My Picobrew Thread

Hi All,

Been here on and off for a number of years now. I started homebrewing after my freshman year in college (relax, I lived in Canada) and kept it up for about two and a half years and 30-35 batches. At that point I transferred to a school in the US and brought some of my gear back with me. I made a few bad batches, buckled down in school, and then sold a ton of my gear to fund a summer off on my motorcycle - this included my grain mill, mash tun, boil kettle, burner, a bunch of kegs (should have kept tho$e)

Told myself I'd get back into it after school, but instead I got a full time job, a project car, and started grad school Kept the job, haven't finished the car (its close, I swear :cross, and finished grad school - and started feeling like I'm never going to have any free time to get back into brewing.

Like many here I sold my soul to be an engineer - so what if I build myself an automated homebrewing system?! Yeah, like I have time for THAT! But seriously, I want to be a grand brewmaster someday. I need to invest my 10k hours somehow, right? Enter the picobrew.

As far as I can tell - there are three camps for the Picobrew:

1) the "never in 1,000 years - standing over a HLT trying to hit your strike water temperature that you've calculated from the amount of grain, water you intend to use, ambient temperature and intended mash temperature is the only way you'll ever learn make good beer" camp.

2) the "I'd buy one, but its too expensive" crowd.

3) the "yup, I'm buying one!" traitors.

Now, for the same reason I don't exclusively listen to/read/watch CNN, NPR, or Fox News - I am a little bit of all of those. AND I bought a Picobrew. I want control and records for my brews, without standing around with a thermometer in my hand.

I made it into the end of the "pre-order" session in January 2015 after I knew that the product was actually shipping and I had read enough feedback to learn that the machine wasn't a complete piece of garbage - and I was stoked to get it. They've stepped up their production, and I had mine within 2 months of ordering, receiving a tentative shipment date of a few weeks after someone who had pre-ordered in October or November. Not bad!

So I received it yesterday, March 7, 2015, and my second brew is currently underway. First impression? Wow - impressive piece of equipment. No way anyway could have built anything a quarter of caliber in less than hundreds of hours of design, component selection, fabrication and software writing. I think the designers went through 3 prototypes? Very solid, and cool.





I had the option of plugging it into ethernet or connecting to my Wi-Fi (no brainer) and it it was already tied to my Picobrew account - which is assigned when you're assigned a unit production number. I did that, thought I did a rinse, and then proceeded to dial up the Pico Pale Ale kit they provided. I tweaked the recipe for slightly higher IBU's, synced the recipe to my Pico- and was off!

Well not quite, the mash wasn't holding temperature and the mash tun part of the step filter wasn't filling with water. WTF Picobrew? Relax - its probably my fault and.... yep! The oring I put on the keg while rebuilding it was too small - air was getting pulled in while the pump tried to pull the wort/water in - so I wasn't getting a full flow. Whoops.



Fix that and try again :cross:



I actually fell asleep during the boil!

Cleanup took about 25 minutes since I tried to do the machine's rinse with the mash tun still full (hint, empty it) and had to re-do the rinse. I did a no chill brew - opting to drain the machine after the chill alarm sounded to hook up a wort chiller, and stuck the keg in a snow bank while I cleaned, moving it to the basement before bed. I pitched the yeast this morning, and we'll see how it turns out!

My intentions for the Picobrew, and this thread, are to make as much good beer as possible. I'm a huge data geek- so the brewing logs/plots (above) are a big sell for the Picobrew. I'm brewing three batches this weekend including the Pico Pale and two of my former favorite clones (DFH 60 Min IPA and Bell's Two Heart) - Right now is the perfect time to ferment in the common area of the house, but I have all of the parts to build a BrewPi Fermentation Controller, which I will use with my mini-fridge kegerator (fits two kegs) as a fermentation chamber/cooler, and a seed germination mat as a heater. The BrewPi will also give me the ability to log fermentation temperatures, thus nearly completing the grain to glass data log. I'm currently planning on doing closed vessel transfers to minimize oxidation for secondary/carbinating - and bottling from the keg. We'll see how long that last actually happens.

The Picobrew is currently in the middle of ramping to a Maltose rest - and its warm out, so I'm going to go walk the dogs! I'll post the temperature chart and a bit on the Picobrew advanced recipe control editor later once this brew has completed!

Okay - I promised to post more so I'm getting to it.

The brew I did yesterday afternoon (when I finished writing my first post) was a clone of Dogfish Head's 60 minute IPA provided by Yooper. I hemmed and hawed about about how specifically to go about hopping the beer, and ended up using a pretty basic schedule based on posts later in the thread. The hop schedule wasn't really my concern despite being "continuously hopped" as many making that beer now profess to simple additions. I wanted to try a fancier mash - one I could never perform with my cooler mash-tun and trusty measuring cup before. So I did.

Yuri_Rage said:

Mash In: Add 60 qt of water at 90 F
Maltose Rest: Heat to 145 F over 20 min, rest 30 min
Saccharification: Heat to 155 F over 2 min, rest 60 min
Mash Out: Heat to 170 F over 2 min

Click to expand...

Below is a screen shot of the advanced recipe editor on the Picobrew site. Next you'll see the graph of the brew that it helped me perform. All in all I think its pretty great - but I do have one major complaint: if you alter the recipe in anyway in the recipe editor (third picture below - pretty standard) all of your advanced settings get wiped out! It happened to me a few times - I decided to change my hop schedule to have 2 additions of Warrior - thought I was done, changed the advanced editor. Measured my hops, whoops - .22 oz of Amarillo and Simcoe to the final addition. Problem? Not really, I could have tossed them back in the bag, but I wanted to keep them since .22 oz really is not that much. Change the recipe to reflect the change, have to go back and re-edit the advanced editor. That is the reason there is a chill cycle even thought I did a no chill and used a snowbank instead.

In their defense, Annie has mentioned this to the Picobrew people as a personal frustration and the fact that users have mentioned it - I'm just hoping they get a little more traction behind changing it.





Edit - ****, now I did it again.



Anyway, that brew went great and I set up the Clone of Bell's Two hearted afterward. That one went fine - except I forgot the keg-coozie/insulator jacket, so I stopped it right away and had to restart the brew afterward. This morning I went to delete the false-start from my Sessions log, and deleted the wrong log. Totally my bad. Oh well, I mashed using a single step infusion at 150 for 90 minutes and used all of the prescribed hop additions except for stepping the final one back to 5 or 7 minutes or something like that. My no chill this time consisted of putting the keg in the basement overnight, and using water in a bucket to get the final few degrees this morning so I could pitch the yeast before work.



I'm happy to say that the DFH clone is happily bubbling away. The Pico pale has krusen on top but the blow-off tube may be poorly seated in the pressure relief valve hole, or one of the poppets may be open, so I'm not seeing bubbles. As of tonight the 2 hearted clone isn't showing airlock activity. Maybe soon.

I started this thread to get information out there that may not be obvious about the Picobrew - I'm hoping to touch on things I wanted to know (besides everything) before I shelled out for mine. Feel free to ask away!

Thanks for all the info..

I'm in the.. "I'm getting one eventually camp!"

No problem. Any questions for me and I'll help best I can - this thread will only be updated (about the Picobrew) in fits and starts because I won't have the opportunity to brew every weekend.

My next update will probably be about finishing my BrewPi Controller. Even though there is already a thread on that (like the Picobrew) I figure people interested in automating brewing might want to automate temp control. I'm wishing I had temperature control for these brews. Last night the DFH clone was warmer to the touch than the other two kegs - this morning the blow off tube has basically stopped... I'm not sure if it was the Nottingham vs US-05 or what, but it clearly fermented at a higher rate than the others.

Why does the wort temp trend down at the end of each phase?

I've been wondering that as well - I'll let you know when I get an answer from them.

How do you program a hopstand?

I've always liked this thing but it is expensive and I despise how everything needs to flow through an online account and the internet. Direct link via USB or Bluetooth forma desktop, tablet, and or phone is fine and private.

Weezy said:

How do you program a hopstand?

I've always liked this thing but it is expensive and I despise how everything needs to flow through an online account and the internet. Direct link via USB or Bluetooth forma desktop, tablet, and or phone is fine and private.

Click to expand...

Hopstand=whirlpooling, yes? You can program a pass through loop through an adjunct basket without a temperature set ( so the wort won't be heated as it circulates) or as you chill. There is an example of that programming on the PicoBrew forum I'll try and snag later - credit Picobrew of course.

I agree with the last part as well but Im hoping it can be addressed when/if they open source like they said they would. I'm not sure if its cloud hosted, but if the PicoBrew sever went down for a weekend or few days there would probably be some pretty negative backlash from the community to help spur those changes, since it would be Picobrew's fault that we couldn't brew.

preinke said:

Why does the wort temp trend down at the end of each phase?

Click to expand...

The unconfirmed theory is that the temperature sags occur during the drain cycle because the wort temperature thermocouple (?) Is bypassed. This makes sense to me as I believe they correlate with my drain periods. I'm still hoping for feedback from PicoBrew on this- the forums are slow and sparse .

Pardon the mess on the kitchen table, but I started building my brew pi yesterday. I'm doing all of the wiring now to accommodate a second Arduino uno to run two chambers, or just a blanket heater setup in the winter.

My set is being built in a cheap but rugged Stanley toolbox. It has fused/switched power coming in from the power entry module on the rear which will breakout to an inline female 125V plug to power the pi/arduino as well as the GFCI outlets / relays. Temperature probes will be passed out through a brush wall plate which will also accommodate HDMI cables for a screen for the Pi, and any other cables as needed (I did this specifically as I know I might fail to anticipate future cabling needs.) The 4 relay block and uno will be screwed down to the lexan baseplate and I'm going to Velcro the Pi case down (if I can ever find my freaking Velcro.)

