Do I have enough diastatic power?

I'm getting ready to make a series of somewhat experimental beers, doing a mini-mash of 2-row (my friendly local brew store doesn't carry 6-row, for some reason) and various starchy root vegetables. Parsnip is the first one I plan to try, because I really like parsnips, but I'm also going to take a shot at making rutabaga beer. Small batches of course, in case the flavour is absolutely vile.

Anyway, if I'm correctly reading the information about the 2-row they have on hand, it has a diastatic power of 220 Lintner. With 1 lb of 2-row and 2 lbs of the roasted and whipped roots, it comes out to an average of 73.3 Lintner; that's enough to convert the starches in the roots, right?

I think so, but I would cook your starchy veggies pretty well before mashing.

estricklin said:

I think so, but I would cook your starchy veggies pretty well before mashing.

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Excellent, thanks My plan is to cut them into chunks first and roast them in the oven, to caramelize the sugars, and then mash them (mash as in mashed potatoes, not mash as in grains).

EDIT: Okay, another source says that the grain only has 120 degrees Lintner of diastatic enzyme, which would bring me down to 40 Lintner per lb. Will that still work?

I have always thought that a pound of two row will convert about a pound of adjunct starches, and 6 row will convert a bit more.

Based on memory I think you are being aggressive with two pounds adjunct starch to one pound two row.

Also not sure roasting will gelatinize the starch like boiling to make for easy conversion by the malt enzymes. The veggies need to be overlooked to the point where the enzymes have away access. Roasting will dry out the starches into chunks perhaps. Idk just spitballing ideas, sorry not very definite.

Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

SquidPope said:

I'm getting ready to make a series of somewhat experimental beers, doing a mini-mash of 2-row (my friendly local brew store doesn't carry 6-row, for some reason) and various starchy root vegetables. Parsnip is the first one I plan to try, because I really like parsnips, but I'm also going to take a shot at making rutabaga beer. Small batches of course, in case the flavour is absolutely vile.

Anyway, if I'm correctly reading the information about the 2-row they have on hand, it has a diastatic power of 220 Lintner. With 1 lb of 2-row and 2 lbs of the roasted and whipped roots, it comes out to an average of 73.3 Lintner; that's enough to convert the starches in the roots, right?

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I would do a search for the gelatinization temperatures for your roots. If you roast them too high you are liable to get sugars that cannot be converter, similar to highly kilned/roasted grains. It is going to be somewhere around boiling or lower for gelatinization of the starch.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

I use this site. It shows 2-row to be 140

helibrewer said:

I would do a search for the gelatinization temperatures for your roots. If you roast them too high you are liable to get sugars that cannot be converter, similar to highly kilned/roasted grains. It is going to be somewhere around boiling or lower for gelatinization of the starch.

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Apparently most vegetable starches gelatinize between 158 and 170 Fahrenheit, which I think is above the temperature at which the diastatic enzymes stop working. But if I diced the roots and boiled them in a separate pot, adding the vegetables and the water to the brew pot after they've gelatinized, that should work Right?

SquidPope said:

Apparently most vegetable starches gelatinize between 158 and 170 Fahrenheit, which I think is above the temperature at which the diastatic enzymes stop working. But if I diced the roots and boiled them in a separate pot, adding the vegetables and the water to the brew pot after they've gelatinized, that should work Right?

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You are on the right track. After you boil them like that, like a cereal mash, the starches will become gelatinized, so you can mash them for starch conversion. Not sure how much of the flavor will carry through after the boil. It's probably akin to pumpkin ale, where the pumpkin flavor is not that detectable, but does add a dimension.

A total mash DP of 30-40 is about the minimum to get good and complete conversion. When you're on the low end, extend the mash to 90 or even 120 minutes, and anticipate a few times of good stirring, and associated heat loss, so you need a way to reheat. Since it's a small mash, that should be easy on the stove top or oven. I'd keep the mash temp high, 154-158°F or so, to keep more of the mouthfeel and the higher sugars. You don't want a thin beer.

Perhaps add some (0.5 - 1 pound) Carapils for the needed dextrins/body. <== That would be for a 5 gallon batch, reduce proportionally.

Then for kicks and more flavor, put some of the diced root veggies in the boil too.

I would also recommend plenty of rice hulls in the lauter tun to sparge that porridge

SquidPope said:

Anyway, if I'm correctly reading the information about the 2-row they have on hand, it has a diastatic power of 220 Lintner. With 1 lb of 2-row and 2 lbs of the roasted and whipped roots, it comes out to an average of 73.3 Lintner; that's enough to convert the starches in the roots, right?

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2# of cooked roots has nowhere near 2# of starch. They are probably 60-80% water, so you are way within conversion %.

