confused over german HB advice vs american HB techniques

As I said in my Introduction I have not yet brewed beer - still buying books, reading gathering information and equipment (well, making spread sheet for shopping).

So far I have only read english books on brewing. Since I wanted to make sure that I understood all the stuff I read I did look up some terms in their german translation. So far so good, although it seems that Germans give completely different advice.

Maybe you can help me to clarify some things.

1. Mash

Not only do some Germans call it "cooking the mash", they advice a 4 step heating procedure with resting times for the mash.

Starting Temp 55°C / 131°F (let rest 10-30 min)
heat to 62°C / 143.6°F (it should take 1 min. to increase temp by 1 degree C)
let it rest for 20 min.
heat to 66°C / 150.8 (again in 1 degree C steps per minute)
let it rest 20 min.
heat to 72°C / 161.6°F
rest for 10 min.
heat to 78°C / 172.4°F
rest for 30 min.

The temperature during the resting phase must be kept stable.

***

You guys here in the US including Mr. John J. Palmer seem to mash your grains together in a coleman 70 qt. cooler and keep it simple (although Mr. Palmer does describe the Multi-Rest procedure.)

I do not see a practicable way to ensure the stable temperature without preparing my mash in a boiling pot, right? Or does the coleman cooler option allow me to keep temperature stable during the rest phase?

====================================

cooling down:

Germans seem not to have issues letting the wort cool over night before adding the yeast - while I thought I had understood so far, that a fast cooling down is required (to prevent oxidation and dimethyl-sulfite off flavors)


Thoughts?

=====================================

carbonation

It seems that Germans do not add priming sugar but rather take 10-15% of the wort before adding the hops and add it to the beer before bottling.

It is also advised to either only use bottles with swing top easy caps and to open them 2-3 days after bottling to prevent them from bursting.... some even recommend not fermenting/carbonating in bottles at all but use kegs or other non breakable food grade containers.

thoughts?

===========================================

fermentation:

for bottom-fermenting beers an open vessel covered with a kitchen towel is advised.

Uhm.... have I not read so much about possible contamination, and air locks?

I am very confused. Also the fermenting temperature varies.

bottom-fermentation:
temp advised ranges from below 9°C / 47°F to 15°C / 59°F

and for the fermenting time 7-8 days followed by a second fermentation at slightly over 0°C / 32°C for a min. of 6 weeks.

***

You guys seem to prefer 3 weeks and no secondary fermentation at much higher temp ranges...

your thoughts, please?

======================================


How do I separate the husk/spelt from the grain to cook it separately and add to the wort later?


=================================

and how many spread sheets made / Books read is enough to dare to brew for the first time (and that is a serious question) I do not want to spoil my enthusiasm by brewing some undrinkable stuff the first time and no - I don't want a brew kit, and no, I don't want extract... I want to learn it and do it right.

Thanks for your patience / time reading this.

Who are these Germans?

orangehero said:

Who are these Germans?

Click to expand...

I just googled some terms in German to make sure I understood what I have read in english and ended up on homebrewers sites / forums in Germany as well as some breweries and home brewing supply stores in Germany.

1) Mash - you can do the multi-rest, or not. Your call.
2) Cooling down - lots of people here do "no chill" cooling where they let the wort rest overnight. Again, your call.
3) Carbonation - if you know the maths behind wort sugars & whatnot, you can predictably carb your beer that way. On a homebrewers' scale, it is just easier to use priming sugar.
4) Fermentation temps - it sounds like you are talking about ales versus lagers? Ales ferment at warmer temps than lagers. Also, unless you are racking onto fruit, cacao nibs, vanilla, or other flavours, or want to wash your yeast, most people don't use a secondary. On a home-brew scale, it's just not necessary, although you certainly can if you want. I don't to avoid one more chance of oxidizing my beer.

Merci beaucoup

... and since my original plan that lead to this endeavor is to brew the perfect "Augustiner Helles" which is a lager I of course looked up all the lager specific stuff

I might wanna start with a white ale though... just because ...

How do I make extract from my husks/spelts to add to the wort later?
I have not found any information on this anywhere so far....

I read through this and typed out a detailed response but lost it.

So, in summary there is a lot of good things in what you have seen. There are old techniques and new techniques. There are complicated ways of doing things and more simple ones.

You are also mixing up lager and ale techniques and temperatures.

In all grain you do not separate the husk and the grain, though there may have been a technique that did this.

Although you could go straight to making an all grain recipe, I would suggest you do a KIT first. It could be all grain if you have a pretty good idea of the procedure. If not I would suggest the usual route that is to do a couple of extract KITS, then maybe some extract recipes of your own design, then progress to all grain.

To be blunt. You have confused yourself with all your research and have not figured out what is what. So I would not suggest you start straight into all grain, especially lagers.

In answer to your last post, You do not make extract, you BUY extract.

Ditch all the German stuff, Read How to Brew by John Palmer, the book, not the online version and start from there.

I'm rather new at this too, but I'll take a stab at some of your questions based on what I've learned thus far.

