Aromatic & Honey Malt in the Same Recipe?

I am looking to make an IPA this weekend and I would like to give it some malty flavor with the hops. I was thinking of using a 0.5# of honey malt and aromatic malt in the grain bill (both would be about 2.5% each). I would make a 8.5 gallon batch but then split off 2.5-3 gallons into a small fermenter with a different yeast strain. So back on topic, would honey malt and aromatic malt clash in a grain bill? Or would they complement each other? I know the honey malt is very sweet, where as the aromatic malt is very "malt forward" so I am curious to see what others think of them together in a brew. I really want to try something different.

Also, I plain on using Warrior hops for bittering and Sorachi Ace for the aroma and dry hops. I'll call it Warrior's Ace IPA. I want to try something new/different, but wanted to see what others thought. Thanks guys!

Sorachi and Aromatic is what I see as being more of an experiment. Im not a big sorachi fan though.

jekeane said:

Sorachi and Aromatic is what I see as being more of an experiment. Im not a big sorachi fan though.

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Yes you are right. Some have reported a "Dill" flavor from the Sorachi Ace. So it will be interesting.

Here is the grain bill I have thrown together for this experimental brew.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 15.0 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.5 %

pshankstar said:

Yes you are right. Some have reported a "Dill" flavor from the Sorachi Ace. So it will be interesting.

Here is the grain bill I have thrown together for this experimental brew.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 15.0 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.5 %

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I think, as a malt bill, this looks delicious. As for how it will work in your IPA...well I guess you'll just have to brew it and let us know!

The only thing that I might mention would be that, since honey malt is a type of crystal malt, you might want to reduce your C60, as it all adds up to a pound and a half total of crystal malt, which IMHO is going to be a bit much for an IPA.

My opinion is to cut that crystal altogether. you're using two other malts (honey and aromatic) for a total of 5% that are supposed to give a lot of malt sweetness and character. Not to mention your 3 lbs of munich. I think a fun experiment for a grain bill would be brew one with 5% crystal as you have it and one splitting those honey and aromatic malts at 5% for another. As it is now I don't think you're going to be able to determine what gave you the flavors you like. Will you get a tasty beer? I think so, but maybe not for an IPA.

To answer your question, I don't know if honey malt and aromatic malt would clash but together with your pound of crystal 60 is a bit much on the malty department especially when you're talking about using a Lemon flavored hop for an IPA.

As for sorachi ace, I love them. They look really cool (like mini hops) and they smell great in the bag. I used them in a saison to great affect. I did not however, dry hop with them and that's where I think people are getting the "dill" from.

JordanKnudson said:

I think, as a malt bill, this looks delicious. As for how it will work in your IPA...well I guess you'll just have to brew it and let us know!

The only thing that I might mention would be that, since honey malt is a type of crystal malt, you might want to reduce your C60, as it all adds up to a pound and a half total of crystal malt, which IMHO is going to be a bit much for an IPA.

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Thank you very much for the feedback. I didn't know honey malt was a type of crystal malt... I had the C60 in there for the head retention and what not. Do you think I could swap out the 1# of C60 for 1# of wheat instead? I feel that my brews never have much if any of a head when you pour them (bottle or keg). Thanks again!

Pound of flaked wheat works well for me

jerbrew said:

My opinion is to cut that crystal altogether. you're using two other malts (honey and aromatic) for a total of 5% that are supposed to give a lot of malt sweetness and character. Not to mention your 3 lbs of munich. I think a fun experiment for a grain bill would be brew one with 5% crystal as you have it and one splitting those honey and aromatic malts at 5% for another. As it is now I don't think you're going to be able to determine what gave you the flavors you like. Will you get a tasty beer? I think so, but maybe not for an IPA.

To answer your question, I don't know if honey malt and aromatic malt would clash but together with your pound of crystal 60 is a bit much on the malty department especially when you're talking about using a Lemon flavored hop for an IPA.

As for sorachi ace, I love them. They look really cool (like mini hops) and they smell great in the bag. I used them in a saison to great affect. I did not however, dry hop with them and that's where I think people are getting the "dill" from.

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Great, thanks for the feedback as well. I'll ask you the same question as I did the other poster. Do you think replacing the C60 with wheat would be ok? I added the C60 for the head retention and what not. I feel like many of my brews lack that... Thanks!

