I have been using a water heater hose for my MT screen and I've been getting around 60% with batch sparging. I used the same screen yesterday on two 6 gallon brews and incorporated the Fly sparging method and walked away with 67% on one and 70% on the other. Now I'm wondering if I get a false bottom would I really get better efficiency. Now the grain is crushed by my LHBS and according to everyone in the area they seem to be really good with their crush. If you have used a system similar to mine, with the screen type filter, and you switched to a false bottom what kind of improvements have you seen?
false bottoms, are they as good as people say?
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douglasbarbin
Well-Known Member
Changing from the screen to a false bottom won't change your efficiency. Crushing finer will.
If you are only getting 60%, either there is something not optimum in your equipment or your process or your LHBS crush is NOT good.
Fly sparging with a false bottom should improve things some but there seems to be something else you will need to track down.
I use a water heater braid and have never gotten anything that low. I actually get about 70%
Fly sparging with a false bottom should improve things some but there seems to be something else you will need to track down.
I use a water heater braid and have never gotten anything that low. I actually get about 70%
Powercat
Well-Known Member
I have also switched from a false bottom to a bag and the clean up is a lot easier and simpler. Simple is better.
A false bottom is definitely better at lauter efficiency than a braid or bazooka would be when fly sparging.
MindenMan
Well-Known Member
I use a 5 gallon bucket with a second drilled 5 gallon bucket bottom, and it rests just above my spigot. To help my cleanup and vorlauf, I use a paint strainer bag to hold the grain when I sparge. I do a modified AG/BIAB method to keep the amount of liquid and/or grain weight to be lifted to a minimum. I average 75-76% efficiency so I adjust the recipes I am using to get the O.G.s I want at 75%
A 10 gallon brewer here. A _good_ false bottom with a matching grind (which may take a few batches to figure out) will get you a great efficiency (85%+) but more important is a great consistency. It makes creating and predicting new recipes much easier. If you only have a few batches under your belt then maybe consistency and predictability aren't really important to you at this stage, just good beer is, and that is just fine, as long as you enjoy what you brew. If your efficiency is a bit low, there are a lot of tweaks that can be made and honestly, at our scale, grain is cheap. You have to add a lot of extra pounds of grain over a lot of batches to hit the cost of most FBs.
Personally I am using one of Jaybirds FBs and I can't say enough of how great he and his folks are to deal with, the quality of the build and my results. YMMV but great brewing to ya'!
Personally I am using one of Jaybirds FBs and I can't say enough of how great he and his folks are to deal with, the quality of the build and my results. YMMV but great brewing to ya'!
douglasbarbin
Well-Known Member
Well, I'll be damned. You would definitely know better than I would, so it looks like I was wrong.
JosephN
Well-Known Member
Alright, thanks for all the responses. I guess now my question is, is my Mash Efficiency % accurate or not? I'm going off of Brewer's Friend recipe calculator and they are calling the % given Brewhouse Efficiency. I know from previous articles that mash and brewhouse efficiency are two totally different things.
I googled Mash Efficiency calculator and they brought me to Brewer's Friend, which they still called it Brewhouse Efficiency Calculator. It gave me the option to type in my grain bill and pre boil gravity and the wort volume collected and it gave me a %. It also showed what gravity I should have had at 75% and also 100%. If this calculator was correct, using PPG, then my true Mash Efficiency is around 74-76% from the two batches I made this weekend.
Does this sound right,
I googled Mash Efficiency calculator and they brought me to Brewer's Friend, which they still called it Brewhouse Efficiency Calculator. It gave me the option to type in my grain bill and pre boil gravity and the wort volume collected and it gave me a %. It also showed what gravity I should have had at 75% and also 100%. If this calculator was correct, using PPG, then my true Mash Efficiency is around 74-76% from the two batches I made this weekend.
Does this sound right,
MonkeyBot
Well-Known Member
If you can find all the right information, calculating mash efficiency is relatively easy. First you need to find the potential maximum amount of sugar a grain can provide. I've gotten mine from Beersmith so I'm not sure where else to get the information. Beersmith gives it in the form of specific gravity per lb or something like that. For example it says US 2-row has a potential of 1.036 SG.
