Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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I generally cool to 180 or so before throwing these hops in, and then the wort is still cooling a bit on its own..... maybe down to 140-150 over the 30 minutes. Every 5-10 minutes I swirl the wort with my immersion chiller to kind of distribute the hops in the wort again and get maximum contact.

If you throw in at 0 minutes, wort is at 212 and some of the hop oils will basically "boil off" quickly at those temps. Chilling a bit allows the flavor and aroma of the hops to come through better..... at least that is the theory I believe.
 
Braufessor said:
I generally cool to 180 or so before throwing these hops in, and then the wort is still cooling a bit on its own..... maybe down to 140-150 over the 30 minutes. Every 5-10 minutes I swirl the wort with my immersion chiller to kind of distribute the hops in the wort again and get maximum contact.

If you throw in at 0 minutes, wort is at 212 and some of the hop oils will basically "boil off" quickly at those temps. Chilling a bit allows the flavor and aroma of the hops to come through better..... at least that is the theory I believe.
Click to expand...

Ah. I believe I understand now. At 0 minutes, cool it down to 180F but there is no whirlpool during the 30 minute steep at 180F. Just a couple stirs every few minutes to maximize wort/hop contact time. Would whirlpooling during the 30 minute steep hurt anything?

Thanks for the reply....
 
bobbrews said:
HBT Heady Topper clone attempts are continuing to evolve. While the page 1 recipe will create a fine beer, it is not a perfect clone for Heady Topper...No actual hops are boiled in the real Heady Topper either...The water profile is also extremely important.

If I were to clone again, I would advise gaining some IBUs during the whirlpool instead of relying on 100% of the isomerization at boil start. Again, no actual hops should be boiled:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 8 day, Two-Stage Dry Hop

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week.
Click to expand...

This is a bit in response to the whirlpool question, but if the OP was still posting the recipe would probably be a lot closer to this now. This was originally a crowd-sourced recipe, and bobbrews is the only one involved from the beginning who still seems to be posting.

I did this clone 4 times with some variations and have been trying to work on my own IPA recipe using a hop-bursting technique, but after trying that a few times and it always falling short of my last HT clone attempt I think bobbrews is really on to something with no hops in the boil and using more dry hops. I ordered a can of IBU injector and some Comet and am going to give this method a try for my next HT inspired IPA.

As far as the aroma steep/whirlpool, if you have professional equipment that is one thing, but if you just have a kettle I think it's better to give it a good stir at the beginning and then keep the lid on the kettle for the entire time to keep the aroma in as much as possible. I use a large hop bag and feel like the hops get utilized fine without stirring.
 
ianmatth said:
This is a bit in response to the whirlpool question, but if the OP was still posting the recipe would probably be a lot closer to this now. This was originally a crowd-sourced recipe, and bobbrews is the only one involved from the beginning who still seems to be posting.

I did this clone 4 times with some variations and have been trying to work on my own IPA recipe using a hop-bursting technique, but after trying that a few times and it always falling short of my last HT clone attempt I think bobbrews is really on to something with no hops in the boil and using more dry hops. I ordered a can of IBU injector and some Comet and am going to give this method a try for my next HT inspired IPA.

As far as the aroma steep/whirlpool, if you have professional equipment that is one thing, but if you just have a kettle I think it's better to give it a good stir at the beginning and then keep the lid on the kettle for the entire time to keep the aroma in as much as possible. I use a large hop bag and feel like the hops get utilized fine without stirring.
Click to expand...

I agree, this thread went through a lull in terms of really trying to clone HT. Others have offered their HT inpired versions, but the real cloning has tapered off. Maybe because the updated recipe on the first page has been deemed a clone? I don't know. There are too many pages on this thread go through to find the official "clone" recipe. I haven't found it. I'm not sure the recipe on the first page is up to date as the latest and greatest, or closest to a HT clone.

So, you've done four attempts at cloning HT. How'd they turn out? When you say you've done this clone, were you able to actually clone it? Which recipe did you use?
 
Disagreed. The first page attempt is like 75% of a clone. It's missing a lot of that Heady dankness. It has also been confirmed that there are zero boil hops.
 
Are you matching every single process that the Alchemist uses? Probably not. Just because the process doesn't match, doesn't meant the clone doesn't.