There's a lot of stuff out there about head retention. Wheat vs carapils vs flaked rye...blah blah blah. I and many others use a pound of flaked wheat. I like it and it seems to work for me. It can cause a bit of haze in really light beers but i've never really had an issue with that (gives me an excuse if my beer is not clear). My saision with a pound of wheat was crystal clear after cold crashing though. So, if you're worried about that add some carapils in there for head retention.

jerbrew said:

Pound of flaked wheat works well for me

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Flaked wheat is different from wheat malt, right? If so, I don't have any flaked wheat on hand, but I do have wheat malt. Also, if I can pick up some flaked wheat, do I just add it to the other grains in the mash? I've quickly read some other things to do with flaked wheat (i.e. cook it ahead of time)...

Or maybe just drop the C60 all together as you suggested.

Thanks again!

pshankstar said:

Thank you very much for the feedback. I didn't know honey malt was a type of crystal malt... I had the C60 in there for the head retention and what not. Do you think I could swap out the 1# of C60 for 1# of wheat instead? I feel that my brews never have much if any of a head when you pour them (bottle or keg). Thanks again!

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Yep, think of honey malt as a crystal malt. While it definitely brings a different flavor to the table, it is made in a similar way to crystal malt, but with an even higher moisture content. It will leave a noticeable residual sweetness in the beer, just like your C60 (actually a bit more, in my experience). But it's an awesome malt.

And yes, I think replacing the C60 with wheat will work for you. It will lighten the color up, so if that's a consideration for you, make sure you readjust using some dark malt. But as far as head retention, I prefer wheat malt to crystal for this purpose (just my preference). Hopefully the wheat plus the hop compounds will help get you some good foam on this beer!

EDIT: Whoa! You guys are fast! By the time I got done typing, you had already continued the conversation! So let me qualify something I said here. I use wheat malt, not flaked wheat. However, you will likely get the same result from either, as far as head retention goes. Flaked grains DO NOT need to be cooked or given a separate cereal mash (save that for your raw wheat, grits, etc).

http://byo.com/stout/item/328-brewing-with-wheat

this is a good article from BYO in 96 of wheat. In short, using about 5% wheat malt shouldn't be a problem for a single infusion mash. Flaked wheat is just easier. No milling and you just through it into the mash. using about 5% shouldn't present any crazy haze either

@jerbrew neat article!

To OP, just to reiterate what jerbrew said, you have 5% C60 in your recipe. Replacing it with wheat should not give you any haze issues, and it should help with head retention. In fact, here's a relevant quote from that same BYO article:

"At lower percentages (5 to 20 percent) of the grist, wheat malt can be added to any number of beer styles — including British ales — to enhance the head retention without clarity problems. This is true even with a single infusion, although the barley malt should be well modified. In fact 'the use of wheat malt at up to 20 percent of the total grist has been claimed to strengthen the yeast, and improve the clarity and head retention of the beer,' according to Malting and Brewing Science, the classic brewing text."

Thanks for the read (link) @jerbrew! I skimmed over it quickly just now, but I will read it all later tonight! Also thank you for your input/advice!

@JordanKnudson, thank you too for your feedback as well!

Cheers to you both!

Ok, so I kegged the 5 gallons with the WLP001 yeast this weekend and pulled a pint today to try it. 30psi for 36-40 hours, then dropped down to 10psi for about 4 hours before pulling the first pint. I will be kegging the smaller half (2.5 gallons) using the Wyeast 1187 Ringwood yeast tonight. Below is the recipe I ended up using with everyone's suggestions. Also note of the 3oz of dry hops, I placed 2oz in the 5 gallon batch and 1oz in the smaller 2.5 gallon batch.

So the 5 gallon portion with WLP001 had the following numbers:
OG - 1.060
FG - 1.008
ABV - 6.83%

Well I am pleased with the results. It needs to sit at 10psi a little longer. Nice head when I pour it, but fades quickly. A little bit of lacing. A lot clearer than my last beer I made which ended up looking like a NE IPA. I chalk that up to having a wort chiller finally for this batch.

So I would like to say thank you all for your input! This beer has a nice malt flavor with the hops being present. I think it's a nice balance of malt and bitterness/hoppyness...

Recipe: 7/17/16 - Warrior's Ace (IPA)
Brewer: P. Shanks
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 11.67 gal
Post Boil Volume: 10.92 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 8.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 8.13 gal
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG
Estimated Color: 6.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 80.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 88.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 15.0 %
1 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.5 %
1.50 oz Warrior (2015) [14.90 %] - First Wort 60 Hop 6 42.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Warrior (2015) [14.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 9.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
1.00 oz Warrior (2015) [14.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 12.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Sorachi Ace [14.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 8.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Sorachi Ace [14.10 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 11 8.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 12 -
1.0 pkg Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) [124.21 Yeast 13 -
3.00 oz Sorachi Ace [14.10 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs