Wort chiller 101

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

Having both read and discussed with the fellas at LHBS about all the upside of a wort chiller, I was all set to get copper tubing and parts at my local hardware store when at the last minute I decide to reference The Complete Joy of Home Brewing for suggestions on length of tubing. It is then that I realized; I dont even know how this wonderful contraption is really used. Having never seen one in action, I have to ask:

Ive read and been told you can drop the wort temperature X degrees in Y minutes by using a wort chiller. But I cant get my head around this. As I understand it, you flow the wort through the tubing itself, with the coil immersed in an ice bath solution. If using a garden hose configuration, the counter flow will chill the wort. It would seem to me that giving a time element (Y minutes) is misleading: Doesnt it really all depend on how long it takes to flow the wort through the coil? And if it is in minutes, then do you then flow the wort a 2nd or 3rd time? HELP!

Am I way off base on this? Can anyone breakdown in simple terms how the chiller is used so I can get my arse back to ACE and just buy the parts and build one? My second ever batch took 2 hours to cool enough (without a chiller obviously) to safely add the yeast. I dont want to do that again and want to mix my third beer batch this weekend.

aekdbbop · Jan 5, 2007

well.. there are two different types of wort chillers, immersion chillers (which are placed within the wort, and cool water is run through the copper, extracting heat from the wort), and counter flow chillers (i could be wrong, but i think the wort is pumped through the chiller one way, and a larger tube containing cool water is pumped the other way).

here is a more in depth example:
http://www.strandbrewers.org/techinfo/chillers.htm

Immersion chillers are going to be less expensive, and made of all copper, where counterflows are going to look somewhat like a garden hose.

you could very easily make your own wort chiller...: http://www.allaboutbeer.com/homebrew/equip/chiller.html

olllllo · Jan 5, 2007

It doesn't get anymore 101 than this.

http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixC.html

My recommendation is to make (or buy) an immersion chiller first, because it's easier to make and operate. This time of year your groundwater is cold enough to pull off an immersion by tself.

Come summer your groundwater in TX will be in the 80's and you may then look at building or buying a CFC or a second immersion chiller.

You will need to use an immersion chiller to pre-chill your water in the summer in TX.

-- a desert dweller

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

Regarding high temp tap water. If copper prices stay high, I recommend pumping icewater through your immersion chiller instead of using a prechiller. The idea here being that you can probably secure a cheap submersible pump for less than the price of copper for a prechiller. If not, then don't.

Pumping water that is already down in the 20-30dF area into your immersion chiller works a heck of a lot better than running 80dF tap water through a coil that is submerged in 20-30dF tap water. The output of the prechiller will always be somethere between 40-60 degrees in that case depending on your flow rate and how much you stir your prechiller icewater.

IOW, the pump method is a LOT easier and efficient.

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

aekdbbop said:
...immersion chillers (which are placed within the wort, and cool water is run through the copper, extracting heat from the wort)...

you know, this is how I originally thought an immersion system worked. Talk about getting way off base :drunk:

thanks!

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

olllllo said:
It doesn't get anymore 101 than this.

http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixC.html

no, it doesn't. Thanks for the link

Evan! · Jan 5, 2007

Efficient, surely. Easier? Can't see how. Hooking the immersion chiller up to your hose bib is easy as pie. OTOH, finding a pump that can feed icewater into said chiller is not as easy. You'd have to get something like the $60 immersable sump pump that I use to drain out my basement when it floods. It hooks up to a standard hose, meaning you could, in theory, fill a bucket with icewater, hook the immersion chiller up to the sump pump, then submerse the pump in the icewater. But that's not exactly "easy"...at least, not as easy as just hooking it up to your hose bib.

The easier method would be a hybrid icebath/immersion. Run tap water through the chiller AND set the kettle into an icebath.

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

Bobby_M said:
[The idea here being that you can probably secure a cheap submersible pump for less than the price of copper for a prechiller. ]

I like this idea. having never seen a submersion pump, where would be the first place to go to research or get one?

olllllo · Jan 5, 2007

Bobby_M said:
Regarding high temp tap water. If copper prices stay high, I recommend pumping icewater through your immersion chiller instead of using a prechiller. The idea here being that you can probably secure a cheap submersible pump for less than the price of copper for a prechiller. If not, then don't.