Braumeise said:

1. Mash

Not only do some Germans call it "cooking the mash", they advice a 4 step heating procedure with resting times for the mash.

Starting Temp 55°C / 131°F (let rest 10-30 min)
heat to 62°C / 143.6°F (it should take 1 min. to increase temp by 1 degree C)
let it rest for 20 min.
heat to 66°C / 150.8 (again in 1 degree C steps per minute)
let it rest 20 min.
heat to 72°C / 161.6°F
rest for 10 min.
heat to 78°C / 172.4°F
rest for 30 min.

The temperature during the resting phase must be kept stable.

***

You guys here in the US including Mr. John J. Palmer seem to mash your grains together in a coleman 70 qt. cooler and keep it simple (although Mr. Palmer does describe the Multi-Rest procedure.)

I do not see a practicable way to ensure the stable temperature without preparing my mash in a boiling pot, right? Or does the coleman cooler option allow me to keep temperature stable during the rest phase?

Click to expand...

The Colman is insulated like no other- it'll keep things hot or cold. It'll hold the temperature of the mash with less worry about losing heat. What I've learned is that there's no real right or wrong method. It's what works for you personally that's best. For example, I don't have a large enough place to do Palmer's method as described above, so I've defaulted to a simpler BIAB method using my BBQ side-burner and a kitchen kettle to change the water temperature.

It comes down to what works best for you to maintain your mash temperature.

Braumeise said:

cooling down:

Germans seem not to have issues letting the wort cool over night before adding the yeast - while I thought I had understood so far, that a fast cooling down is required (to prevent oxidation and dimethyl-ulfite off flavors)


Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I think a lot of this has to do with sanitation especially in home environments. If your sanitation is perfect from the beginning of your brewing process, than leaving the wort to cool overnight shouldn't be an issue provided you cover the cooling wort. My last brew I had to leave cool overnight, again because of limited space and limited cooling methods. 35°C Sydney weather doesn't help either!

Braumeise said:

carbonation

It seems that Germans do not add priming sugar but rather take 10-15% of the wort before adding the hops and add it to the beer before bottling.

It is also advised to either only use bottles with swing top easy caps and to open them 2-3 days after bottling to prevent them from bursting.... some even recommend not fermenting/carbonating in bottles at all but use kegs or other non breakable food grade containers.

thoughts?

Click to expand...

I carbonate with table sugar usually only because it's cheap and I have tons of it sitting in the cupboard. There's nothing I've read in English that says you can't or shouldn't carbonate with wort, it's just another moethod of doing it. I'd love to keg, but I don't have space. It's bottles for me for now! Eventually when I build my backyard Biergarten, there will be kegging.

===========================================

Braumeise said:

fermentation:

for bottom-fermenting beers an open vessel covered with a kitchen towel is advised.

Uhm.... have I not read so much about possible contamination, and air locks?

I am very confused. Also the fermenting temperature varies.

bottom-fermentation:
temp advised ranges from below 9°C / 47°F to 15°C / 59°F

and for the fermenting time 7-8 days followed by a second fermentation at slightly over 0°C / 32°C for a min. of 6 weeks.

Click to expand...

I would NEVER ferment with an open lid (Niemals, niemals!). It's asking for trouble in my opinion. I've do my own sauerkraut covered with a towel that comes out fine but I feel that's a different kind of fermentation because the solid (cabbage) is covered with a liquid (brine). For my beer, the fermenter is sealed and my airlock is in.

My lagers sit in a primary for about 14 days at 12°C (53°F), 6 days at 17°C (62°F) for a diacetyl rest, and then lager at no more than 3°C (37°F) for no less than 8 weeks. I use a large cooler bag with ice blocks to maintain the temperature.

Braumeise said:

You guys seem to prefer 3 weeks and no secondary fermentation at much higher temp ranges...

your thoughts, please?

Click to expand...

I don't bother doing a secondary fermentation when I make a Hefeweizen. Last one I did was in the primary for just under 3 weeks before it was ready to be bottled. I've read a lot that says don't bother with a secondary for most ale-type beers.

Braumeise said:

How do I separate the husk/spelt from the grain to cook it separately and add to the wort later?

Click to expand...

I'll save this one for someone who knows better than I do.

Braumeise said:

and how many spread sheets made / Books read is enough to dare to brew for the first time (and that is a serious question) I do not want to spoil my enthusiasm by brewing some undrinkable stuff the first time and no - I don't want a brew kit, and no, I don't want extract... I want to learn it and do it right.

Click to expand...

I say read as much as your head can handle, but don't be too afraid to jump right in and just brew. Even with all my steps written down and feeling like I'm prepared for anything, I always expect something to not go right. And I'm OK with that. For me, the experiment is half the fun. The other half is the fact that I'm making beer.

I went to university in Hamburg and I had a teacher who would tell us: "Einmal machen, nächstes Mal anders machen." Best advice I ever got for everything I've done in life. Now that I brew, I find this advice fits even better.

Braumeise said:

Thanks for your patience / time reading this.