Hope to finish it tonight, if the dogs will let me.

As for my first Picobrewed batches, they have at least 7 days in the primary now and have surely completed, as using full yeast packets undoubtedly was over pitching. I'm waiting on mesh bags to show up for dry hopping and will probably rack to secondary on Wednesday night for a quick secondary to be bottled Sunday before I leave on work travel.

View attachment 1426507649895.jpg

Cross posted from the BrewPi thread:

Alright, so I finished my box to about 90% completion this evening - went to turn it on annnndddd... my DPDT Power Entry Module Switch was broken - one of the poles doesn't contact when the switch is "On" Grrrrr... Opened an Amazon ticket to get a replacement.

So here is my box from the front. Yes, its ugly, but it was $10. Job boxes are expensive!



Setup for two Arduino Uno's to control two GFCI outlets.



"Brushed" pass through panel that will allow me any number of temperature probes, an HDMI cable, and whatever else I need to stick in there.



Internals. Need to tie down the Pi case. The four relay module was $1 more than the two relay module. Have plenty of space to put another Uno in there. In addition to running White/Ground off the Power Entry Module, I pushed the wires to a female outlet and a 3 outlet breakout - which I can use to power the Pi and Arduinos. Wiring is a little messy but I used 3 port In-Sure push in wire connectors, accommodating 12-20 gauge wires since I had so many AC connections, and I don't have much more patience to clean it up at this point in time.



Still don't have it up and running with the temperature probes so I don't know if I have the wiring correct. Can't wait!

Today I got my StarSan in the mail so I went ahead and transferred all of the beers to secondaries. As far as I can tell this will be entirely necessary for every batch that is Picobrewed and then fermented in the keg, because you never really know how much trub you'll end up with. The upside of this, is that transferring is a breeze going from one keg to another, as long as you're not stingy about using CO2. Honestly - a closed vessel transfer was like a dream.

I've had a 20# tank that I got with a Craigslist purchase back in ~2009. I've used it to push a bunch of 5 gallon kegs, and even a few half barrels at parties - the thing is awesome, and I hope it holds up to carbing these kegs and bottling them.

In the spirit of this thread, I took some (truly craptastic) pictures while I was doing the transfers - but only two of them came out.

Here I have my ball-lock to ball-lock jumper, and the two cleaning wands that come with the Picobrew which allow you to open up and keep open a liquid or gas ball-lock connector. All I had to do was pop one on each end of the jumper, and I could squirt Starsan right down in!



After purging my receiving tank with CO2, I pushed the beer from one keg to the other. Finished in about 3 minutes or so.



Since I have 6 kegs, 1 with some pretty old (bad? vinegar? awesome?) mead in it, and 1 that I was unable to rebuild after cleaning (on the section where the ball lock post threads on is dented into the keg and you can't fully tighten the post on) - I currently only have available kegs. So doing my transfers I had to move one beer, clean the old keg, move the next beer, clean the keg, move, clean. That was a bummer. I plan on checking out the mead and recovering that keg, so I'll have 5 in rotation, however I may pick up a few more.

I dry hopped the DFH and Bell's clones yesterday, and I moved the hop bags over with the transfers today. They'll have 4-5 days with the dry hops before bottling (which should be Sunday)- hopefully thats enough. I haven't bottled since my third or fourth batch back in 2008, and never with my bottling gun from a carbed keg so that will be an adventure.

nice, i'm in the "I'll get when its cheaper and bigger batch" camp.

jason1973 said:

nice, i'm in the "I'll get when its cheaper and bigger batch" camp.

Click to expand...

A lot of people are, and I can understand why - but I have a hard enough time getting through a 12 pack of brews without getting bored, or drinking a case of beer in a month - so the bigger batch thing doesn't really apply to me :cross:

I do however wish it had even a variable batch size so that I could do bigger (or smaller) batches- down the road I may experiment with doing a strong mash/boil and scaling up with fresh water afterward for a bigger batch - much like extract brewing.

So many things I want to try - so little time!

Baja_Brewer said:

A lot of people are, and I can understand why - but I have a hard enough time getting through a 12 pack of brews without getting bored, or drinking a case of beer in a month - so the bigger batch thing doesn't really apply to me :cross:

I do however wish it had even a variable batch size so that I could do bigger (or smaller) batches- down the road I may experiment with doing a strong mash/boil and scaling up with fresh water afterward for a bigger batch - much like extract brewing.

So many things I want to try - so little time!

Click to expand...

batch size wouldnt be an issue if was cheaper, just run it twice and combine in bigger fermenter before pitching yeast

Baja_Brewer said:

A lot of people are, and I can understand why - but I have a hard enough time getting through a 12 pack of brews without getting bored, or drinking a case of beer in a month - so the bigger batch thing doesn't really apply to me :cross:

I do however wish it had even a variable batch size so that I could do bigger (or smaller) batches- down the road I may experiment with doing a strong mash/boil and scaling up with fresh water afterward for a bigger batch - much like extract brewing.