Multiply the points of specific gravity by the number of pounds of grain you have. Using the US 2-row from above, if your grain bill was 10lbs of US 2-row your potential gravity points would be:
36 (potential) x 10 (lbs of grain) = 360 (potential sugar)
If you have multiple grain types, just do this calculation for each grain and add them up. This gives a number of "points" of potential sugar to be extracted from the grain.
You then get the pre-boil gravity after mashing and multiply by the number of gallons of wort you drained. This gives you the actual number of "points" of sugar you extracted from the grain. Let's say you pulled 7.5 gallons of 1.040 SG wort after mashing that would give you:
40 (OG) x 7.5 (gal of wort) = 300 (actual sugar)
Now you just divide the actual amount you extracted by the potential and multiply by 100 to get your mash efficiency percent:
300 (actual)/360 (potential) x 100 = 83.3%
Hopefully this wasn't a huge mess and was understandable :cross:
Multiply the points of specific gravity by the number of pounds of grain you have. Using the US 2-row from above, if your grain bill was 10lbs of US 2-row your potential gravity points would be:
36 (potential) x 10 (lbs of grain) = 360 (potential sugar)
If you have multiple grain types, just do this calculation for each grain and add them up. This gives a number of "points" of potential sugar to be extracted from the grain.
You then get the pre-boil gravity after mashing and multiply by the number of gallons of wort you drained. This gives you the actual number of "points" of sugar you extracted from the grain. Let's say you pulled 7.5 gallons of 1.040 SG wort after mashing that would give you:
40 (OG) x 7.5 (gal of wort) = 300 (actual sugar)
Now you just divide the actual amount you extracted by the potential and multiply by 100 to get your mash efficiency percent:
300 (actual)/360 (potential) x 100 = 83.3%
Hopefully this wasn't a huge mess and was understandable :cross:
MonkeyBot
Well-Known Member
Awesome, hope it helps you out. I'm still new to all grain and my efficiency is all over the place since I keep changing my process every brew. 72% first time, 62% second time and 79% third time, although that third one was only 79% because I did it parti-gyle style and got more sugar out with the second sparge. If I hadn't run the second sparge it would've been 57% 
I think I know the process I need now (closer to the first time I did it) and once I get some practice (and stop mashing 30lbs of grain for a parti-gyle brew) I'll be able to dial-in to my setup's actual efficiency and be able to successfully predict outcomes.
I think I know the process I need now (closer to the first time I did it) and once I get some practice (and stop mashing 30lbs of grain for a parti-gyle brew) I'll be able to dial-in to my setup's actual efficiency and be able to successfully predict outcomes.
Invertalon
Well-Known Member
I use one of those simple bazooka screens in my 10-gallon cooler MT and with my last IPA hit a 78% mash efficiency. No issues what-so-ever with it. No interest in a false bottom with how well the bazooka works for me.
JosephN
Well-Known Member
JosephN
Well-Known Member
I am still pretty new to brewing, started in mid to late June and this past weekend I brewed my 12th & 13th batch. I did go back and calculate the real/true mash efficiency of the ones I had enough info to do and noticed that with batch sparking I got around 60-70%. The two this weekend were both between 74-75%. Now my real goal is just like you said, being as consistent as possible. I don't mind forking out the money for a FB, and if I'm thinking correctly it should help me be more consistent with lautering. I dumped out my grain the other day and there was enough good looking wort left in the cooler that would have been nice to have. I should have tested it but I didn't think about it. So what do you think, would it help enough and what other tweaks might be made? I don't really have control over my crush at this point and the crush it just enough to crack the shell open and bust up the insides, while leaving just a little dust.
Invertalon
Well-Known Member
Sparge method?
I do a batch sparge... So I will mash in with my grain for the 60mins or so, drain the MT completely empty when complete... Then add the full volume of strike water, stir well and then after a few minutes drain all that and start the boil.
In Beer Smith, I leave my total brewhouse efficiency at 70% which gets me real close to my expected ABV and such, but my calculated mash efficiency always tends to end up mid to high 70's.