Pumping water that is already down in the 20-30dF area into your immersion chiller works a heck of a lot better than running 80dF tap water through a coil that is submerged in 20-30dF tap water. The output of the prechiller will always be somethere between 40-60 degrees in that case depending on your flow rate and how much you stir your prechiller icewater.

IOW, the pump method is a LOT easier and efficient.

Yep, that'll do the trick too. Just wanted to stress that if he goes the IC route, it can be repurposed.

olllllo · Jan 5, 2007

If you do go the CFC Route, here is the Cheyco Brand™ CFC

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9395

olllllo · Jan 5, 2007

I'm not trying to make this more complicated g0dolphins but if others are following the thread...

I also noticed that Austin has a sale that puts Shirron Plate chillers in the $85 range. That's real close to a decision making pont for alot of folks.

ETA: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=10572 Free Shipping.

The plate chiller works best with a ball valve on you pot and some other re-thinkables in your set-up or process.

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

regarding submersion pumps (and hoping others someday will find this thread useful). Would something like this work?

Little Giant PE-2H 300 GPH Epoxy Encapsulated Statuary Fountain Pump, 6' Power Cord # 1/4" MNPT Discharge (accepts 1/2" I.D. tubing (518400) - $68.31 at www.plumbersurplus.com

Description: Small submersible epoxy encapsulated pump for commercial, industrial and home use. Applications include statuary fountains, water displays, air conditioners, machine tool coolants, and many other applications where liquid must be transferred or recirculated. This compact 300 GPH pump features a 1/4" MNPT discharge, 12.2' shut-off capability, screened inlet and a 6' power cord.

Little Giant PE-2H 300 GPH Epoxy Encapsulated Statuary Fountain Pump, 6' Power Cord # 1/4" MNPT Discharge (accepts 1/2" I.D. tubing (518400) Features:
12.2' maximum lift
47 watts
1/4" MNPT discharge
Thermal overload protection
For submersible use only

Little Giant PE-2H 300 GPH Epoxy Encapsulated Statuary Fountain Pump, 6' Power Cord # 1/4" MNPT Discharge (accepts 1/2" I.D. tubing (518400) Specifications:
Flow: 300 GPH @ 1 Foot of Head
Cord Length: 6'
Shut Off: 12.2
Voltage: 115
Hertz: 60
Amps: 0.8
Watts: 47
Weight: 4.17 lbs.
Height: 4.2"
Width: 2.8"
Length: 4.8"

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

Yup, there are a ton of submersible pumps you can use. I'd imagine anything from 300-700 GPH at 1foot head would be fine. They're mostly used for ponds and aquarium setups and they can be had for cheap if you find something used.

Evan,

I was actually comparing the difference between using a prechiller and using a pump. In both setups you have a hosebib connection for tap, a container full of icewater and your standard immersion chiller in your wort. The only real difference is you dump your tap hose into your icewater container and then force that through your immersion chiller. This is literally as simple as replacing a coil of copper with a pump. I actually don't see it as any easier or harder and if you can find a pump for the same price or less than a prechiller, it is definitely better.

By the way, no way would you need the flow rate of a sump pump. The output on mine is 1-1/2" and the flow rate is like 2800 GPH. My current IC uses only 20 gallons to cool a batch and that's with 60dF tap water.

Here's one for $35 shipped: http://cgi.ebay.com/Little-Giant-Pu...0QQihZ009QQcategoryZ42132QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

javedian · Jan 5, 2007

That pump is probably overkill, but will definately get the job done. Look for one with about 20W power consumption, should cost $20-30. Aquarium pumps would work fine. Here is a link to one that is about the same capacity and 1/3 the price. I have had two pumps from this company working in my aquarium for 2 years solid now. They used to have some smaller ones, but inventory changes. Powerheads are more difficult to use, as they don't come with the fittings to attach hoses to the output side, which would be needed.

http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=290

JimiGibbs · Jan 5, 2007

I'm no expert but something about the drawing in Palmer's book has never looked right to me .... Don't see a way for the water to get from the "Hose In Piece" to the "Garden Hose". I know it is just a simple drawing but I have always wondered about it. Is it just me?????

user 4295 · Jan 5, 2007

I picked up a Flotec 1/6 hp submersible pump from home depot for $59. It comes with a hose adapter. $4 for a 5 gallon bucket. I already had two 6' lengths of 3/4" garden hose, but if you needed those they are about $6 each, and then the cost of the ice, which as you know, is pretty cheap.

