that taper so they can be run continuous. Yup, no reason this won't work. You could have gone with galvanized threaded pipe also and used threaded couplings to add to it. Either way.

Bobby_M said:

It sounds to me like you got a galvanized tubing that was meant for the top run of a chain link fence. They have that taper so they can be run continuous. Yup, no reason this won't work. You could have gone with galvanized threaded pipe also and used threaded couplings to add to it. Either way.

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Hmm, didn't see any threaded piping, that would have been a more secure fit. Maybe I'll find some low-temp locker that would hold the sleeve better. I don't want anything permanent, but something like thread-locker blue (or is it red) for metal where you can just heat the metal and release the bond would work well.

Would I really ned to paint galvanized metal? I thought the purpose of galvanizing was to prevent rusting? I don't see too many chain link fences that show rust.

I dont' think you'd need to paint galvanized, but regular steel yes. Or, you could paint if you just felt like it.

actually i might do that but instead of putting the 10' length in the ground, i'd take a smaller 5' length and put that in the ground than put the 10' on that to make it easier to take down when harvesting.

Dextersmom said:

actually i might do that but instead of putting the 10' length in the ground, i'd take a smaller 5' length and put that in the ground than put the 10' on that to make it easier to take down when harvesting.

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Maybe if you use threaded pipe, but I wouldn't want a 10' pole on the end of a 2-3' pole with a sleeved connection. Just seems to dangerous since the pivot point would have so much leverage put on it in case of heavy wind.

Awesome ideas gentlemen, the wheels are a spinning.
Thanks

Are you the same 7Enigma from Aquarium Advice?

Atl300zx said:

Are you the same 7Enigma from Aquarium Advice?

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Haha, yes I am. I've noticed a few members on here that seem to be on AA as well. I've found a new hobby that has taken up all of my free time (still make time for the proper water changes and pruning), and this one has a much better ROI (liver disagrees).

That is quite funny, this hobby has taken up so much of my time that i was to pull all the stem plants frmo my tank and replace them with swords, crypts and java fern just to decrease maintenance.

Cheers to Aquarium Keeping and Homebrewing!

7Enigma said:

Maybe if you use threaded pipe, but I wouldn't want a 10' pole on the end of a 2-3' pole with a sleeved connection. Just seems to dangerous since the pivot point would have so much leverage put on it in case of heavy wind.

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i would probably anchor it....but yeah threaded pipe would be a good call as well

I almost went with the same thing until I thought about lightning and the extremely bad luck I have. Anyway, just drill a hole through the two sections and bolt or pin them together like scaffolding, they won’t go any where. You can also get the post anchors http://www.hooverfence.com/catalog/cl-pa_c.jpg for chain link fence posts. Not as good as concrete but should give you a little more rigidity at the base. Good luck.

So I had a crazy busy day yesterday. I had worked overtime the day before and so I left work at 2pm. I went over to my father's friend's house to brew with him and dig up some rhizomes. We brewed a pale ale outside using his turkey frier (boy let me tell you this is in my future, so much easier and nicer sitting out back and having a brew). I got to see his copper water chiller (hooked up to a garden hose and brought down 5 gallons of boiling wort to 70F in about 15minutes), and he dug up 3 Cascade rhizomes that have 3-4" of growth shooting out. We had a frost warning last night (~30F) and so I had to put a tarp over them but I'm getting ahead of myself.

After putting the hops in a spare extract bucket with some dirt and a bit of water I got headed for home. The plants really started to wilt during the short ride (they had been in the bucket for an hour or 2 while I was at his house), and one or two of the longer stems broke under their own weight as they wilted over the lip of the bucket.

I got home and was beat but the real work was about to begin. First I planted the 3 Cascade plants in a tri-format around the metal pole. Here I said I wasn't going to do a teepee, but what the hey, its going to be a VERY vertical teepee /|\. The plants are about 1-2' away from each other and about 6" from the pole. Let's hope the roots don't eventually push the pole around! So that was done quickly and then I watered the hops with some aquarium water.