Click to expand...

Kein Problem!

What German-language sources are you using? I'd love to read through some of it myself.

Agreed lagers and beginner Brewers do not get along. Plus you don't even have the equipment to make a lager properly

Sounds to me like German homebrewers are like German commercial brewers, who are much like the German people in general, very set in their traditional ways.

Their advice is not wrong, and some stuff (the mash schedules in particular) will serve you well for brewing German beers.

Their carbonation technique is known as kräusening, and is done that way because for commercial beer in Germany, it's legally required due to ridiculous purity laws and the stupid extremities to which they've been interpreted. And one would assume that much like homebrewers elsewhere in the world try to emulate their commercial counterparts, German homebrewers may be doing the same. That technique will work, and even has some benefits, but it is NOT for beginners. Use priming sugar like most new brewers do, and you'll thank yourself later. If you want to experiment with kräusening later on, feel free to do so, but until you know what to expect you can end up with potentially dangerous results (they even mention bottles bursting in the info you provided).

And like the others have suggested, there's a lot that goes into brewing. As much as you want to "do it right" from the start, I too would recommend starting with an extract kit. That will cut out all the complications and potential pitfalls that come with mashing, and let you focus on other parts that are far more important (sanitation, cleaning, ferm temp control, etc) without getting overwhelmed. If you want to start all-grain, go for it, but you'll be adding a lot more room for error in the process.

kh54s10 said:

I read through this and typed out a detailed response but lost it.

So, in summary there is a lot of good things in what you have seen. There are old techniques and new techniques. There are complicated ways of doing things and more simple ones.

You are also mixing up lager and ale techniques and temperatures.

In all grain you do not separate the husk and the grain, though there may have been a technique that did this.

Although you could go straight to making an all grain recipe, I would suggest you do a KIT first. It could be all grain if you have a pretty good idea of the procedure. If not I would suggest the usual route that is to do a couple of extract KITS, then maybe some extract recipes of your own design, then progress to all grain.

To be blunt. You have confused yourself with all your research and have not figured out what is what. So I would not suggest you start straight into all grain, especially lagers.

In answer to your last post, You do not make extract, you BUY extract.

Ditch all the German stuff, Read How to Brew by John Palmer, the book, not the online version and start from there.

Click to expand...

haha I know I have to buy extract but I don't want to and I don't want a beer KIT... to me that seems like making Miràcoli and call it cooking.

I like to do stuff from scratch although you are right, I tend to confuse myself...

I guess I will start buying my equipment now and I know what I want to do and how it should taste.
I will keep records... but right now I don't feel confident that I did enough reading... and I did read How to brew (the book, not online) along with some other literature.

Augustiner Brewery Munich separates the Husk from the grains and adds an extract made from the husks later to the wort. That was my point for asking and that was the extract I was talking about "making"--- just to clarify this confusion.

So much information! Thank you!

tgolanos said:

I'm rather new at this too, but I'll take a stab at some of your questions based on what I've learned thus far.



The Colman is insulated like no other- it'll keep things hot or cold. It'll hold the temperature of the mash with less worry about losing heat. What I've learned is that there's no real right or wrong method. It's what works for you personally that's best. For example, I don't have a large enough place to do Palmer's method as described above, so I've defaulted to a simpler BIAB method using my BBQ side-burner and a kitchen kettle to change the water temperature.

Click to expand...

I was totally thinking of utilizing my side-burner from the BBQ... now I will do that!

It comes down to what works best for you to maintain your mash temperature.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the coleman cooler could work. I'll figure that out on a new spread sheet

I think a lot of this has to do with sanitation especially in home environments. If your sanitation is perfect from the beginning of your brewing process, than leaving the wort to cool overnight shouldn't be an issue provided you cover the cooling wort. My last brew I had to leave cool overnight, again because of limited space and limited cooling methods. 35°C Sydney weather doesn't help either!

Click to expand...

I am looking to cooler temps now here in PA so cooling down should not be such a problem in our winter. And before I dare to do something we will be covered in snow ...

I carbonate with table sugar usually only because it's cheap and I have tons of it sitting in the cupboard. There's nothing I've read in English that says you can't or shouldn't carbonate with wort, it's just another moethod of doing it. I'd love to keg, but I don't have space. It's bottles for me for now! Eventually when I build my backyard Biergarten, there will be kegging.

Click to expand...

I want that too!
so for now it seems like carbonating with wort is just so much more traditional hence sophisticated. I guess I'll aim at that.

===========================================



I would NEVER ferment with an open lid (Niemals, niemals!). It's asking for trouble in my opinion. I've do my own sauerkraut covered with a towel that comes out fine but I feel that's a different kind of fermentation because the solid (cabbage) is covered with a liquid (brine). For my beer, the fermenter is sealed and my airlock is in.

Click to expand...

Those are my thoughts exactly! NEVER!
Although my Kombucha (only thing I have been brewing) and my sour dough ferment fine in open vessels just covered with a towel. Despite the cats!

