15 or 20 Gal Kettle for 5-10 gallon batches

Jinkies · Sep 6, 2016

I'm trying to get a new 5-11 gallon full volume e-BIAB brew system in place.
I would like to do full mashes when possible. I'd really like the option to do 10 Gallons on occasion. I was initially thinking 20 gallon kettles. However, with the standard 1.2 ratio kettle dimensions and the average 18" diameter means 5 or 6 gallons is barely 5" deep in the kettle. Which seems even more problematic for BIAB mash with an element. I'm looking for the least amount of fuss and muss. I already have a CFC and a pump, so it would be nice to have a whirlpool port. Also, I was thinking Tri-Clamp for the versatility, ease of swapping out fittings and fast cleanup. I know it's not really a sanitation benefit. Mash re-circulation isn't a current requirement.

Kettle "requirements"

Stainless Steel
5-10 gallon (6-11 into the fermenter) batch capability
Welded fittings
Whirlpool or return fitting
Electric Element Port

Not required, but preferred.

Prefer tri-clamp
Temp probe in wort during 5 gallon batches

I've narrowed it down to a 15 or 20 gallon kettle from CO Brewing Systems, Spike or Brewer's Hardware. These all meet the above requirements and can be outfitted with custom element ports and TC for all.

Brewer's Hardware.
Pro's

Tangential Inlet
15.75" diameter on 20 Gallon kettle (reasonable wort height and boil off for 5 gallon batches which will be most).

Con's

Not sure if there's a fitting to direct wort up or down during recirculation. Or attach a hose to if i go mash recirc. (Not strictly required as I neither plan to cool during whirlpool or recirc during mash).
$$$ ($56 dollars to ship!)
Temperature port is high (I've read at the 7 gallon mark)

Spike Brewing
Pro's

Reputedly one of the most solid builds.
Tri-ply is induction capable
Volume is conservative and usually 1-2 gallons more than sold as.
$80 or $90 savings over Brewer's Hardware
Volume Markings

Cons

20 gallon pot is ~18" diameter which seems too big for 5-6 gallon batches.

Co Brewing Systems
Pro's

$, The cheapest, $230-$250 bucks for custom outfit and free shipping. Another ~$100 savings over spike and $200 from Brewer's Hardware
sells 1" whirlpool fitting

Cons

Kettle dimensions appear to be Concord. 15 gallons barely 15 (only 16" high)
20 gallon pot is ~18" diameter which seems too big for 5-6 gallon batches.
Not as "beefy" as Spike.

Do you have any experience with BIAB and the aforementioned kettles? Do you have experience with how well BIAB 5 gallon batches in a 20 gallon kettle or 10 Gallon in a 15 Gallon kettle work? If you have the time to comment I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!

petrolSpice · Sep 6, 2016

Are you doing full volume mashes? If so you need to consider the volume of the entire mash. I've been doing 5.5 gallon batches in an 11 gallon pot and the pot was too small for beers with an OG>1.075 (approx) after you account for losses, grain absorption, and boil off.

I just upgraded to a 15.5 gallon pot which should be large enough to do 7.5 gallon batches. I will have to recheck my boil-off rate with the new pot.

When in doubt, go bigger.

I wouldn't worry too much about the height of the wort during the mash. It's still the same volume of water and mash thickness.

JONNYROTTEN · Sep 6, 2016

I Didn't read entire post,sorry.But I only brew electric BIAB in a Concord 20 gallon pot.With Grain and excess strike water I'm around 4 inches from the top at Hotbreak.I wouldn't even think of anything under 20 gallon pot for 10 gallon batches

EDIT: Sorry bud,Your looking for 5 gallons in a 20 gallon pot advise that I have not done and would like to hear other opinions also as to the 5" depth for mashing

Jinkies · Sep 6, 2016

Are you doing full volume mashes?

Sorry, edited my original post to include that. Yes, I'd like to do full volume mashes whenever possible. On the same token. I'm not totally opposed to "juicing" the wort with some DME.

bossman · Sep 6, 2016

I purchased one of Spike's 20 gallon kettles when they released the new version late last year and at this point have probably done 6 or so 5 gallon BIAB batches with it. I went with Spike because I wanted a TC port welded to the side for going full electric once I get the power capabilities. For now I just use the element to give my stove a little extra kick (the pot is plenty wide and the burner plenty small that I don't have an issue with the sparky bits getting hot).