Next up was the job I avoided on Sunday (putting up the other metal pole). This was not easy nor fun due to the area to be planted had a large 80-100ft tree in that spot 3 years prior. Even with a stump grinding there are TONS of large roots still decaying (barely) undeground. I had to poke around a 3' area to find a place where I could actually dig a hole deep enough for the pole. Once I found one I kept running into small rocks that were slowing my progress a lot. I tested the hole with the pipe and realized I needed to go down at least another foot, but I was trapped on all sides by rocks and roots. Then I found a slow but VERY effective way at burying the pipe.

If you carefully lower the pipe into the hole without scraping dirt from the sides, drop it down to the ground, and then while leaning with your weight on the pole and turning from side to side, you can get a good 2-3" of dirt into the pipe. Then carefully lift the pipe out, bang the end with your hand (or put a screwdriver up inside to get the dirt out) you get a perfectly-sized hole that holds the pole really well. Do this, oh, 10-15 more times and I was an extra foot down, with that last foot being so solid, it felt like it was in concrete (because it was packed all around the hole). So if doing this again I would dig maybe a foot down normally, and then start the process of using the pipe to carve out the rest of the hole.

I then packed some wet sand around the base, and like the previous pipe used a sledgehammer to pat down the soil as I added it slowly back to the hole. It was very sturdy when done (even better than the first one), and will be ready for the hops today.

So with that done I had to level out an area of dirt for some sod coming today (yay), and then get to cleaning my secondary for transfer today (I can't wait!). I played around with my autosiphon to see how it works (and sanitized it by siphoning the no-rinse from the secondary into a bucket). I got up last night (this morning?) at 3am to make sure it didn't start siphoning all over the floor overnight (I raised the outlet to the same height, but you never know).

So I went back upstairs and got the Nugget hops out of the fridge (package came yesterday in the mail). Grabbed a brew, opened the package and took a look at the rhizomes (2). They were as expected; about 3-4" long and maybe 1/2" in diameter. I'll be planting them today when I get home from work (knew the frost was coming but wanted to get the Cascade hops in the ground due to their wilting).

Then I'll have to find a way to attach twine to the pipe (while the pipe is already in the air!), and even more important, how to plan it so I can add the attachment when/if the plant gets over 8-9'.

OK enough rambling (heck was this a long post).

7Enigma said:

So I had posted a question regarding what to use for my stake in a very limited space. I can't do the teepee tent structure because I just don't have the room. I wanted a sturdy long pole to be able to support the plant as it grows and had several suggestions offered:

1. PVC pipe

2. wooden stake

3. rebar

4. galvanized steel pipe

So I went to Home Depot yesterday to scout out the possibilities. I first went to see the PVC pipe and was immediately turned off. Not only would it require painting to not look like a sore thumb, but unless I went with a wide diameter, there was just too much flex once you got over about 5 feet. So that was out.

Next I checked out some wood, but it wasn't very cheap and they didn't have anything over 10 feet that could support the hop plant (most just trim or large pieces that would be very expensive and difficult to anchor, not to mention rot). So that was out.

Next I found the rebar (they had a 10' section for really cheap, like $5). Unfortunately this was the flimsiest of all. It flexed so much I wouldn't use it for anything over a foot or two (which is what its normally used for in concrete/etc.). So that was completely out.

So next I saw the metal pipes. I found a 1.5" pipe and picked it up. It was 10' in length and had very little flex to it. It was also only $10 or so. I asked the worker if they had longer lengths and he said no, but then asked its use. I'm glad I asked him because he mentioned to me that these were not for outdoor use and that I had to go to the garden center for galvanized pipe (these would have turned orange in a single storm).

So I went outside and found the same pipe (but galvanized) in the garden center. Again it was only 10' tall which had me dissapointed. I figure I would need to bury at least 3' to guarantee it wouldn't move if bumped/heavy rain. That would only leave about 7' for growth which wasn't acceptable for me since people recommend at least 10-12' for the vine to grow on.

So as I was about to leave I noticed there were 2 identical diameter pipes and wondered why they were in different racks. Turns out at the very top one of them had a tapered end where you could put a base on (they sold the bases right next to the pipes). I looked at this pipe and smiled. This was the PERFECT piece.