My lagers sit in a primary for about 14 days at 12°C (53°F), 6 days at 17°C (62°F) for a diacetyl rest, and then lager at no more than 3°C (37°F) for no less than 8 weeks. I use a large cooler bag with ice blocks to maintain the temperature.

Click to expand...

Note taken! Thank you!
I plan to buy an extra fridge and temperature controlling unit.

I don't bother doing a secondary fermentation when I make a Hefeweizen. Last one I did was in the primary for just under 3 weeks before it was ready to be bottled. I've read a lot that says don't bother with a secondary for most ale-type beers.

Click to expand...

when I figure out what I want to brew I will ask again, if I may

I say read as much as your head can handle, but don't be too afraid to jump right in and just brew. Even with all my steps written down and feeling like I'm prepared for anything, I always expect something to not go right. And I'm OK with that. For me, the experiment is half the fun. The other half is the fact that I'm making beer.

I went to university in Hamburg and I had a teacher who would tell us: "Einmal machen, nächstes Mal anders machen." Best advice I ever got for everything I've done in life. Now that I brew, I find this advice fits even better.

Click to expand...

haha! That is so "nothern german" great advise though

Kein Problem!

What German-language sources are you using? I'd love to read through some of it myself.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much!

I stumbled over:

https://www.heimbrau.de/brauen.html

http://www.selber-bier-brauen.de/gaeren.html

and some others I need to find in my history.

Will get back with links tomorrow

Thanks, man!
ttyl!

m00ps said:

Agreed lagers and beginner Brewers do not get along. Plus you don't even have the equipment to make a lager properly

Click to expand...

True... that is why I am not yet brewing but still reading

...and why my first brew will be white ale!
and why I will probably take many more month before I dare touching malt and hops...

Gotcha!

makes sense what you are saying... yet I can not even think of buying a KIT for extract brewing...
and yes, maybe I am typical German in that sense that I would not buy a microwave dinner and call that cooking (I do not even own a microwave!)
And I am a purist and a snob in many ways. I appreciate that old world wines need to be made according to purity laws and I do see some very sophisticated brewing techniques for beer have evolved from that... although, I am here in this country long enough to praise the freedom that comes especially for beer brewing without being bound to purity laws.
So there is two hearts beating in my chest... the German stubborn traditional and the free thinking, nothing is impossible ...

Qhrumphf said:

Sounds to me like German homebrewers are like German commercial brewers, who are much like the German people in general, very set in their traditional ways.

Their advice is not wrong, and some stuff (the mash schedules in particular) will serve you well for brewing German beers.

Click to expand...

And since I want "Augustiner" I should learn that.

Their carbonation technique is known as kräusening, and is done that way because for commercial beer in Germany, it's legally required due to ridiculous purity laws and the stupid extremities to which they've been interpreted. And one would assume that much like homebrewers elsewhere in the world try to emulate their commercial counterparts, German homebrewers may be doing the same. That technique will work, and even has some benefits, but it is NOT for beginners. Use priming sugar like most new brewers do, and you'll thank yourself later. If you want to experiment with kräusening later on, feel free to do so, but until you know what to expect you can end up with potentially dangerous results (they even mention bottles bursting in the info you provided).

Click to expand...

I guess I can get myself to using sugar unless I know better what I am doing.
Thanks for the safety advise! That did the trick... priming sugar sounds great from that point of view! (and I really mean that!)

And like the others have suggested, there's a lot that goes into brewing. As much as you want to "do it right" from the start, I too would recommend starting with an extract kit. That will cut out all the complications and potential pitfalls that come with mashing, and let you focus on other parts that are far more important (sanitation, cleaning, ferm temp control, etc) without getting overwhelmed. If you want to start all-grain, go for it, but you'll be adding a lot more room for error in the process.

Click to expand...

I have to think about that, but I truly get your point I just happen to have my mind set on something different and I am kind of... you may guess - stubborn

Thanks for the advise!
highly appreciated!

Don't expect to brew the perfect anything on your first few attempts. You can expect to brew a tasty beer. It's best to start out with simple processes and recipes, and as you get more proficient and comfortable start increasing the complexity. A lot of people start with extract brewing before moving to all grain, but this is not necessary if you think you have the skills to start with all grain. Some guidelines:

• Start with ales rather than lagers. Temperature control is easier.
• Start with low to moderate gravity (alcohol) recipes, rather than high gravity (alcohol) recipes.
• When starting all grain, do single infusion (temperature) mashes, rather than stepped temp or decoction mashes.
• When starting all grain, consider doing BIAB (brew in a bag), rather than three vessel. Less equipment is required.
• Use priming sugar when bottling, rather than trying to prime with wort.