So many things I want to try - so little time!

Click to expand...

Actually, you can change the batch size (finished volume) in the recipe crafter thing. The limit is the 9 lbs of grain...

Someone's got a batch that's 3.5 gallons, though I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm routinely getting 24 bottles + a few, at a batch a week for me, it works.

Namocsid said:

Actually, you can change the batch size (finished volume) in the recipe crafter thing. The limit is the 9 lbs of grain...

Someone's got a batch that's 3.5 gallons, though I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm routinely getting 24 bottles + a few, at a batch a week for me, it works.

Click to expand...

Thats good to know- I haven't really poked around the public recipe sections yet! I have too many brews off here that I want to get rolling first, and its only been a week since I received my machine. Running 2+ brews in a day really isn't an issue as long as I'll be around the house at some points to transition the batches. 2.5 gallon yield should be just over 26 bottles - I didn't weigh my output but I think I finished a little high on a few of my first brews, plus I'll be using some 11.2oz Guiness Draught bottles (the curvy ones) for bottling - so that may add up to another few.

Once I have ingredients stocked up and a pipeline flowing I'm thinking my brewdays with free time look like: setup batch, bottle or keg existing batches, transition primarys to secondaries, clean kegs, wait for Picobrew to finish. If I don't have free time it will be: setup batch, get back to the Picobrew when it's finished. I really do hope they open source the thing and we get remote starts going - I'd love to come home in time to turn the chiller on.

I really want to get another batch going but won't have time for the next week. Hopefully the following week I can get a batch or two rolling, and then have my specialty grains ordered for when the New England Grain Buy comes in.

Baja_Brewer said:

Thats good to know- I haven't really poked around the public recipe sections yet! I have too many brews off here that I want to get rolling first, and its only been a week since I received my machine. Running 2+ brews in a day really isn't an issue as long as I'll be around the house at some points to transition the batches. 2.5 gallon yield should be just over 26 bottles - I didn't weigh my output but I think I finished a little high on a few of my first brews, plus I'll be using some 11.2oz Guiness Draught bottles (the curvy ones) for bottling - so that may add up to another few.

Once I have ingredients stocked up and a pipeline flowing I'm thinking my brewdays with free time look like: setup batch, bottle or keg existing batches, transition primarys to secondaries, clean kegs, wait for Picobrew to finish. If I don't have free time it will be: setup batch, get back to the Picobrew when it's finished. I really do hope they open source the thing and we get remote starts going - I'd love to come home in time to turn the chiller on.

I really want to get another batch going but won't have time for the next week. Hopefully the following week I can get a batch or two rolling, and then have my specialty grains ordered for when the New England Grain Buy comes in.

Click to expand...

Found it! have a look at the "Delp House Ale" when you get a chance.

My brew day is usually something like:
Come home from work at lunch, set up batch, press "go", go back to work. Watch progress on the web, come home, chill, pitch, clean up.

I usually bottle on other days, and I'm using a peristaltic pump to go from primary to bottles. (though due to one of those days where EVERYTHING goes wrong, last week I ended up using welding shielding gas to push the beer like you're using CO2 for~ works great!).

Really takes the work out of brewing and leaves me free to... drink more beer!

I was thinking, here is what picobrew faq sais about batch size
"The Zymatic® can brew up to 2.5 gallons of finished beer per batch. This is usually about 3 gallons of wort prior to fermentation, but depends on the recipe. The reasons behind this yield are two-fold: grain capacity of the step filter, and water capacity of the keg/fermenter. For a lighter beer, it’s certainly possible to do a slightly larger batch. For more alcoholic beers, the yield may be slightly less than 2.5 gallons of finished beer. "
so i was wondering if had a 5gallon recipe with 9lb's or less of grain and a 10gallon keg, would you be able do a 5 gallon batch.
also
"We’ve been able to brew all-grain beers up to 1.090 OG in the Zymatic®. For extremely high gravity beers you can add some DME (dry malt extract) directly in with the rest of the grain. We’ve been able to brew beers up to 1.100 O.G. this way. It is possible to go bigger and those techniques are explained fully in our PicoBrew Forums."
I wonder does this mean we can do partial and extracts(if dme not lme) in zymatic.

jason1973 said:

I was thinking, here is what picobrew faq sais about batch size
...
so i was wondering if had a 5gallon recipe with 9lb's or less of grain and a 10gallon keg, would you be able do a 5 gallon batch.

Click to expand...

I checked and confirmed what you said that the recipe crafter will only let you do up to 3.5 gallon batches - thats a shame. I'm wondering if there is an upper limit on how much water flows out of the mash tun portion of the step filter. One of the three batches I've done its looked like it was damn near overflowing.

I was thinking of ways you could do 2.5 gallon batches in a 3 gallon keg - and you could put the extra, cold water in the grains prior to starting the machine without too much of an adverse affect, since most that extra is absorbed anyway. Foaming is likely going to be an issue, but the foam catcher might handle that. I notice they will let you basically go as low for batch size as you desire - which is interesting because (per the other picobrew thread) they don't recommend batch sizes less than 2.5 gallons.

jason1973 said:

I wonder does this mean we can do partial and extracts(if dme not lme) in zymatic.