I can't comment on whether the clone matches, but it makes a damn fine DIPA. I'm brewing my 3rd attempt Sunday.
 
roncruiser said:
So, you've done four attempts at cloning HT. How'd they turn out? When you say you've done this clone, were you able to actually clone it? Which recipe did you use?
Click to expand...

I actually misinterpreted theveganbrewer's Heady Topper Clone Recipe Attempt 4 and was doing a triple dry hop on day 8, 14, and 21 (it's not easily readable to those who don't use BeerSmith and the pre-attempt information in his first post was also confusing his 4th attempt information as well.)

The first time I used 5.5 oz total and I didn't think it was there so I assumed 5.5 oz must be the amount for the first dry hop alone and ending up using 11 oz total dry hops (triple dry hop with 5.5, 2.75, and 2.75 oz) for the next 3 attempts. I also subbed for Amarillo every single time (but I serious doubt HT ever used Amarillo anyway.) When I used Hop Shot for the boil and got my pH and hardness right it was actually better than the real HT...but I was using twice as many dry hops as the recipe called for.

I made a lot of my own changes as well. After the first attempt I substituted a 50/50 mix of Golden Promise and 2-row for Pearl malt as I experimented and found I couldn't tell the difference. My first two attempts finished too dry at 1.005 and 1.008 so I dropped the sugar and ended up at 1.011 for my third attempt. For my 4th attempt I also dropped the wheat as I found I personally preferred IPAs without it. I used 4 tsp of gypsum in the mash, 1% acidulated malt, and ended up with a pH of 5.3.

Anyway, to anyone who wants to clone Heady Topper as closely as possible, I would advise using bobrews recent recipe, adding 4 tsp of gypsum to the mash, and adjusting your pH to hit 5.3 at room temperature in the mash (from what I've heard that would be 5.1 at 150*.)
 
Again, I was at the brewery, all around it. It's most definitely TF Pearl, TF Caramalt and TF wheat.

I had the same thought as you, this isn't the recipe since there are hops during the boil.
As other have said, we brew on such a small scale, that 5 min addition is there to compensate for the thermal mass of 15bbl vs 5-10g. I brought my gypsum up to get close to the brew sheet and it helps.

Is this a perfect clone? No, but tell me is there any perfect clones out there? Did a brewer verify any of them and said " your right "?
 
ianmatth said:
The first time I used 5.5 oz total and I didn't think it was there so I assumed 5.5 oz must be the amount for the first dry hop alone and ending up using 11 oz total dry hops (triple dry hop with 5.5, 2.75, and 2.75 oz) for the next 3 attempts.
Click to expand...
OMG, that's awesome! My last beer I did was 6 oz dry hop (split over two dry hops; 2nd one in the keg) and the aroma is amazing. I think I will up my dry hop closer to 6 oz every time from now on. I can't imagine 11 or is there diminishing returns where you don't get that much more getting that high?
 
Which such big dry hopping Are you guys getting that fresh out of the bag hop aroma or is it a more rounded complex fruity aromas, iv found with big dry hops I get that fresh out of the bag hop aroma which I don't like, I prefare a more fruity rounded aroma
 
The batch I was referencing was an all citra hops, except I used hop extract for a big bittering charge. Mine is only 2 weeks old, but I get this huge hit you over the head fruity, citrusy, grapefruit character in the aroma and while drinking. I think it's pretty great, but of course everyone is different.
 
ianmatth said:
I actually misinterpreted theveganbrewer's Heady Topper Clone Recipe Attempt 4 and was doing a triple dry hop on day 8, 14, and 21 (it's not easily readable to those who don't use BeerSmith and the pre-attempt information in his first post was also confusing his 4th attempt information as well.)

The first time I used 5.5 oz total and I didn't think it was there so I assumed 5.5 oz must be the amount for the first dry hop alone and ending up using 11 oz total dry hops (triple dry hop with 5.5, 2.75, and 2.75 oz) for the next 3 attempts. I also subbed for Amarillo every single time (but I serious doubt HT ever used Amarillo anyway.) When I used Hop Shot for the boil and got my pH and hardness right it was actually better than the real HT...but I was using twice as many dry hops as the recipe called for.