There are lots of different process variations that can all make outstanding beer. Once you do some more reading, and get some experience, things will become clearer and make more sense. How you eventually end up brewing is more about personal preference than any one way being better than another.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

Don't expect to brew the perfect anything on your first few attempts. You can expect to brew a tasty beer. It's best to start out with simple processes and recipes, and as you get more proficient and comfortable start increasing the complexity. A lot of people start with extract brewing before moving to all grain, but this is not necessary if you think you have the skills to start with all grain. Some guidelines:

• Start with ales rather than lagers. Temperature control is easier.
• Start with low to moderate gravity (alcohol) recipes, rather than high gravity (alcohol) recipes.
• When starting all grain, do single infusion (temperature) mashes, rather than stepped temp or decoction mashes.
• When starting all grain, consider doing BIAB (brew in a bag), rather than three vessel. Less equipment is required.
• Use priming sugar when bottling, rather than trying to prime with wort.

There are lots of different process variations that can all make outstanding beer. Once you do some more reading, and get some experience, things will become clearer and make more sense. How you eventually end up brewing is more about personal preference than any one way being better than another.

Brew on

Click to expand...

Definitely use sugar rather than wort. If you weigh the sugar, you get a known amount of fermentable sugar so you can get the proper carbonation. With wort, the amount of sugars that can be fermenter can vary considerably.

From what I've read, European malts are often not fully modified so they benefit from the step mash where you start with a low temperature for a period of time, raise the temperature to another step, wait for that process to finish, then raise to the next step. Western malts are fully modified so you won't need all the steps. Your English brewing books were probably written by someone that normally uses the fully modified malts so they describe the different process. You can use these techniques with the less than full modified malts but the results will be slightly different.

You do not have to start with extracts, you can go to all grain brewing right away if you do it right but the biggest factor that is different for all grain is getting the temperature right for the mash which is easily done with software to calculate the temperature of the water needed to get to the mashing temperature when the grains are added and a very accurate thermometer....and attention to detail.

Have you visited anyone that was brewing or sat through a brew day? That would help with a lot of your questions.

milldoggy said:

Have you visited anyone that was brewing or sat through a brew day? That would help with a lot of your questions.

Click to expand...

^^^This.

Or at least watch several youtube videos so you can have a better sense of what the correct steps are. Don Osborne has several videos that explain batch sparging without any attitude whatsoever.

doug293cz said:

Don't expect to brew the perfect anything on your first few attempts. You can expect to brew a tasty beer. It's best to start out with simple processes and recipes, and as you get more proficient and comfortable start increasing the complexity. A lot of people start with extract brewing before moving to all grain, but this is not necessary if you think you have the skills to start with all grain.

Click to expand...

So many "issues"...
I am German, like really German, I lived in Munich for most of my life... so a tasty beer is just nothing that will make me really happy.
I am a terrible nerd and I have no issue admitting that. Before I do anything I attempt to be prepared and well educated and there is a personal "turning point" where I feel all the information gathered needs to be translated into practical attempts. Unless I have reached that "point" I wont do anything but rather read/learn more.

Although I guess making a plan on what I am aiming for and submitting a step by step list to this forum asking you guys if that might work, will be priceless. And I will be sure to do that before wasting precious resources.

Some guidelines:

• Start with ales rather than lagers. Temperature control is easier.
• Start with low to moderate gravity (alcohol) recipes, rather than high gravity (alcohol) recipes.
• When starting all grain, do single infusion (temperature) mashes, rather than stepped temp or decoction mashes.
• When starting all grain, consider doing BIAB (brew in a bag), rather than three vessel. Less equipment is required.
• Use priming sugar when bottling, rather than trying to prime with wort.

Click to expand...

I looked into the bags for brewing because it seems so much less of a hassle.
I can absolutely consider doing that.

There are lots of different process variations that can all make outstanding beer. Once you do some more reading, and get some experience, things will become clearer and make more sense. How you eventually end up brewing is more about personal preference than any one way being better than another.

Click to expand...

maybe I should really keep it simple for the first couple of attempts and then slowly pick up on more sophisticated stuff....

Thanks!
I'll keep you guys posted on my experiment

milldoggy said:

Have you visited anyone that was brewing or sat through a brew day? That would help with a lot of your questions.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I do not know anyone who is home brewing. I have a friend in Germany who is a Brewmaster working for a large Bavarian Brewery so obv. that doesn't help at all

Peruvian said:

^^^This.

Or at least watch several youtube videos so you can have a better sense of what the correct steps are. Don Osborne has several videos that explain batch sparging without any attitude whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Thanks!
will definitely check that out.

I applaud you for setting your goals so high but it is all too easy to get discouraged by trying an overly complex process early on only to be dissappointed in the final result.

Lagers are tricky but fun to make as I'm learning.

If you're looking to make a beer with some German techniques you are describing like decoction mashing and krausening you should check out Kaiser's Alt and Kaiser's website on lager making.

A treasure trove of information relating to lots of topics including traditional German methods. I've learned a great deal from this legendary guy.

On the open fermentation. It is done by many breweries including many German ones. Beer sits in open vats when fermentation is vigourous prior to being transferred to bright-tanks to finish off before packaging. Not something I've tried to date.

Braumeise said:

haha I know I have to buy extract but I don't want to and I don't want a beer KIT... to me that seems like making Miràcoli and call it cooking.