So I bought 2 of these and headed home. One will be for out front, and the other for out back. I dug a 3-3.5' very narrow hole and inserted the pole with the tapered end at the top. I then put a bucket of wet sand I had lying around in the hole and used a sledge hammer to tamp down the sand. Then I added 1/2 bucket at a time of dirt and tamped down to really secure the pole. Finally I added the remaining dirt and mulch and lightly packed with my hands (I didn't want it to be really compact since I want the rhizomes to easily get some roots going).

When I stood next to my handiwork the pole is about 3' above my head (I'm a bit over 6'). It also feels secure and should get better with a couple days of rest as the dirt continues to settle.

Here's the best part:

Once the hop plant grows to about 7' tall, because the top is tapered I can simply go back to HD and buy another 5' piece of pipe and put that on top of the current piece (they will cut to any length). This will give me a good 12' of height when needed, and during the winter months I can just remove the extension and use it as a flag pole or bird house (or just remove it altogether though I would prefer not to have to put it back in the spring).

So for about $15 you can have a very sturdy, variable height support for the hop plant that doesn't look that bad (you could easily paint it if the metal color annoys you), in a limited space.

I'll post up some pics once I (hopefully) get the shipment of Nugget hops from freshops.

Thanks for everyone's advice and HTH those of you in a similar situation looking for a support.

justin

Click to expand...

what exactly was this pipe called in the garden center of home depot?

I have exactly no idea. It was in the (I'm guessing) fence section of the garden center. It is 10' tall and has a 4-5" tapered end on only one end. Unfortunately both are now in the ground with the tapered end at the top and so I can't easily get up to the top to read the bar code (I think its on one of the poles). I think if you were to ask for 10' galvanized fence piping they would take you right to it?

EDIT: Oh and I think it was 1 3/8" diameter or something. It was the smallest diameter in that particular place. I picked up the 2 and something " and it was WAYYYY too heavy and meant for something much heavier.

7Enigma said:

I have exactly no idea. It was in the (I'm guessing) fence section of the garden center. It is 10' tall and has a 4-5" tapered end on only one end. Unfortunately both are now in the ground with the tapered end at the top and so I can't easily get up to the top to read the bar code (I think its on one of the poles). I think if you were to ask for 10' galvanized fence piping they would take you right to it?

EDIT: Oh and I think it was 1 3/8" diameter or something. It was the smallest diameter in that particular place. I picked up the 2 and something " and it was WAYYYY too heavy and meant for something much heavier.

Click to expand...

cool thanks....trying to get my things in order....taking friday off for a "Manly" day because its supposed to be really nice and the trellis is one of my priorites. Thanks for the help.

Dextersmom said:

cool thanks....trying to get my things in order....taking friday off for a "Manly" day because its supposed to be really nice and the trellis is one of my priorites. Thanks for the help.

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Sorry I couldn't be of more specific help. One thing I thought of doing (now that I'm going to do a semi-teepee on the pole with the 3 Cascade hops), is to get the T-shaped connector they had for the pipe. It was a small piece that if I drill holes in will be able to get multiple strings on, which will fit at the top. If I leave a good 5-7ft of extra twine at the top I'll be able to simply add the extension piping and keep the vines on the same line. I'm sure its easier said than done but it passes the brain check.


Oh, so today I came home and planted the 2 Nugget rhizomes. It was really difficult to figure out how to plant them because what looked to be roots with a quick glance I believe are in fact shoots coming out for the surface. I hope so, otherwise I planted the hop upside down!

Dextersmom said:

what exactly was this pipe called in the garden center of home depot?

Click to expand...

Sounds like EMT electrical conduit to me. 3/4" x 10' costs about 5 bucks at Lowes's I used it for my Texas Hop Garden.

EdWort said:

Sounds like EMT electrical conduit to me. 3/4" x 10' costs about 5 bucks at Lowes's I used it for my Texas Hop Garden.

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Dang it, I got jipped! Mine was almost $10.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see its not the same thing. Mine was at least 1.5" in diameter, in another area they had really thin (<1") tubing but that flexed too much for me and I didn't think it was galvanized.

