Priming cider bottles with cranberry juice

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bucketnative

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TLDR = I was thinking of priming a 1 gallon batch of cider with cranberry juice. How much to add to a 1 gal batch to get 3.2 vol CO2?

Long Story…

I have typically been using honey at the rate of 1.54 oz/gal. This is with a target of 3.2 vol of CO2.

Honey is roughly 82% sugar, while cranberry juice from concentrate is federally mandated to be at least 7.5% sugar. So, from those numbers, that equates to 16.8 oz of cranberry juice to get equivalent carbonation. That will increase the volume of the batch 13%, which will also decrease carbonation, so I could add 0.2 oz honey to make up the difference in carbonation that the added volume costs.

I also did an approximation using the information here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Accurately_Calculating_Sugar_Additions_for_Carbonation

After going through all of the various models, the author arrives at a rule of thumb that each gravity point (gp) will contribute 0.51 vol CO2. I am assuming that, at 18°C, there are approximately 0.9 vol CO2 in the cider after fermentation is complete, based on the saturation point for CO2. That would require me to gain 2.3 vol CO2, which means 4.5 gp. If I assume that cranberry juice at 7.5 Brix = 1.030 OG, and that my cider is at 1.000 FG:

1 gal (1.000) + X (1.030) = (1 + X) 1.0045
X = 18.6 oz

That’s not too far off the number via the first method. I might add some additional sugar at primary to up the alcohol.

The goal was to get some nice cranberry flavor in the bottle. Does this pathway make sense? Has anyone used juice to prime before? Should I just go with cranberry in primary, rather than complicating things by priming with the flavoring juice?
 
I haven't done it with cranberry, but I sweeten and prime with frozen apple juice concentrate all the time. It only takes a 1/4 cup or so to raise a gallon of cider by 5 points. If you're looking for 3.2 volumes and one gravity point is worth .51 volumes, then you're looking for about 6 points of sugar. It seems to me you should be able to get there without 16 oz of dilution.

How about adding the cranberry by taste, and make up the rest with something else?

A lot of folks add berries to their secondary carboys. I think you get more control of the product that way. Craisins are a popular way to get that.
 
Maylar said:
If you're looking for 3.2 volumes and one gravity point is worth .51 volumes, then you're looking for about 6 points of sugar.
Click to expand...

When using that guideline, you do need to account for CO2 already in solution with the fermented cider. That's why I came up with the 4.5 gp for use in that equation. All of the online calculators account for the CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider. They assume that the solution is saturated with CO2 after fermentation.

I agree that I could get there using cranberry to taste, with concentrate making up the balance of the sugar. To that end, I could also use cranberry juice concentrate, which by most accounts is around 50 - 65 Brix depending on the supplier, and end up with less dilution.
 
bucketnative said:
When using that guideline, you do need to account for CO2 already in solution with the fermented cider. That's why I came up with the 4.5 gp for use in that equation. All of the online calculators account for the CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider. They assume that the solution is saturated with CO2 after fermentation.
Click to expand...

With CO2 in solution, that means the cider hasn't cleared yet. That seems rather subjective as to how much CO2 there will be at any given point in time. And even the act of racking and bottling will release some of the gas in suspension. That would be hard to predict.

Most of us like to age our ciders for a while before bottling, to allow it to totally clear and for the flavors to mature. Starting with "flat" cider gives you a stable predictable baseline for carbonating. In the few times that I've done "by the calculator" priming, I've been impressed with how accurate the results can be.
 
Maylar said:
With CO2 in solution, that means the cider hasn't cleared yet. That seems rather subjective as to how much CO2 there will be at any given point in time. And even the act of racking and bottling will release some of the gas in suspension. That would be hard to predict.

Most of us like to age our ciders for a while before bottling, to allow it to totally clear and for the flavors to mature. Starting with "flat" cider gives you a stable predictable baseline for carbonating.
Click to expand...

CO2 is clear in solution, and it doesn't relate to yeast/protein/pulp dropping out of suspension during clearing of the cider.

If the headspace is approximately 100% CO2 in the vessel (be it a primary fermenter or secondary for aging), one can assume the "flat" cider to be essentially saturated with CO2 in solution at atmospheric pressure for the given temperature (also assuming a steady state). A saturated solution will not necessarily yield noticeable bubbles (carbonation). It is only when you supersaturate under pressure that one gets noticeable carbonation.

Maylar said:
In the few times that I've done "by the calculator" priming, I've been impressed with how accurate the results can be.
Click to expand...

If you look at the Brewer's Friend priming calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/), they give you an assumed volume of CO2 in the "flat" beer (See Update 7/2013). This is the "CO2 in Beer" line Right before the priming sugar options. As noted,, cold-crashing your beer/cider can affect this number, but because that is not an equilibirum process, it is difficult to predict. So, the calculators do take into consideration the amount of CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider.