I like to do stuff from scratch although you are right, I tend to confuse myself...

I guess I will start buying my equipment now and I know what I want to do and how it should taste.
I will keep records... but right now I don't feel confident that I did enough reading... and I did read How to brew (the book, not online) along with some other literature.

Augustiner Brewery Munich separates the Husk from the grains and adds an extract made from the husks later to the wort. That was my point for asking and that was the extract I was talking about "making"--- just to clarify this confusion.

Click to expand...

I know what you mean about not feeling like you are brewing by using a kit, however, for your first time out a kit will likely result in a drinkable beer even if you make some mistakes. You can select one with steeping grains so you are acctually doing more than opening a can or bag of extract.

As far as the differences in German practices, there is more than one "right" way to do things. Take what you like, and do be German about your sanitation!

Braumeise said:

Unfortunately I do not know anyone who is home brewing. I have a friend in Germany who is a Brewmaster working for a large Bavarian Brewery so obv. that doesn't help at all

Click to expand...

Join a home brew club, you profile says in are in doylestown, there are a few around. You always welcome to come over, I am in collegeville.

Braumeise said:

Gotcha!

makes sense what you are saying... yet I can not even think of buying a KIT for extract brewing...

Click to expand...

Unless you are presuming that all extract kits use prehopped wort, that makes sense only if you are primarily seeking to learn about ingredient shopping. The only difference between buying an unhopped extract kit and making an extract brew from a recipe is the purchasing process. Same for all-grain kits v. buying recipe ingredients a la carte. When the time comes to use the ingredients, you have the same items on the table either way. On brew day and thereafter, the processes and results are identical.

RM-MN said:

Definitely use sugar rather than wort. If you weigh the sugar, you get a known amount of fermentable sugar so you can get the proper carbonation. With wort, the amount of sugars that can be fermenter can vary considerably.

From what I've read, European malts are often not fully modified so they benefit from the step mash where you start with a low temperature for a period of time, raise the temperature to another step, wait for that process to finish, then raise to the next step. Western malts are fully modified so you won't need all the steps. Your English brewing books were probably written by someone that normally uses the fully modified malts so they describe the different process. You can use these techniques with the less than full modified malts but the results will be slightly different.

You do not have to start with extracts, you can go to all grain brewing right away if you do it right but the biggest factor that is different for all grain is getting the temperature right for the mash which is easily done with software to calculate the temperature of the water needed to get to the mashing temperature when the grains are added and a very accurate thermometer....and attention to detail.

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many Thanks!
I am not sure if that helps but I am a very decent cook and baker and am used to stuff that needs a certain temperature over a longer amount of time, or multi step preparation - so I am pretty confident if I practice with my equipment and water that I should be able to figure that out and I would have done that anyway... practice with just water to get acquainted with the equipment and how to move it from point a to b and how to best set up my "stage" so I can do it without inviting "chaos".

Attention to detail is something I am not afraid of... I am more afraid of my brain not processing the information in a foreign language right and misunderstanding crucial steps....

and also this http://www.brewrecipedeveloper.de/ looks like a useful tool to me in addition to keeping my own personal recipe bible / brewing journal.

If there is something more useful out there for calculations I am happy if you hint me to it.

tgolanos said:

What German-language sources are you using? I'd love to read through some of it myself.

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This is where I found the clone for Augustiner which calls for separating the husk/Spelts from the grain before mashing.


http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=22797

jrcrilly said:

Unless you are presuming that all extract kits use prehopped wort, that makes sense only if you are primarily seeking to learn about ingredient shopping. The only difference between buying an unhopped extract kit and making an extract brew from a recipe is the purchasing process. Same for all-grain kits v. buying recipe ingredients a la carte. When the time comes to use the ingredients, you have the same items on the table either way. On brew day and thereafter, the processes and results are identical.

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YES! Shopping is the key word here
I make spread sheets for equipment shopping
I hate shopping in general, but if it is shopping for a greater goal like cooking dinner or baking something outstanding, than it is part of the "process" I need to feel like archiving something outstanding

Plus I want to know exactly what I am putting in there in what amount....
basics so to say...

milldoggy said:

Join a home brew club, you profile says in are in doylestown, there are a few around. You always welcome to come over, I am in collegeville.

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Thank you!
I'll do that! Really! If you let me know when you are brewing and if you don't mind tons of "Stupid questions" I can try to be helpful or stand back and don't touch anything and be invisible I am very good adapting to my environment so I guess I can promise not to be a pain in the .... if you let me watch and learn.

I thought about joining a club but I thought I might wanna brew something first ? Otherwise it is like joining a cooking club without owning a stove...

Hoppy2bmerry said:

I know what you mean about not feeling like you are brewing by using a kit, however, for your first time out a kit will likely result in a drinkable beer even if you make some mistakes. You can select one with steeping grains so you are acctually doing more than opening a can or bag of extract.

As far as the differences in German practices, there is more than one "right" way to do things. Take what you like, and do be German about your sanitation!

