Question about IBU and Bitterness Ratio (IBU/SG).

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MonkeyWrench

MonkeyWrench

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So I'm not a huge fan of bitter beers...ya, I know, one of the few here. Yesterday I was playing with Beer Smith and was noticing the difference between IBU and IBU/SG (bitterness ratio). SWMBO and I love the Amber I've made (modified Mac & Jack's clone) and it comes out to be 38.4 IBU and .719 IBU/SG with an OG of 1.053.

Now, I've steered away from IPA's because I usually don't like how bitter they are, however, using the guidelines within Beer Smith I've found that I can make an IPA, with OG of 1.075 and IBU of 53.1 and have a .712 IBU/SG. Yes, OG is on the upper end of the style spectrum (1.056-1.075), and the IBUs are mid to lower (40-70), but IBU/SG is actually a little lower than the Amber we love.

Would this still be considered an IPA?

To clarify, the bitterness ratio would be perceived bitterness, right?

If so, is the bitterness ratio actually more important than the IBU?

I'm only 6 brews in so far and only extract (accept one BIAB flub up that got dumped).

Cheers!
Steve
 
I am no expert, so this is probably wrong, at least in part. BUT. I thinkseveral things come into play when looking at the BU:GU ratio. First, I do think the ratio is good for giving you a sense of how balanced your beer will be, or if it will tip to malty or hoppy. The other side of the ratio, though, is that different styles play on the taste buds differently. An Amber might have more sweetness to it because of the crystal malts. This sweetness would balance out the bitterness better than an IPA might since IPAs are generally simplier grain bills.

Also, another thing i've started to notice is that how the hops are used makes a big difference. I brewed Jamil's Evil Twin yesterday. On paper it shouldn't be very hoppy since it only comes it at around 23 IBUs (rager) and has an OG of 1.066. What makes this beer come off as hoppy is that all of the hop additions were late in the boil (<20 minuets left). This should allow for a very smooth bitterness with lots of hop flavor and aroma. Lots of brewers are also coming around to the idea that first wort hopping gives a smoother bitterness than straight 60 minute additions. I guess what i am saying is that just because it has a lot of hops, doesn't mean its going to be a bad bitter.
 
Hoppus: Google the girls of the Tilted Kilt for even more like her! :mug:

Donner: You have a good point on ingredient and the maltiness (is that a word?) of an amber compared to a pale. I was curious how the ratio really was calculated and if it took into consideration ingredients. If I change malt quantity, both IBU and Bitterness Ratio change. However, if I go from 4lbs Pilsen & 4lbs Amber to 6lbs Light & 2lbs Amber (all DME) you get almost the same color, but IBU and bitterness ratio don't change, so the calculator is not taking into consideration the ingredients, but the former would probably not taste as bitter because of the extra 2lbs of amber malt compared to the latter. I hadn't really thought of that. Guess I'll have to brew it up and try it. :)

I wonder if there is a rule of thumb with this ratio. Below 1.0 is malty and above is bitter???

I do like hop flavor and aroma. The amber I make has quite a bit of late addition hops and is also dry hopped for a week before bottling. It's almost to good. It was ready on Dec 13th and we only had a 6 pack left on the 30th (42 beers down). Though it wasn't just my wife and I drinking it.
 
The higher the ratio the more bitter the beer. I can't remember exactly, but i think the ratio goes to around 1.20 or something.

The ratio is simply the IBUs (23) and gravity points (1.066, say) expressed as a ratio 23:66 or .36. Keep in mind, the IBUs change based on hop utilization, which is a product of gravity (hops don't do well when boiled in only water). When you start with 8 lbs of DME, in general and combination of types of extract (provided they all have the same gravity contribution) will equal the same number of gravity points possible.
 
Donner said:
Keep in mind, the IBUs change based on hop utilization, which is a product of gravity (hops don't do well when boiled in only water).
Click to expand...

I think you're thinking of marijuana. Hops do better in less sugar if I recall correctly.

which is why people make hop tea to bitter beers and late extract addition on LME/DME
 
I think both bitterness and BU:GU ratio matter. I usually watch my IBUs, and also reference this chart, (which if you think about it, covers a huge range of BU:GUs). Basically, to have a "balanced beer", you want to line along a certain slope of this graph, corresponding to a constant BU:GU. To have a hoppier IPA, you want to be more in the green...

This doesn't answer your question much, but hopefully the graph is helpful :)

wOnk0.jpg
 
elmetal said:
I think you're thinking of marijuana. Hops do better in less sugar if I recall correctly.

which is why people make hop tea to bitter beers and late extract addition on LME/DME
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Hops do do better in less sugar, hence why a full boil will require less hops than a partial boil. At least as far as utilization goes.

I was confusing two things, though. Some concerns still exist for boiling hops in water alone as far as extracting grassy flavors and such. A different issue from what the OP asked, though.

i was merely trying to point out that the IBUs of a beer will change in relation to the gravity because of utilization.
 