Click to expand...

I don't see why not - thus my thought on topping up like you would with a partial boil extract batch.

So I bottled on Sunday and that was a bit of a disaster. I carbed at high pressures since I was in a hurry and was more concerned about having enough bottles. Well long story short I had plenty of bottles since I lost a bunch of beer to foaming due, I think, a combination of the high carbonation pressure (I did bleed the kegs) and my bottling gun not being fully sorted.

I was getting a lot of foaming back out of the bottling gun - note that I did use a worm drive clamp to secure the tubing to the bottling gun end of the beer line, since the clamp they had provided was busted. I'm hoping a better clamp will help this, but I do wish the end of the bottling gun was barbed.

Anyway, my two recipes tasted good at bottling- which probably had a lot to do with the dry hops. The Pico Pale Ale didn't taste so great... I'll see how it is next week.

Baja_Brewer said:

I checked and confirmed what you said that the recipe crafter will only let you do up to 3.5 gallon batches - thats a shame. I'm wondering if there is an upper limit on how much water flows out of the mash tun portion of the step filter. One of the three batches I've done its looked like it was damn near overflowing.

I was thinking of ways you could do 2.5 gallon batches in a 3 gallon keg - and you could put the extra, cold water in the grains prior to starting the machine without too much of an adverse affect, since most that extra is absorbed anyway. Foaming is likely going to be an issue, but the foam catcher might handle that. I notice they will let you basically go as low for batch size as you desire - which is interesting because (per the other picobrew thread) they don't recommend batch sizes less than 2.5 gallons.



I don't see why not - thus my thought on topping up like you would with a partial boil extract batch.

Click to expand...

assumming there is overflow pertection, just let the machine think your doing 2.5 gallons but have more. simple way is if can attach hose to cleanning wands use your 10 gallon kettle(assuming you have one).
as for fermenter i'd keep the 5g keg for 2.5 batch, build a spunding valve and ferment under preasure then when done transfer to 2.5 or 3g keg.
that way only need to chill to drink.
also partial boil sounds doable.

Just got responce from email to pico brew

-----------------
Hello Jason,

You could do a 5 gallon recipe with our system if you had a 10 gallon keg.

We do not recommend using large amounts of DME in the grain bin, really you can only add about a 1/2 lb or so mixed in with the grain to help up your gravity. Any more than that you would want to hydrate and add directly to the keg during boil.

-Kevin

Baja_Brewer said:

So I bottled on Sunday and that was a bit of a disaster. I carbed at high pressures since I was in a hurry and was more concerned about having enough bottles. Well long story short I had plenty of bottles since I lost a bunch of beer to foaming due, I think, a combination of the high carbonation pressure (I did bleed the kegs) and my bottling gun not being fully sorted.

I was getting a lot of foaming back out of the bottling gun - note that I did use a worm drive clamp to secure the tubing to the bottling gun end of the beer line, since the clamp they had provided was busted. I'm hoping a better clamp will help this, but I do wish the end of the bottling gun was barbed.

Anyway, my two recipes tasted good at bottling- which probably had a lot to do with the dry hops. The Pico Pale Ale didn't taste so great... I'll see how it is next week.

Click to expand...

You remember to refrigirate keg for 24hrs before bottling?
And helps if bottles also cold.

jason1973 said:

Just got responce from email to pico brew

-----------------
Hello Jason,

You could do a 5 gallon recipe with our system if you had a 10 gallon keg.

We do not recommend using large amounts of DME in the grain bin, really you can only add about a 1/2 lb or so mixed in with the grain to help up your gravity. Any more than that you would want to hydrate and add directly to the keg during boil.

-Kevin

Click to expand...

Well that settles that - awesome!

jason1973 said:

You remember to refrigirate keg for 24hrs before bottling?
And helps if bottles also cold.

Click to expand...

Kegs were in the garage @ ~ 35-40*F so that was fine. Bottles were not cold but I am aware that helps, just didn't really have the option. The first two batches went okay, the last one went to hell so I'm wondering if something was up with that beer.

Going to have to get it straightened out with a few more session beers, I want to do some Belgians and really don't want to mess up bottling something I intend on aging a bit.

Beer might have been angry, did you vent keg before applying despencing preasure for beer gun? Or could been over carbed, since you have a ferment in keg setup id get a spundingvalve and just carb durring ferment, even if just in secondary.

Now that i know can do 5g, this back on radar as future toy, with brewha biac small and grainfarther.

jason1973 said:

Beer might have been angry, did you vent keg before applying despencing preasure for beer gun? Or could been over carbed, since you have a ferment in keg setup id get a spundingvalve and just carb durring ferment, even if just in secondary.

Click to expand...