JaimeTheLimey
Well-Known Member
I ran a double batch last weekend and borrowed a buddy's MT to speed things up. Same MT as mine (10 gal cooler) but he uses a bazooka screen while I use a false bottom. Ran the same efficiency on both.
Next time you buy grain try running the crush through a second time. If you get a bump in efficiency you may not be getting as good a crush as people are telling you. If not, then at least it rules that out.
Next time you buy grain try running the crush through a second time. If you get a bump in efficiency you may not be getting as good a crush as people are telling you. If not, then at least it rules that out.
If you have an interest in fly sparing and buying more equipment, get a FB.
I love the ease and simplicity of batch sparging with a braid, I would try and fix that issue with perhaps a finer crush.
Do you have any pics of the crush?
Or I'll throw you a curveball, but a mill and start crushing your own while buying grain by the sack...
Mills range from $30 and up, and don't let the low price of a $30 corona mill convince you its NG IMHO.
I love the ease and simplicity of batch sparging with a braid, I would try and fix that issue with perhaps a finer crush.
Do you have any pics of the crush?
Or I'll throw you a curveball, but a mill and start crushing your own while buying grain by the sack...
Mills range from $30 and up, and don't let the low price of a $30 corona mill convince you its NG IMHO.
This thread is interesting.
I fly sparge. Don't have a false bottom, use a braid. Regularly achieve 80% or better in lauter efficiency (usually around 75% in brewhouse efficiency). Would using a false bottom improve those numbers?
My kegging system has a firm limit in capacity so I'm not looking to increase yield per se, but....saving money on grain might be nice.
I fly sparge. Don't have a false bottom, use a braid. Regularly achieve 80% or better in lauter efficiency (usually around 75% in brewhouse efficiency). Would using a false bottom improve those numbers?
My kegging system has a firm limit in capacity so I'm not looking to increase yield per se, but....saving money on grain might be nice.
JosephN
Well-Known Member
This thread is interesting.
I fly sparge. Don't have a false bottom, use a braid. Regularly achieve 80% or better in lauter efficiency (usually around 75% in brewhouse efficiency). Would using a false bottom improve those numbers?
My kegging system has a firm limit in capacity so I'm not looking to increase yield per se, but....saving money on grain might be nice.
and also give us the ability to make bigger beers, if we wanted, because there is only so much grain and water that a 10 gallon cooler can hold.
JosephN
Well-Known Member
See pictures below.
The first three are American 2 row and the last is 120L
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445999914.699076.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445999932.292141.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445999944.042598.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445999955.609352.jpg
Crush more IMO.
I like this pic showing a good crush
http://brewlikeapro.net/images/milled_grain.jpg
from this article
http://brewlikeapro.net/maltmilling.html
JosephN
Well-Known Member
Yep it surely looks like I need a finer grind. I could see a lot of nearly whole kernels not busted well. I don't know if I should just get my own corona mill or get them to grind it finer. I'm probably leaning more toward me grinding it because if it's wrong it would be in me at that point.
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What type mill was used for the first three pictures? If it is adjustable, someone needs to and if not, yikes.
JosephN
Well-Known Member
I'm not 100% sure but I remember them saying that it is adjustable. Now the original home brew shop that I went to has one that is adjustable but really sucks because they have to pull it apart to adjust it. I don't go there for grain anymore.
With good batch sparging procedures, a false bottom will not improve your mash (specifically the lauter component) efficiency. However, as noted previously, a FB will likely improve lauter efficiency when fly sparging.
There are three important efficiency metrics when brewing:
When fly sparging, you have a non-uniform sugar concentration in the wort by design. Ideally what you want, in order to maximize lauter efficiency, is a concentration gradient that varies only in the vertical direction, so that the wort concentration is uniform across any horizontal plane in the MLT. In order to achieve this, you want the wort velocity to be uniform throughout the MLT while sparging, and no horizontal flow of liquid (above the FB) while sparging. This is very hard to achieve with a braid, but much easier to achieve with a good FB. So, a FB is the best choice for fly sparging.