At this point I have had no problems doing the 5 gallon batches in the kettle and don't really feel like I'm way overkill either. I think the tipping point for me was figuring out how scalable a 20 gallon is. It allows me to go down as far as 5 gallon BIAB batches and could grow into 1 bbl 3 vessel system as my HLT.

I would say the only downside I've had from going with the 20 gallon is it is a little more difficult to clean only because it doesn't fit in my sink anymore. I end up setting it on the floor and cleaning it out that way. This certainly isn't a deal breaker but if you think will have a hard time moving it around empty it is something to consider.

Jinkies · Sep 6, 2016

bossman said:
At this point I have had no problems doing the 5 gallon batches in the kettle and don't really feel like I'm way overkill either.

Thanks for the reply! I have a few questions for you.
How far submerged is the element at the end of the boil?
Do you have a temperature probe? If so, is it submerged?
How full is it during mash? Half?
Do you have problems maintaining mash temps?
What do you see for boil off?

Thanks again!

FoCobrewguy · Sep 6, 2016

I have a brewer's hardware 20 gallon but no tangential inlet. I really like the kettle the slimmer design has less boil off and with it the temp probe is not that high. If you are doing recirculation during the mash you will take the temp at a different point then the middle of the mash so that is not a huge issue. With a bag the temp probe can be an issue as well I don't use mine when I have the bag. I brew 5 gallons and 10 gallons and really have no issues switching back. Neither are a huge concern for boil overs or anything really glad I went with the 20 gallon. As for service Derrin and his crew have always treated me right, shipped fast and have just about any tri clamp connection you can dream of.

bossman · Sep 6, 2016

Jinkies said:
How far submerged is the element at the end of the boil?

I would guess 3 or more inches. I've haven't finished a boil and been concerned about my element going dry. Spike placed my TC port 2" from the bottom of the kettle which gets me low enough but would still allow me to use one of their false bottoms if I wanted to.

Jinkies said:
Do you have a temperature probe? If so, is it submerged?

I don't have a temperature probe because I prefer to use my Chef Alarm which will alarm when I hit strike temp or reach boil. I also didn't want to worry about snagging my bag on something I may or may not use in the future. If you would prefer the temp probe and went the Spike route, having them move it down a little wouldn't be a big deal at all.

Jinkies said:
How full is it during mash? Half?

Half is pretty good estimate. My last IPA with a 1.076 OG was about an 11 gallon mash volume.

Jinkies said:
Do you have problems maintaining mash temps?

I don't think I have any problems with mash temp but different people may have differing opinions. I would estimate that I lose about a 1/2 degree every 15 minutes or so. I don't consider it a big thing to have to check in on my mash every 20 minutes or so and give it a little kick if needed.

Jinkies said:
What do you see for boil off?

Depends on the season but 1.25 gallons/hour is about right.

Hope this helps.

Bishop · Sep 6, 2016

I use a 20 gallon concord for 5 gallon biab batches with their false bottom (their stand legs are too short for my heating element so I needed to use stainless bolts and nuts for longer legs. I also recirculate. I wanted to have the comfort of a larger kettle should I decide to start brewing 10 gallon batches.

JONNYROTTEN · Sep 6, 2016

Bishop said:
I use a 20 gallon concord for 5 gallon biab batches with their false bottom (their stand legs are too short for my heating element so I needed to use stainless bolts and nuts for longer legs. I also recirculate. I wanted to have the comfort of a larger kettle should I decide to start brewing 10 gallon batches.

This is my exact setup.So your saying with a false bottom over the heating element and the grains in a bag resting on the false bottom the grains are still under water and all works OK for 5 gallon batches.Seemed shallow to me so I haven't tried it yet.

Bishop · Sep 6, 2016

JONNYROTTEN said:
This is my exact setup.So your saying with a false bottom over the heating element and the grains in a bag resting on the false bottom the grains are still under water and all works OK for 5 gallon batches.Seemed shallow to me so I haven't tried it yet.