I would boil them until they fall apart and add enough cool water, then the 2-row and mash until conversion is complete.

It's just like a sweet potato beer, if you look that up.

Or a Vodka mash. Those guys use like 1 pound of 2-row to convert 8 or 10 pounds of potatoes. It works, it just takes a while.

Magnus314 said:

2# of cooked roots has nowhere near 2# of starch. They are probably 60-80% water, so you are way within conversion %.

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Excellent point Magnus, I was also searching around and found that
good ole boys making whiskey only use several pounds of malt to convert 10 lbs of corn. The corn does have some of it's own enzymes FWIW. It was also stressed that unless you have experience, it is always wise to err on the side of excess enzymes. Naturally, a low enzyme mash will take longer.

I'm finally getting ready to make my first batch of this parsnip ale Now, the hard part: figuring out how to add boiled parsnip into a Beersmith recipe.....

Update on this weird little project: I've got a half-gallon batch fermenting in a growler right now. I boiled 1 lb of parsnip for about an hour, then added 1 lb of 2-row and 1/4 lb of CaraMunich III for a BIAB mash.

The mash was over an hour (I had to go bring SWMBO something at her work) and then I boiled it for 30 minutes with 0.25 oz of Magnum each at the start of the boil and flame-out. I also used IslandLizard's suggestion to put another 1 lb of parsnip in there for the boil for more flavour, and my brew supply dealer's suggestion to add a half-teaspoon of rosemary to complement the parsnip.

Some S-04 Ale yeast, and the airlock is happily bubbling away. The OG is only 1.020; I wanted to err on the side of "not accidentally making a growler bomb" by not adding extract like I normally would.

Now we wait; two weeks for primary, and at least another two in the bottle. Should be interesting....

Another update on this project:

My half-gallon batch of parsnip ale was kind of a success. It was very sessionable, but also a lot hoppier than I intended. Hints of parsnip flavour came through in spite of that, and it's promising enough that I'm making a 2-gallon batch today. Wish me luck!

Good to hear the results. Now you've laid down a base onto which you can graft an improved version. I wouldn't add Magnum as a flameout hop. Use purely for bittering, and it's good at that.

For hop flavor to complement the Parsnip and Rosemary I'm kinda lost right now. I've used Citra plus Saaz in a Rosemary Saison, and that was OK, but nothing special or would make again. The Rosemary left an earthy, funky, kinda moldy flavor/aroma I was not keen about (think Rochefort, blue cheese, which I like), but it was drinkable. Adding juiced cucumber to half of that Saison was as much a disaster as an improvement.

Did you like the Rosemary in your beer? Did it do anything to complement the parsnip?

If you have some pepper corns or Grains of Paradise, they may work nicely with the parsnip. 2.5 grams coarsely crushed and added to the boil at 5 minutes were just detectable. Boiling for 15 would be fine too, although I would use an extended "spice/hop/parsnip stand" for 20-30 minutes after flameout at around 190°F. Then chill down all the way.

Keep us posted.

Honestly, I couldn't taste the rosemary at all. I'm trying a different method this time; it's actually bubbling happily on my stove right now.

I started by peeling grating and boiling 1.25 lbs of parsnip, in a separate pot. I strained the water into my brew pot, keeping the boiled parsnip solids (with the starches hopefully gelatinized) to add to my brew bag.

Using the parsnip water as roughly half of my strike water, I mashed the boiled parsnip with 0.75 lbs of 2-row and 0.5 lbs of grated sweet potato; the 2-row should have been able to convert the parsnip alone, but I added the sweet potato for an extra bit of enzyme without adding more barley.

Oddly enough, after a 90-minute mash (to be safe) the wort was a pale pink. I added 0.5 lbs of dry extract for gravity, then 0.25 oz Nugget for bittering after the hot break. Half a Whirlfloc tablet will go in soon, then 0.1 oz of Saphir (leftover from a different recipe) at flameout. Already, the wort looks like a more normal brown.

UPDATE: This is very strange. I got an OG of 1.020 again, same as with my half-gallon batch. This is consistent with what Beersmith thought I'd get, with only the 2-row and extract entered as grains and the parsnip entered as a non-fermenting Misc ingredient. And yet, when I was planning this out, every source I found said that parsnips have the right kind of starch to be fermented. Oh well; it was nicely sessionable last time, and it will be again RDWHAHB

Another update on this recipe!

I brought the latest batch to a Bottle Swap at my friendly local homebrew store, and it was actually a big hit! The beer came out very pale, very sessionable again at 2%, and pleasantly hoppy. The parsnip contributes a crisp and somewhat sweet/spicey finish which was really nice. Despite being an ale, it has the kind of crispness I expect in a lager.

Next experiment: Turnip beer!