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No worries about sanitation here... I am recovering OCD although it almost never applied to my house only to my work spaces

A Kit will rob me of the possibility to learn how to put ingredients together... like I am not buying cake mixes to bake a cake since I have a scale and measuring cups/ spoons and know how to use them.

Gavin C said:

I applaud you for setting your goals so high but it is all too easy to get discouraged by trying an overly complex process early on only to be dissappointed in the final result.

Lagers are tricky but fun to make as I'm learning.

If you're looking to make a beer with some German techniques you are describing like decoction mashing and krausening you should check out Kaiser's Alt and Kaiser's website on lager making.

A treasure trove of information relating to lots of topics including traditional German methods. I've learned a great deal from this legendary guy.

On the open fermentation. It is done by many breweries including many German ones. Beer sits in open vats when fermentation is vigourous prior to being transferred to bright-tanks to finish off before packaging. Not something I've tried to date.

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Picture looks very familiar to me
That is what I have in mind when thinking of brewing. I literally lived footsteps away from Paulaner Brewery and passed Spaten Brewery on a daily basis and Spaten has these huge windows that allow you to see whats going on inside

Mille grazie for the links, will certainly check it out.

I'll post my spread sheets and my plan and my planed ingredients list as well as my general "Master plan" so all you Guys can have a good laugh and correct me before I attempt making something drinkable

So far I am overwhelmed by the helpful posts here.
Thanks people you are awesome!

Braumeise said:

This is where I found the clone for Augustiner which calls for separating the husk/Spelts from the grain before mashing.


http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=22797

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I can't read the German but in a quick internet search I find separating the Chaff from grains. That would be a process done before the grain is malted. So if it is not a procedure in working with malted grains, this has already been done before you buy the grains used in homebrewing.

If it is something to do with malted grain I don't know how you could possibly remove the husks from the flour or that you would even want to. If you were able to do it there is no way you could drain the mash. It would become a great big dough ball, or if there was enough water to keep the mash loose it would transfer all the flour into the boil kettle. The husks from the malt are used as a filter to keep all the flour particles out of the boil kettle.

Again, There are a lot of advanced techniques. If you start out too complex for your first few brews you are going to be disappointed in the results.

kh54s10 said:

I can't read the German but in a quick internet search I find separating the Chaff from grains. That would be a process done before the grain is malted. So if it is not a procedure in working with malted grains, this has already been done before you buy the grains used in homebrewing.

If it is something to do with malted grain I don't know how you could possibly remove the husks from the flour or that you would even want to. If you were able to do it there is no way you could drain the mash. It would become a great big dough ball, or if there was enough water to keep the mash loose it would transfer all the flour into the boil kettle. The husks from the malt are used as a filter to keep all the flour particles out of the boil kettle.

Again, There are a lot of advanced techniques. If you start out too complex for your first few brews you are going to be disappointed in the results.

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Bummer! That is sort of what I thought trying to make logical sense of WHEN could this possibly be done and when is it done (in flour production i.e.)

Okay. I'll stop thinking about all of this for today and return to my shopping list

I respectfully submit the following, including these three bits of advice:
1-Start with a kit!
2-Start with a kit!!
3-Start with a kit!!!

A metaphor: When we learn to walk all of us started as an infant worming and rolling around initially, followed by learning how to crawl. Around this time tenuous standing up starts followed by toddling around which as experience builds becomes true walking and then running ability development is right behind that.

Brewing, on some levels, is like this. Like learning to walk and run there are many things that can go wrong in each step of the brewing process!

Starting with a kit merely skips over a few steps in the process. But don't worry, there are still lots of things that you can do incorrectly! With a kit you still have to do most of the work that is required to make beer. You only basically skip over recipe formulation, grinding of the grain, and mashing/sparging.

You still have to pay attention to sanitation, still get to use your brew kettle, still get to cool your wort, still get to pitch the yeast, still get to tend to the fermentation as needed, still get to bottle and/or keg, and still get to drink it!

Starting with a kit lets you get that "back half" of the brewing process down before introducing the "front half" of it.

Prost!

Braumeise said:

Bummer! That is sort of what I thought trying to make logical sense of WHEN could this possibly be done and when is it done (in flour production i.e.)

Okay. I'll stop thinking about all of this for today and return to my shopping list

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If you're REALLY interested in adding some sort of chaff, you can always add rice hulls to your grain bill. A lot of brewers do that to help prevent stuck sparges. I've never done it, but I am not a very advanced brewer, and I rarely brew beer, although I love beer, it just takes more time than I have available. I mainly brew hard ciders, myself.

Newsman said:

If you're REALLY interested in adding some sort of chaff, you can always add rice hulls to your grain bill. A lot of brewers do that to help prevent stuck sparges. I've never done it, but I am not a very advanced brewer, and I rarely brew beer, although I love beer, it just takes more time than I have available. I mainly brew hard ciders, myself.