Yes, the false bottom is probably 4-4.25". My sight gauge for gallons is measured assuming the false bottom stays. With my grain and water, my sight gauge is usually around 8.5-9 gallons for mashing. I recirculate from the bottom to the top of the lid. Let me know if you have any other questions but this has worked for me.

sillbeer · Sep 7, 2016

I have the NorCal false bottom in my 80 quart Concord pot and the false bottom measures exactly 2" high. I bought the false bottom then had the element fitting mounted appropriately. I've only done one 5 gallon BIAB brew with this setup and it worked great. It was a Murphy's Stout so not a high gravity beer.

I feel comfortable knowing I can do a 5 or 10 gallon brew with this pot. If you plan on not going over 10 gallons then a 20 gallon pot will suit you just fine.

jekeane · Sep 7, 2016

how frequently are you going to do 10g batches? I found the 20g pot size to be a huge hassle personally. I got fed up cleaning and moving a giant kettle for 3-5g batches which is 95% of what I do. I am quite sure all but the biggest beers would work in a 15g kettle with a little fermcap.

petrolSpice · Sep 7, 2016

jekeane said:
how frequently are you going to do 10g batches? I found the 20g pot size to be a huge hassle personally. I got fed up cleaning and moving a giant kettle for 3-5g batches which is 95% of what I do. I am quite sure all but the biggest beers would work in a 15g kettle with a little fermcap.

Using my calculator, you would have trouble fitting a 10 gallon batch in the 15 gallon kettle above an OG of around 1.060 assuming full volume mash, 1 gal boil off, no kettle losses, and squeezing the bag hard. Doing a sparge would fix this easily.

ChelisHubby · Sep 7, 2016

I have a silly question Are you currently brewing 5 gallon batches and if so why not continue with that pot for small batches then buy the 20 gallon pot for the larger batches. I currently am doing 6 gallons in a 10 gallon pot and I have no intention of getting rid of the pot when I go to 10 gallon batches.

jekeane · Sep 7, 2016

petrolSpice said:
Using my calculator, you would have trouble fitting a 10 gallon batch in the 15 gallon kettle above an OG of around 1.060 assuming full volume mash, 1 gal boil off, no kettle losses, and squeezing the bag hard. Doing a sparge would fix this easily.

I agree and this is where the planning according to what you really brew versus what you think you will want to brew comes in to me.

I personally do 1 beer above 1.060 for every 10 i do under. Often the beers that are above 1.060 are Belgians that are using sugar to raise gravity. And for me in general the bigger the gravity the smaller the batch I want.

I am more than happy to do a pour over or dunk sparge on a rare occasion to not have to deal with the size difference in kettles..

TexasWine · Sep 7, 2016

Jinkies said:
I'm trying to get a new 5-11 gallon full volume e-BIAB brew system in place.
I would like to do full mashes when possible. I'd really like the option to do 10 Gallons on occasion. I was initially thinking 20 gallon kettles. However, with the standard 1.2 ratio kettle dimensions and the average 18" diameter means 5 or 6 gallons is barely 5" deep in the kettle. Which seems even more problematic for BIAB mash with an element. I'm looking for the least amount of fuss and muss. I already have a CFC and a pump, so it would be nice to have a whirlpool port. Also, I was thinking Tri-Clamp for the versatility, ease of swapping out fittings and fast cleanup. I know it's not really a sanitation benefit. Mash re-circulation isn't a current requirement.

Kettle "requirements"

Stainless Steel

5-10 gallon (6-11 into the fermenter) batch capability

Welded fittings

Whirlpool or return fitting

Electric Element Port

Not required, but preferred.

Prefer tri-clamp

Temp probe in wort during 5 gallon batches

I've narrowed it down to a 15 or 20 gallon kettle from CO Brewing Systems, Spike or Brewer's Hardware. These all meet the above requirements and can be outfitted with custom element ports and TC for all.

Brewer's Hardware.
Pro's

Tangential Inlet

15.75" diameter on 20 Gallon kettle (reasonable wort height and boil off for 5 gallon batches which will be most).

Con's

Not sure if there's a fitting to direct wort up or down during recirculation. Or attach a hose to if i go mash recirc. (Not strictly required as I neither plan to cool during whirlpool or recirc during mash).

$$$ ($56 dollars to ship!)

Temperature port is high (I've read at the 7 gallon mark)

Spike Brewing
Pro's

Reputedly one of the most solid builds.