I haven't seen EMT that had tapered ends for linking. They sell EMT couplings that link that stuff. Maybe it's just a manufacturer option.

What I was thinking was out by the fence parts. There are upright poles (larger diameter and then a thinner pipe that runs on top of the uprights that holds the chain link up. Now those I've seen with a tapered end for slipping into the next pipe in the run.

Bobby_M said:

I haven't seen EMT that had tapered ends for linking. They sell EMT couplings that link that stuff. Maybe it's just a manufacturer option.

What I was thinking was out by the fence parts. There are upright poles (larger diameter and then a thinner pipe that runs on top of the uprights that holds the chain link up. Now those I've seen with a tapered end for slipping into the next pipe in the run.

Click to expand...

I'll be sure to take a picture after I go back to home depot and get the T-shaped piece, drill holes for twine, and rig up the teepee. It wouldn't be worth the effort to grab a picture right now since its just a pole, but by the end of the week I'll hopefully have this done.

yep ed, EMT is another option i might use. We shall see tomorrow while i'm at home depot.

So 1 of the Nugget rhizomes has sprouted 3 vines that just broke the surface! The other Nugget does not appear to have sprouted yet (though I didn't dig below the top of the rhizome when I checked). I watered it well today to make sure it wasn't too dry.

Now to my problem.....the Cascade hops I got from my father's friend started off looking great but now they have started to go downhill. These were mainly new shoots with only small rhizomes connected and so that may be part of the problem. Some of the lower leaves have turned brown on the edges and some of the newer leaves have completely died (shriveled up and could be pulled off). My biggest concern is the budding portion of the vines seem to also have some browning and have not grown any larger in the last couple days. I water frequently (2-3 times a day), but not heavily, so it shouldn't be due to overwatering. I used a combination of peat moss, partially finished compost, and dirt, and watered with both tap water (from the hose), and my used fish water which should have lots of trace nutrients (I dose ferts in the water for my aquatic plants).

I'm hoping this is just due to the plant depleting its resources and suffering for a bit while new roots grow, but I'm just not sure. I think I may have to make up a dilute plant food mixture to be sure its not a deficiency symptom.

Any ideas?

I wouldn't feed them at all at this point. Don't over water either, just keep moist. You want them to grow some roots before they get too big up top, anyway.

oooh, that sounds like a great idea.....but I'll do 2, string a cable between and do some guy wires.....awesome

the tapered fence posting that you suggested worked out perfectly! I'll post pictures soon....the'll most likely be crappy pictures from my phone but pictures none the less....i transplanted my cascade outside on sunday, and they seem to be catching on nicely!

OK, I know I promised getting pics up earlier, but I just today did the build. I waited this long (laziness) because my Cascade hops are just starting to bend under their own weight. Here's the photo journal.

Here's a pic of the final setup from ground level. You can see I went for 4 equally spaced ropes so hopefully it won't tip over under weight/wind. Notice the ladder in the background....I was balancing on 3 legs while tying the sisal rope.



Here you can see one of the better bines that I carefully trained around the rope. It really does grip the twine with those little burrs.



Here's a great shot showing just how rough the sisal rope is. All of those little frays should help the bines grab a hold and stay on under even the worst winds.



Here's a McGuyver shot of my fancy knot work. As you can see I have no clue what I'm doing but it seems to hold well and doesn't look horrible from the ground.



Now the beauty behind this setup and the reason there is so much twine at the top of the pole is for extending the height of the pole when/if the bines get tall enough. Right now the top is about 8' off the ground. That might be high enough since this will be the first season, but if it gets close I can simply add an extension to the top of the pole. What's so excellent (if I may say so myself) about this (look back at the 1st pic if my explanation doesn't make sense) is there is a single piece of twine to be used for 8-15'. If I was to just cut the distance from the ground to the top, in order to put an extension in I would need to tie the pieces together (I wouldn't want to risk this for fear of collapse). Since its a single piece of twine for 2 runs, to extend the twine all I'll need to do is untie the rope at the top and add the new piece of metal. The bines will continue to grow further up the now available rope.

I have one more pic but the 4 pic limit will require another post.