I have used this calculator, as well as Northern Brewer's (http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/), and I have found them both to give good results. If you ignored the CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider and went off the thumbnail of 1 gp = 0.51 vol CO2, you would consistently overcarb by roughly 33%
 
Thanks for that.

Does the "CO2 in beer" change with time? Example, if a cider is aged for 6 months before bottling, will the numbers be different? Or does the gas stay in suspension forever?
 
bucketnative said:
TLDR = .... while cranberry juice from concentrate is federally mandated to be at least 7.5% sugar.
Click to expand...
Can the feds actually mandate a minimum amount of sugar in a fruit juice??? I dunno, doubt it.....just checked a bottle of Knudsen organic cranberry juice in my stash (from concentrate - not cranberry juice cocktail, just juice), label reads 6% carbs, half of which comes from sugar, so.....just sayin')
 
fuelish said:
Can the feds actually mandate a minimum amount of sugar in a fruit juice??? I dunno, doubt it.....just checked a bottle of Knudsen organic cranberry juice in my stash (from concentrate - not cranberry juice cocktail, just juice), label reads 6% carbs, half of which comes from sugar, so.....just sayin')
Click to expand...

Yes, the Fed can and does mandate the minimum Brix of a "from concentrate" juice in order that the manufacturer may claim it as "100% juice". See the CFR in particular, 21 CFR 101.30

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.30

The juice made from concentrate is intended to match the average Brix of single strength juice obtained straight from the fruit (not from concentrate).

FYI - When you read the total carbohydrates as a percentage... that percentage is the percent of the daily recommended value based on a 2,000 calorie/day diet. That's a big difference from saying that the juice is 6% carbs... If you read the absolute value on the label (I always prefer absolutes versus relative values), you will see that each 8 FL OZ serving contains 9g of sugar.

I found it odd Knudsen's (odd that their total carbohydrate comes out to exactly 7.5% when calculating mass carbohydrate/vol liquid), and their sugars are half that. But if you look at other 100% cranberry juices, the numbers are much different...

Ocean Spray = 11% sugar (http://www.oceanspray.com/Products/Juices/By-Type/100-Juice/Cranberry-Blend.aspx#nutritionalInfo)

Wikipedia = 7.5% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry_juice#Nutritional_information)

I did some reading into the Brix reading as a measure of total carbohydrates versus sugars. It turns out that Brix accounts for complex sugars and total carbs in a liquid, while the FDA definition of a sugar, for nutritional purposes is, "Sugars shall be defined as the sum of all free mono- and disaccharides (such as glucose, fructose, lactose, and sucrose)." See 21 CFR 101.9(c)(6)(ii) (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=101.9) for that definition.

I also found some other references that state when measuring the Brix of a plant juice, one can get the total sugars by dividing the Brix by two. That's probably where the disconnect comes from.
 
bucketnative said:
CO2 is clear in solution, and it doesn't relate to yeast/protein/pulp dropping out of suspension during clearing of the cider.

If the headspace is approximately 100% CO2 in the vessel (be it a primary fermenter or secondary for aging), one can assume the "flat" cider to be essentially saturated with CO2 in solution at atmospheric pressure for the given temperature (also assuming a steady state). A saturated solution will not necessarily yield noticeable bubbles (carbonation). It is only when you supersaturate under pressure that one gets noticeable carbonation.



If you look at the Brewer's Friend priming calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/), they give you an assumed volume of CO2 in the "flat" beer (See Update 7/2013). This is the "CO2 in Beer" line Right before the priming sugar options. As noted,, cold-crashing your beer/cider can affect this number, but because that is not an equilibirum process, it is difficult to predict. So, the calculators do take into consideration the amount of CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider.

I have used this calculator, as well as Northern Brewer's (http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/), and I have found them both to give good results. If you ignored the CO2 in the "flat" beer/cider and went off the thumbnail of 1 gp = 0.51 vol CO2, you would consistently overcarb by roughly 33%
Click to expand...

Well, there is NEVER 100% co2 in the headspace, and after fermentation it's unknown what the percentage may be, but the ideal gas law does come into play.

That means that the liquid is certainly NOT saturated with c02, and in fact may be totally flat and have very little c02 in the liquid.

And where the wine does have c02 in it, it does not clear well. The co2 in suspension can certainly impact clarity.
 
bucketnative said:
Yes, the Fed can and does mandate the minimum Brix of a "from concentrate" juice in order that the manufacturer may claim it as "100% juice". See the CFR in particular, 21 CFR 101.30

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.30

The juice made from concentrate is intended to match the average Brix of single strength juice obtained straight from the fruit (not from concentrate).