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His question was not about adding chaff, but reference an article in German that talked about removing the husks before mashing. I cannot read German so I can't look at it to see at what point in the process or even how or why they are removing husks.

jwelch1103 said:

I respectfully submit the following, including these three bits of advice:
1-Start with a kit!
2-Start with a kit!!
3-Start with a kit!!!

A metaphor: When we learn to walk all of us started as an infant worming and rolling around initially, followed by learning how to crawl. Around this time tenuous standing up starts followed by toddling around which as experience builds becomes true walking and then running ability development is right behind that.

Brewing, on some levels, is like this. Like learning to walk and run there are many things that can go wrong in each step of the brewing process!

Starting with a kit merely skips over a few steps in the process. But don't worry, there are still lots of things that you can do incorrectly! With a kit you still have to do most of the work that is required to make beer. You only basically skip over recipe formulation, grinding of the grain, and mashing/sparging.

You still have to pay attention to sanitation, still get to use your brew kettle, still get to cool your wort, still get to pitch the yeast, still get to tend to the fermentation as needed, still get to bottle and/or keg, and still get to drink it!

Starting with a kit lets you get that "back half" of the brewing process down before introducing the "front half" of it.

Prost!

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Quoted for emphasis, because I was about to post this same thing. Kits are far more involved than buying a cake mix, at least in my opinion. If nothing else, it gives you a clean slate to start on for fermentation. If something does go wrong and you are trying to figure out, "Why does my beer taste bad" This at least should give you a good starting ground to make sure you can pinpoint some mistakes, before you add too much to the process. I think too many beginners underestimate the power of good fermentation, enough yeast, good temps, etc. Usually, when I've tasted a "Bad" beer, it's because the fermentation was off, not because they added a grain I'm not a fan of.

The following picture shows what a proper grain crush should look like. If you google "noonan grain crush homebrewtalk" there's a thread that discusses percentages of husk, crushed grain, flour, etc. Some of the pictures won't load but you'll get the grist of the thread. Sorry.

I like the JSP Malt Mill because one model allows you to adjust one side and you get a varied level of crush.

You may want to try a kit, at least one time, because it allows you to concentrate on two of the salient features of brewing that often bedevil the beginning brewer: sanitation and fermentation temperature control. Once you get these down, and it will only be once, you can move on to all-grain brewing. Or just dive in; it's fun either way.

Interesting thread...as a retired shop teacher my best advice would be to go help someone brew as soon as possible. You will realize that most of the worry is for nothing, and that it is much easier than expected. You will also get a chance to taste someone's homebrew while you're at it...just don't taste too much until the fermentor is happily put to bed...
Enjoy!

Kit or recipe, it doesn't matter. What does matter is not getting involved in complex procedures. Get a simple method down and learn it then expand from there. Many people start with all grain and not a kit. But the successful ones take a tried and true recipe and use a simple brewing method and stick to that until they get the procedures down.

After you get comfortable with simple recipes and procedures you can take more advanced steps, like step infusion mashes or decoction mashes. Neither of which I would recommend for a beginner. Lagers or very high gravity brews I would also recommend against.

Another way beginners mess up is to try to alter a kit or recipe without knowledge of what effects their alterations will have on the end product.

Keep it simple to start off.

Braumeise said:

True... that is why I am not yet brewing but still reading

...and why my first brew will be white ale!
and why I will probably take many more month before I dare touching malt and hops...

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I applaud you in your pursuit for perfection. I highly recommend you start with All Grain brewing using a step mash process and begin with lagers from the start.

This is what you want to drink, and this is what you should be brewing.

There is a difference between most homebrewers and you. You have a very narrow end result planned. Most homebrewers love the variety you can get by brewing your own, from pale to dark ales, german lagers, Belgian funk, etc.

Not you. You want a particular beer so don't bother messing with those other techniques! There is no reason an intelligent person can't start brewing lagers right from the start if they are willing to read up on it, get the right equipment, and be patient.

I believe what you want to do is a step mash or decoction mash for your beer. This can be done with BIAB, which is an easy and inexpensive way to brew All Grain. A cooler mash tun doesn't make this easy, but if you do Decoction, then you will pulling a portion of the mash out of the cooler and boiling it and putting it back in. This is how the temperature gets higher. How much you pull out and boil determines how much hotter the mash is going to be.

I have no idea what you mean by separating the spelt etc. That is not something I'm familiar with, but I admit there is probably a LOT about German lager brewing methods that I don't know about.

One thing I do know. If you want to brew German Lagers, you will need a way to control the temperature. I recommend a small chest freezer and a temp controller like an STC-1000 to maintain primary temps (50F) and lagering temps (around 32F). I don't think you will be happy unless you can maintain the proper lager temps.

Lastly, I highly recommend you check out Kai's website:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

Kai is a very detailed and precise brewer who's done lots of experimenting in the past. He is the epitome of German Engineer as fast as I can tell. I don't know how much homebrewing experimenting he's done lately (he's got other hobbies too) but you may be interested in what he's done so far. I know I've seen a video or two on his techniques.

Keeping aiming for your goals. I know you have the attention to detail that lager brewing requires.