Tri-ply is induction capable

Volume is conservative and usually 1-2 gallons more than sold as.

$80 or $90 savings over Brewer's Hardware

Volume Markings

Cons

20 gallon pot is ~18" diameter which seems too big for 5-6 gallon batches.

Co Brewing Systems
Pro's

$, The cheapest, $230-$250 bucks for custom outfit and free shipping. Another ~$100 savings over spike and $200 from Brewer's Hardware

sells 1" whirlpool fitting

Cons

Kettle dimensions appear to be Concord. 15 gallons barely 15 (only 16" high)

20 gallon pot is ~18" diameter which seems too big for 5-6 gallon batches.

Not as "beefy" as Spike.

Do you have any experience with BIAB and the aforementioned kettles? Do you have experience with how well BIAB 5 gallon batches in a 20 gallon kettle or 10 Gallon in a 15 Gallon kettle work? If you have the time to comment I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!

You should check out this thread. If I were in your shoes, I'd copy what this fellow did.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=573718

Jinkies · Sep 7, 2016

jekeane said:
how frequently are you going to do 10g batches? I found the 20g pot size to be a huge hassle personally. I got fed up cleaning and moving a giant kettle for 3-5g batches which is 95% of what I do. I am quite sure all but the biggest beers would work in a 15g kettle with a little fermcap.

Was it mostly the cleaning or were there other hassles?

Jinkies · Sep 7, 2016

ChelisHubby said:
I have a silly question Are you currently brewing 5 gallon batches and if so why not continue with that pot for small batches then buy the 20 gallon pot for the larger batches. I currently am doing 6 gallons in a 10 gallon pot and I have no intention of getting rid of the pot when I go to 10 gallon batches.

Not a silly question. I or had this info in the main post, but edited it out because it was too much text. Current 10 Gallon Pot is aluminum. Bucket soured a batch of Berliner Weisse, then boiled it. I called it, "Forget me No.. Berliner Weisse." That kettle has never been so clean. Beer still tasted good and came in second in it's category in a small competition. At that point I made up my mind to go stainless. Also I now have a CFC and a pump so i'd need to do fittings anyways. Not to mention I've never had good luck pouring from it. Always runs down the sides and makes a mess. So I was hoping to just make it simple. Two stainless pots with fittings is the same cost as Stout or Brewer's Hardware kettle.

Jinkies · Sep 7, 2016

jekeane said:
I agree and this is where the planning according to what you really brew versus what you think you will want to brew comes in to me.

I personally do 1 beer above 1.060 for every 10 i do under. Often the beers that are above 1.060 are Belgians that are using sugar to raise gravity. And for me in general the bigger the gravity the smaller the batch I want.

I am more than happy to do a pour over or dunk sparge on a rare occasion to not have to deal with the size difference in kettles..

What size pot and batch sizes are you currently using? My brewing is across the board, to it's detriment. So my last 5 batches have been, Double IPA, Newcastle Clone, Berliner Weisse, West Coast Red.

Jinkies · Sep 7, 2016

TexasWine said:
You should check out this thread. If I were in your shoes, I'd copy what this fellow did.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=573718

That setup is pretty sweet! The BH kettle is one I've been really tempted to just through the cash at. Main issues are cost and temp port. I also message them last week and haven't heard back. Same from CO brewing. Spike emailed me back the next morning.

jekeane · Sep 7, 2016

Jinkies said:
What size pot and batch sizes are you currently using? My brewing is across the board, to it's detriment. So my last 5 batches have been, Double IPA, Newcastle Clone, Berliner Weisse, West Coast Red.

I am transitioning back to 3 vessel as I finally completed my eherms build I started a couple years ago. The only reason I choose to finish the herms is because I had invested in custom kettles awhile back and I figured I should make use of them.

The main hassle to me is a 20g kettle is really big and a pita to move, clean, and store for the rare 10g full volume batch that wouldn't fit. When I BIAB I have a 10g (10.75 to the top) blichmann that I use for 3-6g batches that are almost always full volume. I also have a 3.75g kettle that I do 2g batches on the stovetop.