Certainly give the IPA a try. Ultimately, what determines whether something is "in style" is the perception of the drinker. You don't drink numbers, recipes, or raw ingredients. You drink beer.

The OG/IBU ratio is useful for designing recipes, but it is not any more magic than anything else. Other variables (such as when and how you use the hops, boiling technique, water profile, yeast and fermentation practice, other grains, AA makeup of the hops you use, and mashing) also will affect the perceived bitterness of your beer. Play around, have fun, and enjoy!


TL
 
does anyone know where that chart came from? I like it and have seen it many times posted, but never see the orgin of it.
 
shortyjacobs said:
This doesn't answer your question much, but hopefully the graph is helpful :)

wOnk0.jpg
Click to expand...

Just stumbled on this post......Wow!! This makes things so clear to me (must be a visual learner :cross:. I do mostly extract brewing, but really enjoy designing recipes. My last attempt at an American IPA came out (almost) undrinkable it was so bitter, even though Beersmith rated the IBU at 65(well within what I like). I've been all over the site reading posts that are far more technical than I really want to understand at this point about bitterness ratios, grain bills etc etc.

I hope it's OK with you, I have printed this graphic, am going to laminate it, and stick it on the wall where I brew. Thank you!
 
sutepan said:
My last attempt at an American IPA came out (almost) undrinkable it was so bitter, even though Beersmith rated the IBU at 65(well within what I like). I've been all over the site reading posts that are far more technical than I really want to understand at this point about bitterness ratios, grain bills etc etc.
Click to expand...

So, I've also had some IPAs that tasted like ground aspirin, and others that were quite balanced with a ton of hop flavor and aroma (in other words, great). IBUs are a useful tool, but the value can often be misleading.

I just made up two test batches in BeerSmith, with the same grain bill and OG (only U.S. 2-Row at 1.065), and the same hop type and amount (Cascade, 6% AA; I chose that one because BeerSmith lists it as both a bittering and aroma hop). For my equipment setup, adding 4 oz of Cascade at 60 min to a wort of 1.065 gives me 57.1 IBUs (IBU:OG ratio = 0.873). According to the chart posted in previous posts, I'd be just past extra hoppy. In this example though, with no specialty grains, this beer might taste pretty bitter.

In the other test batch, adding 4 oz of Cascade hops at 10 min. to a wort of 1.065 gives me 20.7 IBUs (IBU:OG ratio = 0.316). This time the chart puts the beer at extra malty. If I want to get up to ~55 IBUs, I need to add 10.75 oz of the 6%AA Cascade.

I imagine the second test batch at 55 IBUs might taste something like eating a hop leaf (or a whole cone), but it might be great. I know this is an extreme example, i.e. most IPAs have more than just 2-Row in them, most do a 60 min. and 0-20 min. additions, etc....

I was just thinking about IBUs today, and how I wish they told a more complete story. I guess my point is that the IBU value, and the IBU:OG ratio, don't always pinpoint the "hoppiness" of a beer. To me, hoppiness means hop flavor and aroma (floral, citrus, minty, cat-piss... I mean pine, etc.), not the amount of bitterness in a beer.

Sorry for the rambling post...
 
forcenc said:
So, I've also had some IPAs that tasted like ground aspirin, and others that were quite balanced with a ton of hop flavor and aroma (in other words, great). IBUs are a useful tool, but the value can often be misleading.

I just made up two test batches in BeerSmith, with the same grain bill and OG (only U.S. 2-Row at 1.065), and the same hop type and amount (Cascade, 6% AA; I chose that one because BeerSmith lists it as both a bittering and aroma hop). For my equipment setup, adding 4 oz of Cascade at 60 min to a wort of 1.065 gives me 57.1 IBUs (IBU:OG ratio = 0.873). According to the chart posted in previous posts, I'd be just past extra hoppy. In this example though, with no specialty grains, this beer might taste pretty bitter.

In the other test batch, adding 4 oz of Cascade hops at 10 min. to a wort of 1.065 gives me 20.7 IBUs (IBU:OG ratio = 0.316). This time the chart puts the beer at extra malty. If I want to get up to ~55 IBUs, I need to add 10.75 oz of the 6%AA Cascade.

I imagine the second test batch at 55 IBUs might taste something like eating a hop leaf (or a whole cone), but it might be great. I know this is an extreme example, i.e. most IPAs have more than just 2-Row in them, most do a 60 min. and 0-20 min. additions, etc....

I was just thinking about IBUs today, and how I wish they told a more complete story. I guess my point is that the IBU value, and the IBU:OG ratio, don't always pinpoint the "happiness" of a beer. To me, hoppiness means hop flavor and aroma (floral, citrus, minty, cat-piss... I mean pine, etc.), not the amount of bitterness in a beer.

Sorry for the rambling post...
Click to expand...
Keep us posted on how your test comes out
 

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