I would recommend getting a pre-made immersion chiller from one of the online vendors, such as Northern Brewer or B3. You won't save anything right now making one yourself, especially if you count your time as being worth something. Get one that has hose fittings.

The process could not be easier. Use your tap water to get your wort down to under 100˚F, then disconnect your tap water hose from the chiller. Connect one hose to the discharge of the pump, drop the pump into the ice water, and connect the discharge hose to the input of the chiller. Now take the output hose from the chiller and just put into the ice water bucket. Now turn on the pump and allow the ice water to recirculate until you hit your desired yeast pitching temperature. Done.

John

Cheesefood · Jan 5, 2007

Ya know, I can't remember ONCE when my hosewater was above 60º. As a kid, doing any sort of water activity in the summer time meant getting hit with freezing water. (Notice I didn't say "watersports", because there are some sick SOBs here.)

the_bird · Jan 5, 2007

Cheesefood said:
(Notice I didn't say "watersports", because there are some sick SOBs here.)

"Wow, that kettle is so black, it's like, how much more black could it be?, and the answer is, NONE, none more black...."

- Pot

.....

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

I went to Home Depot today at lunch and grabbed a 20 length of pre-coiled 3/8 OD refrigeration grade copper (yikes! It was expensive) tubing. Then I plan to go by Petco on the way home as their website lists a Hagen AquaClear water pump that rates @ 400GPM. with a litle Shaping for the tubing, and using extra racking hosing I already have on hand and Im hoping Ill have at least the beginnings of an immersion chiller by tomorrow morning.

Ill take a snap shot and post it here if it works.

Thanks to all the brew masters for their infinite wisdom :mug:

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

JimiGibbs said:
I'm no expert but something about the drawing in Palmer's book has never looked right to me .... Don't see a way for the water to get from the "Hose In Piece" to the "Garden Hose". I know it is just a simple drawing but I have always wondered about it. Is it just me?????
View attachment 661

Sure there is. The space on the right hand side of the Tee between the inside coil of copper and the 1/2" copper nipple that the garden hose is clamped to. By the way, it's a lot better to use a 1/2 to 1/4" reducer than a drilled out end cap for the left side.

Here's mine:

JimiGibbs · Jan 5, 2007

Bobby_M said:
Sure there is. The space on the right hand side of the Tee between the inside coil of copper and the 1/2" copper nipple that the garden hose is clamped to. By the way, it's a lot better to use a 1/2 to 1/4" reducer than a drilled out end cap for the left side.

But I don't think that's what the drawing is showing ... It doesn't show the hose going all the way to the "T". Or maybe I'm just reading the drawing wrong ... By the way, nice chiller.

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

Basically you insert a short piece of 1/2" pipe into each slip joint on the Tee and solder them in. On the coiled hose side, you're clamping the hose to this 1/2" copper, not directly to the tee. The reason being, the ID of garden hose is 5/8" and so is the OD of 1/2" copper pipe. The OD of the Tee is a bit too large to get the hose on easily although I think you might be able to stretch it just enough. Either way, using the nipple gives you more to clamp to.

Cheesefood · Jan 5, 2007

"Wow, that kettle is so black, it's like, how much more black could it be?, and the answer is, NONE, none more black...."

It's like a pastel black.

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

g0dolphins said:
I went to Home Depot today at lunch and grabbed a 20 length of pre-coiled 3/8 OD refrigeration grade copper (yikes! It was expensive) tubing. Then I plan to go by Petco on the way home as their website lists a Hagen AquaClear water pump that rates @ 400GPM. with a litle Shaping for the tubing, and using extra racking hosing I already have on hand and Im hoping Ill have at least the beginnings of an immersion chiller by tomorrow morning.

Ill take a snap shot and post it here if it works.

Thanks to all the brew masters for their infinite wisdom

Have you checked your tap temperature this time of year? I know you're in TX but you probably could have gotten away with tap until summer. Ah, no harm in cooling faster anyway!

g0dolphins · Jan 5, 2007

Bobby_M said:
Have you checked your tap temperature this time of year? I know you're in TX but you probably could have gotten away with tap until summer. Ah, no harm in cooling faster anyway!