Now if you have a dedicated space where you can more or less clean in place and not carry the thing around then I suppose that is another story.

augiedoggy · Sep 8, 2016

JONNYROTTEN said:
I Didn't read entire post,sorry.But I only brew electric BIAB in a Concord 20 gallon pot.With Grain and excess strike water I'm around 4 inches from the top at Hotbreak.I wouldn't even think of anything under 20 gallon pot for 10 gallon batches

EDIT: Sorry bud,Your looking for 5 gallons in a 20 gallon pot advise that I have not done and would like to hear other opinions also as to the 5" depth for mashing

I'm trying but I just dont see how you with a 20 gallon kettle (and electric setup) say its barely enough for 10-11 gallon boils... I dont BIAB but when im at the boil point so I may be missing something but at hotbreak I have no problems with boiling 12 gallons or so of wort in a 15 gallon bayou kettle. One of the nice things about electric is you have total control over the boil and can easily prevent boil overs by using your pid. I used to do 11 gallon brews in my old 13 gallon kettle and it was tight but it worked.

I set my pid to stop at 207 degrees and have the alarm go off. then I set it to manual mode and watch it for the 2 minutes or so it takes to get past the hotbreak point and if it looks like im going to boil over I momentarily kill the heat and stir... after doing this once or twice im good to leave it unattended till the hops are added.

My understanding with biab is you pull the bag of grain out prior to the boil and some pour sparge water over the bag of grain while suspended above to rinse the sugars/sparge as well as get the correct boil volume but I dont see how the level would reach so high that a 20 gallon kettle doesnt work with plenty of space... I guess this would be an argument for the taller thinner kettles which would have a higher headspace.

JONNYROTTEN · Sep 8, 2016

augiedoggy said:
I'm trying but I just dont see how you with a 20 gallon kettle (and electric setup) say its barely enough for 10-11 gallon boils... I dont BIAB but when im at the boil point so I may be missing something but at hotbreak I have no problems with boiling 12 gallons or so of wort in a 15 gallon bayou kettle. One of the nice things about electric is you have total control over the boil and can easily prevent boil overs by using your pid. I used to do 11 gallon brews in my old 13 gallon kettle and it was tight but it worked.

I set my pid to stop at 207 degrees and have the alarm go off. then I set it to manual mode and watch it for the 2 minutes or so it takes to get past the hotbreak point and if it looks like im going to boil over I momentarily kill the heat and stir... after doing this once or twice im good to leave it unattended till the hops are added.

My understanding with biab is you pull the bag of grain out prior to the boil and some pour sparge water over the bag of grain while suspended above to rinse the sugars/sparge as well as get the correct boil volume but I dont see how the level would reach so high that a 20 gallon kettle doesnt work with plenty of space... I guess this would be an argument for the taller thinner kettles which would have a higher headspace.

I generally start with 14 gallons of water for around 11/12 gallon finished beer.At Around an inch a gallon that would only leave one inch BEFORE adding 25 pounds of grain in a 15 gallon pot

jekeane · Sep 8, 2016

JONNYROTTEN said:
I generally start with 14 gallons of water for around 11/12 gallon finished beer.At Around an inch a gallon that would only leave one inch BEFORE adding 25 pounds of grain in a 15 gallon pot

I understand this. It is definitely a problem if you exclusively do 10g batches.

For me and I think what the OP needs to decide is, is a rare convenience of doing full volume 10g batch rather than sparging worth the inconveniences of 5g batches in a 20g kettle?

In my case I'm close to 40 biab batches this year most are 3-6g about 10 ov which are stovetop 2g and only 3 are 10g. The 10g ones were all low gravity (sub .050) and likely could have been done full volume in a 15g. All 3 of those batches were done on my friends 3 vessel setup however as we were splitting the batches and I honestly have no desire to lift 20# of wet grain : p

Pros and cons of a 20g kettle:

Pros:
1. kettle can cover all batch sizes reasonably well.

Cons:
1. It may be a bit cumbersome for regular 5 gallon batches
2. Maintaining mash temps will be more tricky on smaller batches
3. Boil off rate will vary greatly depending on batch sizes.

Pros and cons of a 15g kettle:

Pros:
1. More manageable size
2. Easier mash temperature management for 5g batches
3. more uniform boil off rate

Cons:
1. you will need to dunk or pour over sparge for 10 gallon batches of beer over 1.055 - .060
2. If you move to exclusively 10g batches the kettle will frustrate you.
3. You will likely need fermcap or pay close attention to boil overs on 10g batches.

wilserbrewer · Sep 8, 2016

I agree, a 20 gallon pot is silly large for someone that predominantly brews 5 gallon batches.