Here's the last pic looking down from the top (I'm balanced on 3 legs of a ladder)....



You can see the twine is pretty taught so the weight of the bines don't make the twine sag. The other great thing I forgot to mention is the anchors. They were from an inflatable Halloween pumpkin and are those screw in anchors. They look almost like springs for a swing but one end is missing the hook (so it can screw into the ground). It seems to hold very well, and because of its design if I need to in the future I can screw in farther to tighten, or unscrew to loosen the tension of the twine.

OK that's it, hope this helps someone!

JBWeld will glue down almost anything.

HTH,

M.

morrighu said:

JBWeld will glue down almost anything.

HTH,

M.

Click to expand...

But can it be easily removed when I need to extend it?

Nice setup for the tight space.... I love to use items for what they are not intended for.... As my good friend Alton Brown says.... its if its a unitool throw it out!

I still need to figure out my attaching the rope to the top of the trellis where I can easily get it down part.

So I've had my first bad experience with this setup....rain. While the sisal rope was supposed to be very resistant to the elements rain has turned out to seriously effect it. I came outside this morning to leave for work and all the lines are very tight, with one of them partially uprooting my anchor. Turns out as the sisal gets wet, I assume it expands which actually contracts the length (kind of counter-intuitive but if you think about it long enough it might make sense). So it seems that when this gets wet it gets overly tight, but then when it drys out it goes back to normal tension. I'm thinking this might need to be modified somehow, but all easy/practical ideas escape me at the moment...

Thanks for the idea....here is my take on your idea... (bottom of the page) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=58650&page=16

FYI (for anybody wanting to duplicate) Lowes Item Code:

85193 1-3/8"x10'6" -18GA TOP RAIL $10.48 each

-JMW

Never been on that board, but I too have several freshwater planted aquariums...and they are all jungles now due to my new hobby!

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

Never been on that board, but I too have several freshwater planted aquariums...and they are all jungles now due to my new hobby!

Click to expand...

It's a fantastic group over at AA. I've neglected it for a while (not my tanks!) but will be back if/when I decide to change the tanks around. I'm kind of lettin my main tank live out its life. The fish are 3 years old now I believe and slowly over the months they have started to die off (assuming old age). I don't want to add more in for fear of introducing disease, etc. and like the more relaxed tank due to less aggression. But I'm sure if something bad happened and I lost the fish I'd be back there researching my next setup.

You can get lazy with the pruning/fert dosing, just don't skimp on the water changes!

So.. anyone think that 3/4" EMT will work? or is it to bendy? Thinking about wind when the plants have grown.

This is the rockiest, hardest dirt I have ever seen! I've spent an hour digging one hole and I'm only down about 18 inches and the soil seems to be getting even harder!
Had decided to go and rent an auger but I was told that it probably wouldn't work due to the rocks. So whats a guy to do? I don't have a blasting permit. Hilti maybe?

So we had a crazy Nor'Easter storm yesterday. Like 1-2" of rain and 40-50mph gusts of wind. The poles and hops held fine. One bine unraveled a bit but I just trained it back on carefully. So that was the trail by fire if you will and it seemed to survive.

Denny's Evil Concoctions:

If EMT is the same material as the stuff I used I would not think it would suffice. There was smaller piping the diameter you mentioned that was WAYYY to wobbly even at 10 feet. Add an extension to that and it would be very unsafe.

Stick with the 1.X". Then try the method I mentioned in post #14. It was the only way I could get one of my poles into the ground. If you hit a huge rock it won't work but if they are pretty small you can just push them into the piping and then scrape them out.

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

So.. anyone think that 3/4" EMT will work? or is it to bendy? Thinking about wind when the plants have grown.

This is the rockiest, hardest dirt I have ever seen! I've spent an hour digging one hole and I'm only down about 18 inches and the soil seems to be getting even harder!
Had decided to go and rent an auger but I was told that it probably wouldn't work due to the rocks. So whats a guy to do? I don't have a blasting permit. Hilti maybe?

Click to expand...

One slow but maybe easier solution is to pour some water in the hole you have and come back in an hour, dig out the mud, more water... etc.