Angry? Probably - it was the kit that came with the beer so I discredited it all along. I did vent, etc. etc. I'm still looking up troubleshooting. I'll look into a valve.

jason1973 said:

Now that i know can do 5g, this back on radar as future toy, with brewha biac small and grainfarther.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear it - let me know if you end up going with one.

Baja_Brewer said:

Angry? Probably

Click to expand...

by angry i mean force carbing quickly at high psi realy shakes up the beer, you need let it settle down before tapping, or it will foam every where.

I have a picobrew coming in 2 weeks or so.

Does it come with any grain? Or should I pre-order graint/hops for 2.5 gallon recipe?

was thinking
this

this(in liquid)

this

and a poppet on kettle thermometer port will give you luquid out


and this on lid give gas in,

and you will have a 10 gallon or bigger brew container for zymatic

How does the beer from the picobrew actually taste?

Has anyone finished a batch and tasted it? The video from CNET says the taste is not so great. I'll post my unboxing -- and my first brew -- in a separate thread once the machine comes -- but I admit, I'm worrying that this thing doesn't make great tasting beer. I suspect CNET may have had a sanitation issue -- but I've yet to actually read something from someone that's brewed it, kegged it, and then dispensed it in a glass (as opposed to bottling it).

Anyone?

Here's the CNET thread:

http://www.cnet.com/videos/picobrews-automated-beer-maker-too-pricey-for-most-home-brewers/

cschweda said:

How does the beer from the picobrew actually taste?

Has anyone finished a batch and tasted it? The video from CNET says the taste is not so great. I'll post my unboxing -- and my first brew -- in a separate thread once the machine comes -- but I admit, I'm worrying that this thing doesn't make great tasting beer. I suspect CNET may have had a sanitation issue -- but I've yet to actually read something from someone that's brewed it, kegged it, and then dispensed it in a glass (as opposed to bottling it).

Anyone?

Here's the CNET thread:

http://www.cnet.com/videos/picobrews-automated-beer-maker-too-pricey-for-most-home-brewers/

Click to expand...

but the guys said it was a fermentation problem not mash or boil.

You say you're an engineer, but have you torn the thing down yet? I haven't seen anything about what's actually inside the thing.

So one of my batches is pretty good, one is "meh", and one is infected. All are undercarbonated.

I've concluded that my bottling issue was largely due to my carbonation process - which is expressly not recommended in the beergun manual (which is rife with typos.)

Page 7 said:

Therefore, when carbonating your beer, DO NOT “speed gas” it by applying more than the dispensing pressure. There is no way to control the amount of CO2 entering the beer using this method! Apply the correct amount of pressure (typically 8-12 PSI) and let it sit for a week or so to carbonate.

Click to expand...

Whoops, didn't make it that far when I read the directions.

cschweda said:

I have a picobrew coming in 2 weeks or so.

Does it come with any grain? Or should I pre-order graint/hops for 2.5 gallon recipe?

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It comes with the Pico Pale ale kit. I adjusted the hop additions to push it more towards an IPA, but my batch became infected (I think one or more of my kegs is harboring some nasty stuff.) Are you getting a keg with your Picobrew or are you using kegs you already have?

jason1973 said:

was thinking
this
this(in liquid)
this
and a poppet on kettle thermometer port will give you luquid out
and this on lid give gas in,
and you will have a 10 gallon or bigger brew container for zymatic

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Yeah that would work, you'll just lose the insulation of the neoprene keg jacket included. I would pick up some Reflectix at HD or Amazon to regain that insulation.

I'm going to be using similar fittings when I build my plate chiller. More on that later.

cschweda said:

How does the beer from the picobrew actually taste?

Has anyone finished a batch and tasted it? The video from CNET says the taste is not so great. I'll post my unboxing -- and my first brew -- in a separate thread once the machine comes -- but I admit, I'm worrying that this thing doesn't make great tasting beer. I suspect CNET may have had a sanitation issue -- but I've yet to actually read something from someone that's brewed it, kegged it, and then dispensed it in a glass (as opposed to bottling it).

Anyone?

Here's the CNET thread:

http://www.cnet.com/videos/picobrews-automated-beer-maker-too-pricey-for-most-home-brewers/

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I just posted up how my brews came out but didn't elaborate - My DFH 60 minute clone is good. My 2 Hearted clone is boring. My Picopale was infected. All are under carbonated due to my bottling gun issue. I just got home from being on work travel and don't have the ingredients to brew again this weekend.

Regarding your concern that it doesn't make good beer - from my experience with my first two brews (I really don't know, but) I'm worried about underutilized hops. That is to say, I don't know if the wort has enough contact time with the hops in the step filters for full utilization... I guess its a good thing that the wort is flowing, like a kettle is being constantly stirred, and the convention on the Picobrew boards seems to be to move late (e.g. 1 minute) hop additions to ~5 minutes to make sure you get full contact, but I'm tempted to push them back even more.



I wish this thread and plot had more information.