Actually, I was washing bottles last night (first step for me. Second step is the sanitation /sterilization soak and dish washer cycle), and the tap water, after @ 3 minutes was DAMN COLD! At any rate, I've decided to create a system that will cycle the 'bath' itself, and not rely upon the tap (SWMBO bought a fancy faucet with a FUBARed faucet head at Home Expo so that isn't an option to begin with).

I plan to create a bath, either adding ice to it or not, and simply recirculate the bath water, adding ice/cold water as necessary. The way I see it, depending on the submersion pump, an adapter for the plastic hose going from the chiller to the pump will be the only unknown.

Bobby_M · Jan 5, 2007

Except for the fact that your tap will be way colder than the output of your immersion chiller. If you recirculate, your ice will be melted well before your wort gets cold.

If It were me, I'd fill a container with ice and have the sink tap pouring into it. Put the pump in there. Then take the output of the chiller (hot water) and let it drain into the sink drain. The whole point of pumping is to get the coldest possible water into the chiller. That is, if your tap is like 60, it will hit the ice and get to about 35-40 by the time the pump takes it into the chiller. You should get to ale temps in about 5 minutes and lager in 15. IMHO, you actually should run the chiller will tap temp water for the first 2-3 minutes then dump your ice into the resevior. This will waste less ice.

pendries · Jan 10, 2007

I recently built a different type of chiller, I am using a 40 qt aluminum brew pot. I took an old water conditioner salt resevoir and cut it down. I plumbed my garden hose into the bottom with a bulkhead. I inserted an overflow tube several inches from the top. I filled my brewpot with 5 gallons of water and placed into tank. I turned the water on and water filled the tank. because the brewpot was not full it actually floated. I have handles that prevent it from tipping by resting just above tank sides. I have a brass valve on the incoming side that I adjusted so the overflow can accomodate the volume of water. After brewing I place the brewpot into nearly empty tank and turn the water spigot on full bore. I directed the overflow into the yard. Worked great. Very little investment. I knew I was saving that stuff for something!

Bobby_M · Jan 10, 2007

Of course a regular immersion chiller would be a lot faster due to the increased surface area but if your chill time suits you, great!

Desert_Sky · Jan 11, 2007

I gotta get these pics posted. On my last batch I wanted to see how fast I could chill. SO I have my immersion chiller for my keggle sitting in my 5 gallon batch. Looks pretty damn funny

Bobby_M · Jan 11, 2007

I posted this on another thread and thought you might find it useful:

"Since suggesting to pump the icewater directly into the IC, I've actually tried this. I ran my IC with 60dF tap water for exactly 5 minutes. This took 5gals of wort to 90dF. I then converted over to a 2 gal bucket of icewater and very small pump (temporarily removed from my tile wet saw). It took exactly 2 minutes to empty the water from the bucket. I thought that I could top up this icewater bucket with tap water and do it again or just keep it trickling in to keep the level above the pump. Guess what? No need. The wort was 72dF.

Note: Prior to starting my brew, I emptied my icemaker hopper into a 2 gal bucket (only filled it half way), topped it off with tap water, and put the whole thing in my fridge.

The IC is 40' of 3/8" OD copper and I whirlpooled the kettle twice, once before starting the tap flow and once before running the pump."

Since you're paying for ice, it's probably best to precool the water that you mix in by putting some in your freezer or fridge for a while. Stinks to throw 80dF tap water in there to waste the cooling power of the ice before it even hits the wort. You also don't want a pump that is too fast, you want the very cold water to have a chance to extract heat while in your chiller.

In any case, I was really impressed that it only took about a gallon and a half of 33dF water through the chiller to get 5 gallons from 90 to 70dF. If I had to keep chilling, it would be nice to take more chilled water out of the fridge and simply pour it over your ice (fridge water is about 40dF give or take, and not 80dF like your tap). I can't imagine needed much more than 3-4 gallons of cold water unless your pump is way oversized.

g0dolphins · Jan 11, 2007

Update: I just bought the last piece of plastic tubing I need to complete the IC setup (it's going to look like something from Frankenstein's lab when completed). When it's all said and done, there will be 3 different sized hoses to go from the copper of the IC to the output side of the water pump, and 15/16" inside dia. hose for the input side of the water pump. I like the idea of keeping fridge temp water on hand to add to the bath mixture. Also, in 3 days time our ice maker fills the ice cube bin, and that's about a 1 -1/2 gallons of ice to work with.

I also like the idea of using the 60 +/- degree tap water as an initial temperature break.