There really is not a perfect size for 5 and 10 gallon batches, it's really 2 kettles, a 12 and a 20.

A 15 is IMO a little large for 5 gallon batches, and a little small for 10 gallon batches.

I would actually prefer 2 inexpensive kettles sized appropriately than 1 kettle sized inappropriately.

Jmo

JONNYROTTEN · Sep 8, 2016

wilserbrewer said:
I agree, a 20 gallon pot is silly large for someone that predominantly brews 5 gallon batches.

There really is not a perfect size for 5 and 10 gallon batches, it's really 2 kettles, a 12 and a 20.

A 15 is IMO a little large for 5 gallon batches, and a little small for 10 gallon batches.

I would actually prefer 2 inexpensive kettles sized appropriately than 1 kettle sized inappropriately.

Jmo

Agreed.If your running propane two good cheap pots is the way to go.Building 2 electric pots is obviously a decent amount work more.

augiedoggy · Sep 8, 2016

Well with a 3 kettle electric setup 15.5g hlt and MT with a 15g boil kettle This system does work well for both 5.5g and 11g batches which is what I normally do... I understand things get more complicated/limited with BIAB in this regard. When I posted above I didnt realize this was the BIAB section of the forum.
I aim for 1 gallon per hr boiloff so usually only a gallon or 2 extra in the boil kettle at any time and adjust my pid % for the correct boiloff rate per batch. The less expensive kettle are usually as wide or wider than they are tall and it may be harder to get a lower boiloff rate with a good rolling boil due to the surface area.

jekeane · Sep 8, 2016

Here is a photo of (left to right) 20g 10g 15g kettles to give you a rough idea of size difference. All 3 of these kettles are the 1:2 ratio i think it is called so they are taller than wider.

The middle 10g kettle is what I was using for 3-6g biab batches. The 20g kettle sits and collects dust unless I am brewing 12 gallons of lager or for an event. I have another 10g kettle I use for boiling.

My guess is a 15g kettle would do everything you needed if you kept your current pot for an occasional dunk sparge.

[/IMG]

mcgimpkins · Sep 8, 2016

jekeane said:
Pros and cons of a 20g kettle:

Pros:
1. kettle can cover all batch sizes reasonably well.

Cons:
1. It may be a bit cumbersome for regular 5 gallon batches
2. Maintaining mash temps will be more tricky on smaller batches
3. Boil off rate will vary greatly depending on batch sizes.

Pros and cons of a 15g kettle:

Pros:
1. More manageable size
2. Easier mash temperature management for 5g batches
3. more uniform boil off rate

Cons:
1. you will need to dunk or pour over sparge for 10 gallon batches of beer over 1.055 - .060
2. If you move to exclusively 10g batches the kettle will frustrate you.
3. You will likely need fermcap or pay close attention to boil overs on 10g batches.

I'm a little confused and not really sure I understand the cons on this list for the 20 gallon pot.

I personally think that a 20 Gallon pot is superior to a 15 for BIAB because you have the ability and flexibility to easily do 5 or 10 gallons. Usually when I BIAB I used somewhere around 8 gallons, no sparge to brew 5.5 gallons of wort. Meaning if I wanted to double that I would be out of luck and have to juggle sparge water around in between at least 2 different pots.

Cons:
1. It may be a bit cumbersome for regular 5 gallon batches - Agreed 20 Gallon pots are more cumbersome than a 15 to move around and clean.

2. Maintaining mash temps will be more tricky on smaller batches - I don't understand this one, if you are cycling your mash via a pump and you have your temperature probe in a good (submerged) location, why is there a problem maintaining a mash temperature?

3. Boil off rate will vary greatly depending on batch sizes. - Boil off rate does not depend upon batch size, it is your surface area: "Assuming the same kettle and burner are used, and that they are capable of maintaining an adequate boil, the boiling losses are largely independent of the batch size because the major factor is the surface area.". Whether you have 8 gallons or 16 gallons in your pot you should get the same boil off rate.

15 or 20 Gal Kettle for 5-10 gallon batches

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