Things I'm not worried about: mash

Things I want to investigate: boil @ 208*F - I'll get to eventually, probably some weekend when I have the house to myself, I'll do a session beer by doing the first mash in Pico, drain it once the mash is done, boil it stovetop, and do a picobrew of the same mash/boil, then ferment side by side. Depending on what I do, this could also help check the hop utilization.

I haven't watched the CNET video you posted but will later. For some reason, I loathe watching videos online. I certainly have sanitation issues, but I also rushed the dry hop and carb on this brew. I have 3 gallon kegs on the way and hope to be able to put some of those on tap, even if its just using a picnic faucet in my beer fridge, so I'll be able to comment on that later, but probably not for a month or so.

orangehero said:

You say you're an engineer, but have you torn the thing down yet? I haven't seen anything about what's actually inside the thing.

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haha, believe it or not, not all engineers want or need to tear everything they purchase apart. I am sometimes one of those people but generally only when equipment breaks (electric heaters, espresso machines, cell phone screens or reflowing solder on chips), but I haven't taken panels off the Zymatic yet.

I did look at the places where I would take the screws off to pull the panels and they're mostly on the back as well as studs with nuts on the base, but haven't opened any yet - I'm worried about messing something up with the rotating fluid arm, on the inside near the step filter, or other such complications. If/when something goes, and the equipment is out of warranty (key factor for me) I will open it up for sure.

Wow -- @Baja_Brewer -- your observations are fantastic, but it sounds like there's a lot of operator error (obviously unintentional) involved. Ditto for the CNET video -- especially as it relates to fermentation.

What I'm hearing -- and reading -- are two big issues:

- folks aren't sanitizing properly
- folks are rushing to rack (bottle instead of keg -- or improperly sanitized kegs)

I'm moving from a 20gallon HERMS setup to this -- so I look forward to scaling down with the pico. But I must say, I'm a little freaked out the initial round of reviews. It's hard to separate operator error from the actual picobrew process.

Sanitation issues -- old, crappy kegs; over-carbonation -- are the standard errors. But it does confuse me a bit here. The picobrew seems to be able to move from fermenter to bottling keg -- which to me (who bottled everything) seems like a dream. So long as your kegs are sanitized (and most likely new) there shouldn't be any sanitation issues.

The CNET video is weird to watch. Obviously, the pros are smirking when they're talking about the pico -- and making the pointless distinction of a "wort machine" versus a "beer machine" -- which is fairly obvious but useless. They speak of a very "buttery" final product -- which, I assume, is diacetyl from the fermentation -- but not the brewing process.

It's all very strange. I'm sensing the unit itself probably works well -- but because folks are rushing, the final products tend to be compromised in various ways. And no one really has a consistent batch of brews to say, "Yeah, this works."

Anyway, we shall see.

Denny's review of the picobrew was unusually positive -- which is what convinced me to pull the plug -- but even Denny didn't have a finished product. He had only the process itself (which he seemed to like).

http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/homebrewing-zymatic-way

BTW -- I ordered two additional kegs from picobrew (kegging is new to me -- I've bottled everything for years) so the kegging (for me, at least) is where I'll have my own learning curve.

Good god. I hated bottling. That's why I gave up brewing for two years. I just couldn't do it anymore. It was something I absolutely dreaded. Cleanup of my eHERMS was nowhere near as annoying as bottling.

BTW -- regarding hop utiliziation.

Even during my eHERMS days, I had issues with hops and hop utilization. I was using pellets, and occasionally used a hopback as well as dry hopping. Strangely enough, the only time I was happy with my hoppy beers was when I used Northern's hopshot concentrate. It worked *really* well. Obviously, it's a bit limited -- and most folks would never use it -- but I wonder if a full dose (5ml?) of hopshot would at least increase the flavor a bit.

My concern with hops back in the day was always using pellets in mesh bags. I always had the sense that no matter when I added, I simply wasn't getting the bitterness I plotted out or expected. I used to think it was because of the mesh bags -- as opposed to just adding the pellets or whole hops to the boil -- but I never got around to experimenting.

Hopshot did change that -- and it improved my last eHERMS beers dramatically (for the better -- at least in terms of bittering.) It might be worth getting a few vials and testing with the pico. I plan to do this as soon as I get the pico.

Finally, a question: I have a Blichman Therminator. In terms of fittings -- what would I need to insert this between the keg and pico? (Just the standard stuff tubing and fittings?) I have a garden hose outlet in my basement where I'll be brewing -- so I'm okay for the water flow. I was just curious about the wort hookup.

I'm going to preface my response by saying this: transitioning to the Picobrew will be like moving from one known process to any other - there will be a learning curve. Expectations are high due to the cost at the homebrew level. I have yet to show myself that I can make a consistent beer with this system, but I am doing my best to outfit my processes (thus this thread) to be controlled and repeatable.

cschweda said:

Wow -- @Baja_Brewer -- your observations are fantastic, but it sounds like there's a lot of operator error (obviously unintentional) involved. Ditto for the CNET video -- especially as it relates to fermentation.