When batch sparging, you absolutely do not want any sugar concentration gradients in the wort prior to draining, either for initial run-off or sparge run-off. With no concentration gradients throughout the mash, the flow velocities during run-off don't affect anything (unless you run off fast enough to over-compact the grain bed and stick the run-off.) Since flow uniformity makes no difference when doing a proper batch sparge, a FB offers no advantage over a braid. To make sure you have no concentration gradients, you want to stir the mash well prior to each run-off (stir then vorlauf.) To maximize lauter efficiency when batch sparging, you want to adjust strike and sparge volumes such that all of the run-offs are approximately equal volume.
Batch sparging can produce good lauter efficiencies if the MLT undrainable volume is low, and the mash is well stirred prior to each run-off. Below is a chart that shows maximum batch sparge lauter efficiency for a single batch sparge as a function of grain weight for various MLT undrainable volumes, assuming 0.12 gal/lb apparent grain absorption, and a pre-boil volume of 6.75 gal. Grain is assumed to have 80% potential extract (sugar) by weight on a dry basis, and grain moisture content is 4%.
If your batch sparge process is producing mash efficiencies significantly lower than shown in the chart above, and you are stirring properly, then your problem is with your conversion efficiency. This is usually due to the mash time being too short for the crush size and mash temperature, and can usually be improved by decreasing the crush size, and/or increasing the mash time. pH out of range can also affect conversion efficiency, but is often not the primary cause. Conversion completion can be monitored by comparing the SG of the wort in the mash to the table shown here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Conversion_efficiency
Brew on
There are three important efficiency metrics when brewing:
- Conversion Efficiency - percentage of available starch converted to sugar
- Lauter Efficiency - percentage of sugar in the mash that makes it into the boil kettle
- Transfer Efficiency - percentage of post-boil BK volume that makes it into the fermenter (i.e. trub losses, etc.)
Mash (or Kettle) Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency
Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Transfer Efficiency
Unless otherwise stated efficiencies used or reported by brewing software is usually brewhouse efficiency.Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Transfer Efficiency
When fly sparging, you have a non-uniform sugar concentration in the wort by design. Ideally what you want, in order to maximize lauter efficiency, is a concentration gradient that varies only in the vertical direction, so that the wort concentration is uniform across any horizontal plane in the MLT. In order to achieve this, you want the wort velocity to be uniform throughout the MLT while sparging, and no horizontal flow of liquid (above the FB) while sparging. This is very hard to achieve with a braid, but much easier to achieve with a good FB. So, a FB is the best choice for fly sparging.
When batch sparging, you absolutely do not want any sugar concentration gradients in the wort prior to draining, either for initial run-off or sparge run-off. With no concentration gradients throughout the mash, the flow velocities during run-off don't affect anything (unless you run off fast enough to over-compact the grain bed and stick the run-off.) Since flow uniformity makes no difference when doing a proper batch sparge, a FB offers no advantage over a braid. To make sure you have no concentration gradients, you want to stir the mash well prior to each run-off (stir then vorlauf.) To maximize lauter efficiency when batch sparging, you want to adjust strike and sparge volumes such that all of the run-offs are approximately equal volume.
Batch sparging can produce good lauter efficiencies if the MLT undrainable volume is low, and the mash is well stirred prior to each run-off. Below is a chart that shows maximum batch sparge lauter efficiency for a single batch sparge as a function of grain weight for various MLT undrainable volumes, assuming 0.12 gal/lb apparent grain absorption, and a pre-boil volume of 6.75 gal. Grain is assumed to have 80% potential extract (sugar) by weight on a dry basis, and grain moisture content is 4%.
If your batch sparge process is producing mash efficiencies significantly lower than shown in the chart above, and you are stirring properly, then your problem is with your conversion efficiency. This is usually due to the mash time being too short for the crush size and mash temperature, and can usually be improved by decreasing the crush size, and/or increasing the mash time. pH out of range can also affect conversion efficiency, but is often not the primary cause. Conversion completion can be monitored by comparing the SG of the wort in the mash to the table shown here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Conversion_efficiency
Brew on
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