FYI - When you read the total carbohydrates as a percentage... that percentage is the percent of the daily recommended value based on a 2,000 calorie/day diet. That's a big difference from saying that the juice is 6% carbs... If you read the absolute value on the label (I always prefer absolutes versus relative values), you will see that each 8 FL OZ serving contains 9g of sugar.

I found it odd Knudsen's (odd that their total carbohydrate comes out to exactly 7.5% when calculating mass carbohydrate/vol liquid), and their sugars are half that. But if you look at other 100% cranberry juices, the numbers are much different...

Ocean Spray = 11% sugar (http://www.oceanspray.com/Products/Juices/By-Type/100-Juice/Cranberry-Blend.aspx#nutritionalInfo)

Wikipedia = 7.5% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry_juice#Nutritional_information)

I did some reading into the Brix reading as a measure of total carbohydrates versus sugars. It turns out that Brix accounts for complex sugars and total carbs in a liquid, while the FDA definition of a sugar, for nutritional purposes is, "Sugars shall be defined as the sum of all free mono- and disaccharides (such as glucose, fructose, lactose, and sucrose)." See 21 CFR 101.9(c)(6)(ii) (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=101.9) for that definition.

I also found some other references that state when measuring the Brix of a plant juice, one can get the total sugars by dividing the Brix by two. That's probably where the disconnect comes from.
Click to expand...
LOL.....I humbly stand corrected, dunno what I was thinking....iirc, I had bottled a strong plain mead before I had posted that and had been sampling, so....obviously wasn't thinking too clearly, if at all, as I know how to read the labelings for what they're worth....was a momentary lapse of reason ;) Shall refrain from posting when imbibing until I've thought out what I'm saying....carry on, good people
 
Yooper said:
Well, there is NEVER 100% co2 in the headspace, and after fermentation it's unknown what the percentage may be, but the ideal gas law does come into play.

That means that the liquid is certainly NOT saturated with c02, and in fact may be totally flat and have very little c02 in the liquid.

And where the wine does have c02 in it, it does not clear well. The co2 in suspension can certainly impact clarity.
Click to expand...


What about during active fermentation, when it is all positive pressure all the time? "Never" is a long, long time, to paraphrase Prince.

This thread seems to disregard temperature as a factor. Warmer = less CO2 dissolved; colder = more.
 
ericbw said:
What about during active fermentation, when it is all positive pressure all the time? "Never" is a long, long time, to paraphrase Prince.

This thread seems to disregard temperature as a factor. Warmer = less CO2 dissolved; colder = more.
Click to expand...

During active fermentation, much of the air in the headspace is c02, but not "all". It's never "all". Even if you use a co2 tank and push c02 into the carboy, it won't be "all" c02.
 
Yooper said:
During active fermentation, much of the air in the headspace is c02, but not "all". It's never "all". Even if you use a co2 tank and push c02 into the carboy, it won't be "all" c02.
Click to expand...

If you pushed CO2 into the carboy, forcing the existing "air" out of the bottle, and continuing to push CO2 into the bottle (and out of), you wouldn't eventually have all CO2?
 
ericbw said:
If you pushed CO2 into the carboy, forcing the existing "air" out of the bottle, and continuing to push CO2 into the bottle (and out of), you wouldn't eventually have all CO2?
Click to expand...

No, not entirely- but mostly. Until you stopped doing that, and then once again the gasses seek equilibrium. Interestingly, oxygen even enters a carboy through the water in the airlock. The laws of physics state that gasses will always seek equilibrium.
 
Yooper said:
No, not entirely- but mostly. Until you stopped doing that, and then once again the gasses seek equilibrium. Interestingly, oxygen even enters a carboy through the water in the airlock. The laws of physics state that gasses will always seek equilibrium.
Click to expand...

That's true, but for a thumbnail calculation, 100% is closer than 50%. Water vapor will be about 3% at equilibrium. And small amounts of O2 will diffuse in. Hence why it is important to have minimal headspace during aging.

Even with "still" wine, by EU regulations, the wine will contain between 1-2g/L of CO2, which equates to between 0.5 and 1.0 volumes of CO2. Again, that's at or below the CO2 saturation point (at Troom), so you won't detect bubbles, but it is necessary for some bite (carbonic acid).

For what it's worth, during active fermentation (at least in commercial brewing) the gas is close to 99% CO2. This is a key component of the reclamation of CO2 from the fermenter for use in bottling applications. Most of the patents and specs on CO2 reclamation/purification for the breweries require a high purity (>98%) CO2 gas to be efficient.
 

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