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I don't know about fantastic, I just have a lot of questions. You're right, the things that have gone wrong to this point are largely on me - starting with the fact that I should have cleaned my kegs years ago. I'm going to go through them again with hot, properly diluted PBW and boil the silicone o-rings.

cschweda said:

What I'm hearing -- and reading -- are two big issues:

- folks aren't sanitizing properly
- folks are rushing to rack (bottle instead of keg -- or improperly sanitized kegs)

I'm moving from a 20gallon HERMS setup to this -- so I look forward to scaling down with the pico. But I must say, I'm a little freaked out the initial round of reviews. It's hard to separate operator error from the actual picobrew process.

Sanitation issues -- old, crappy kegs; over-carbonation -- are the standard errors. But it does confuse me a bit here. The picobrew seems to be able to move from fermenter to bottling keg -- which to me (who bottled everything) seems like a dream. So long as your kegs are sanitized (and most likely new) there shouldn't be any sanitation issues.

Click to expand...

I'm also picking up on those issues. A surprising number of picobrewers do not have previous brewing experience - so, much like my errors, improper sanitation tends to be a problem. I rushed these brews too - a week primary was sufficient, but my dry-hop was short and my carbing was quick. In my opinion, the wort coming out of the Picobrew shouldn't be the issue.

There was a bit of trub/yeast in my bottling kegs, but not much, and most of it stayed at the bottom despite the fact that I carried it up a flight of stairs prior to bottle. I think for a static keg in a kegerator, all of that yeast that might be sucked up would be pulled in the first few pints and then be gone. They recommend trimming off 1/2" to 5/8" of the liquid pickup tube (I believe the new ones you purchase from them come pre-shortened) and that seemed to be a good amount.

cschweda said:

BTW -- I ordered two additional kegs from picobrew (kegging is new to me -- I've bottled everything for years) so the kegging (for me, at least) is where I'll have my own learning curve.

Good god. I hated bottling. That's why I gave up brewing for two years. I just couldn't do it anymore. It was something I absolutely dreaded. Cleanup of my eHERMS was nowhere near as annoying as bottling.

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You were bottling batches off a 20 gallon eHERMS? Thats 213 12oz bottles... With 0.5l bottles thats 150 bottles! or 116 Bombers! damn....

cschweda said:

BTW -- regarding hop utiliziation.
...

Hopshot did change that -- and it improved my last eHERMS beers dramatically (for the better -- at least in terms of bittering.) It might be worth getting a few vials and testing with the pico. I plan to do this as soon as I get the pico.

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This is something that would be awesome to test if bittering continues to be lack-luster - and pretty easy. Back to back identical batches with your bittering additions balance to be the same dialed in to be the same, match everything else. I just put in a request for them to add Hopshot to the recipe crafter, but in case they don't they give some formulas here! http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/HopShot_Hop_Extract_Instructions.pdf

cschweda said:

Finally, a question: I have a Blichman Therminator. In terms of fittings -- what would I need to insert this between the keg and pico? (Just the standard stuff tubing and fittings?) I have a garden hose outlet in my basement where I'll be brewing -- so I'm okay for the water flow. I was just curious about the wort hookup.

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For wort out hook-ups you want gas ball-lock posts in the configuration you described (zymatic --> chiller --> keg) - I plan on doing those fittings on both sides of the chiller. Jason1973's post above sort of illustrates what you want. For my chiller (I'm starting from scratch) I'm looking at going from 1/2" MNPT posts, so I'll get a 1/2" FNPT to 1/4" FNPT and then use a 1/4" MNPT to gas post base - there are two typical types of posts (9/16"-18 and 19/32-18) - and the part I listed goes to the 19/32-18.

Then you're going to need a way to jump the chiller-out back to the keg, so fabricate a jumper line with gas ball lock fittings on both ends (something like this), just get the same fitting for the other side. I recommend making sure you make it with threaded disconnects so that you can unscrew the disconnects from the line when you're done cleaning so the line can dry!

Since you're going to be working with kegs, I highly recommend checking out the Scrubmaster 3000 thread that I linked earlier in this thread. The pump is a little pricey, but I built mine for about $100. Doing this would also allow you to a) capture your hottest chilling water and b) use it clean the wort side of the plate chiller with a gas line fitting and anything else when you're done!

Awesome. Thanks for the tip on the Scrubmaster 3000! I've got the pump in my Amazon cart (looks like it went up a bit -- $62 now). I'm going to pull the trigger on it when the Pico is on its way.

cschweda said:

Awesome. Thanks for the tip on the Scrubmaster 3000! I've got the pump in my Amazon cart (looks like it went up a bit -- $62 now). I'm going to pull the trigger on it when the Pico is on its way.

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I purchased the 1/5 HP pump (instead of the $62 1/4 HP) for a slightly lower flow rate and also went with 3/4" PVC piping. After seeing it in action, the 1/5 HP pump should be fine (you'll see I had a question about it in there.)

I'll make a post about it later this week.