My home brew club has our first brew day for 2007 this Saturday, so I might try to assemble the IC and take it there for review/comments.

Scorching Sugar · Jan 11, 2007

Made an immersion wort chiller out of 5/8 inch copper tubing left in my garage by a previous occupant. Left 50 feet so the first 25 was for the wort chiller and the second 25 was for the prechiller. Used two bags of ice from Smart and final and cooled from 212 down to 70 in 6:02. :rockin:

kidoduck · Jan 15, 2009

I know this Immersion Cooler info is an old thread, but I wonder if you could tell me, Why bother starting with tap water if you have a bucket and submersible pump? Why not just recirculate ice water from the start? It seems you could keep an extra bag of ice on hand if it starts to melt(might need to start with an oversize bucket).

SpanishCastleAle · Jan 15, 2009

kidoduck,
It's because there is sooooo much heat to remove at the start and since there is such a big temperature difference between the hot wort and regular tap water...regular tap water will still remove the heat very effectively. But once you get that large 'surge' of heat out at the start, then the heat transfer rate starts to go down so in order to remove the heat quickly you need to reduce the temp of the chill water. That big surge of heat removed at the beginning would also probably melt your ice.

EDIT: I dunno how hot the water coming out of the IC would be if you used ice water in at the beginning...but if it's too hot you could dump the IC chill water outlet and refill the reservoir with tap...at least that way your not dumping hot/warm water back into the reservoir.

Also might as well add this: Bobby said that you don't want to pump too fast but if your 'stuck' with a pump that's too fast you can just add a bypass that dumps right back into the reservoir (basically a tee at the pump outlet...one line to the IC and the other is the bypass that dumps back...a couple of valves and you can throttle the flow however you like...just try not to deadhead the pump outlet).

Jun · Jan 15, 2009

A week or so ago I built an IC using a submersible pump
that I bought at pet supply store for $24, it is only 35GPH, however that
seams to be perfect speed for this purpose.

Bobby_M · Jan 15, 2009

At a moderate flow rate, and assuming you're stirring the wort, the output water is going to be up in the mid to high 100's. In fact, I'd be prone to running the pump with just tap water in the basin for the first 3-5 minutes, collect the output water in a bucket to save for cleanup later, THEN dump the ice in and redirect the output flow back into the ice basin. The thing is, ice is expensive and there's no reason to dump 160F water back into it when you have access to tap water (even if it's warm at 85F).

I'll also add that this icewater thing is completely moot for those in the northern states in the winter. My freakin tap water is 47F right now. I wouldn't spend $5 in ice to cut my chill time by 1 minute.

SpanishCastleAle · Jan 15, 2009

My freakin tap water is 47F right now.

Mine is pretty warm-ish here in Florida...I didn't measure it but I ran some tap water on the towel wrapped around my glass carboy yesterday (swamp method fermentation...which you guys up north probably rarely have to do?) and the airlock bubble rate went up...my house is @ ~70 degrees F so it would appear my tap water is >70 degrees F. But I guess each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Boby,
What do you think of using ice water from the get go but run the IC CW outlet to another bucket (for later cleanup) and replenishing the CW reservoir with tap water...that way you're not putting hot water back into the CW reservoir?

Bobby_M · Jan 15, 2009

It would be great if you run it slow enough that the water coming out is hot. If you run it too fast (or your chiller length is short), the water will come out cold and the delta is wasted. If you find that you often run out of ice too soon, you can go back to my suggestion of using straight tap water for the first few minutes. The delta between 210F wort and even 90F tap water is so great that you get great chilling at first. The ice is handy when the wort is approaching 100F and delta gets lower and lower. Chilling slows down big time there.

Hugh_Jass · Jan 15, 2009

Bobby,
So applying that logic to a recirculating pump IC, use two separate water reservoirs; one ice bath and one closer to actual tap temp using the tap one first, followed by the ice bath?
sound right?

Bobby_M · Jan 15, 2009

I could go two ways on that. You can run your garden hose/tap water directly into the chiller for a few minutes, then swap over to the pump as the source. That way your icewater is sitting there, already 32F.

The other option is to hook the chiller to the pump from the start, fill your basin with tap water, start pumping for 3 minutes then dump the ice into the remaining water. It will take a little while for the ice to cool the water, but we're talking about 3 minutes give or take and you wouldn't have to mesh with the connections.

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