I made a lot of my own changes as well. After the first attempt I substituted a 50/50 mix of Golden Promise and 2-row for Pearl malt as I experimented and found I couldn't tell the difference. My first two attempts finished too dry at 1.005 and 1.008 so I dropped the sugar and ended up at 1.011 for my third attempt. For my 4th attempt I also dropped the wheat as I found I personally preferred IPAs without it. I used 4 tsp of gypsum in the mash, 1% acidulated malt, and ended up with a pH of 5.3.

Anyway, to anyone who wants to clone Heady Topper as closely as possible, I would advise using bobrews recent recipe, adding 4 tsp of gypsum to the mash, and adjusting your pH to hit 5.3 at room temperature in the mash (from what I've heard that would be 5.1 at 150*.)
Click to expand...

Good stuff man. Better than HT is a good thing! Please share that recipe. I'd like to take a look-see. More for documented changes than anything else.

I'm assuming adding 4 tsp of Gypsum is more for dialing in your Ph for the type of water you begin your process with in the mash, or is that more a blanket statement to get the Ph in the ballpark to begin with?
 
mtnagel said:
Are you matching every single process that the Alchemist uses? Probably not. Just because the process doesn't match, doesn't meant the clone doesn't.

I can't comment on whether the clone matches, but it makes a damn fine DIPA. I'm brewing my 3rd attempt Sunday.
Click to expand...

I agree that the processes do not have to match to generate a clone. Conducting a blind taste test to see whether the taster can tell any difference between the clone and a fresh can of HT is the best way to determine if its cloned.

trimixdiver1 said:
Honesty the one on the first page is close, I maxed out the gypsum and I'm within 95% I'd say.
Click to expand...
Impressive. Your 95% tells me that 95 percent of the time, most tasters would not be able to tell the difference between a fresh can of HT and your clone. Am I interpreting that correctly?
 
roncruiser said:
I'm assuming adding 4 tsp of Gypsum is more for dialing in your Ph for the type of water you begin your process with in the mash, or is that more a blanket statement to get the Ph in the ballpark to begin with?
Click to expand...
Adding gypsum is to get the sulfate level up. It will also lower your pH, but whether you need or want that depends on your starting water. For my tap water, that's a good thing, but I also need to add acid to lower it even farther.
 
roncruiser said:
I agree that the processes do not have to match to generate a clone. Conducting a blind taste test to see whether the taster can tell any difference between the clone and a fresh can of HT is the best way to determine if its cloned.





Impressive. Your 95% tells me that 95 percent of the time, most tasters would not be able to tell the difference between a fresh can of HT and your clone. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Click to expand...


It's not my clone, it's the one on this thread with some chemistry tweaks.
 
roncruiser said:
Just want to make sure what Aroma Steep is meant in the version 4 recipe above. Can someone please clarify. Does this mean steeping for 30 minutes before cooling? If so, why not just throw the hops in at boil 0.0 minutes. Does the steep include whirlpool?

I'm missing something here. My brain's not working.

Thanks....
Click to expand...

I think it means whirlpool addition. Get temps down to 170-180 add hops and let steep for 30 mins.

OR

It means add hops right after flameout and let steep 20 mins.

from what I've read about HT clones, I would go with the whirlpool - but all up to you.
 
You can do a single post-boil addition:

Add the whirlpool hops at 180 F and keep them between 160-180F for 20-30 minutes.

or you can...

Do both:

-Direct flameout addition, letting the wort cool down to 165F (for the added isomerization without destroying too much flavor/aroma)

-Followed by a 165F whirlpool/hopstand for 20-30 min (no isomerization, but a lot of pleasant hop character)
 
joehoppy said:
12.75 lb United Kingdom - Pearl 37 2.1 82.9%
13 oz American - Caramel / Crystal 15L 35 15 5.3%
13 oz American - White Wheat 40 2.8 5.3%
1 lb Soft Candi Sugar - Blond 38 5 6.5%
15.38 lb Total
Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
10ml Hop Extract ? Boil 60 min
2 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Boil 0 min
1 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.5 oz Apollo Pellet 20 Boil 0 min
1 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Whirlpool at 180 °F 15 min
1 oz simcoe Pellet 12.7 Whirlpool at 180 °F 15 min
1 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Whirlpool at 180 °F 15 min
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Whirlpool at 180 °F 15 min
0.5 oz apollo Pellet 20 Whirlpool at 180 °F 15 min
2 oz Simcoe Pellet 12.7 Dry Hop 4 days
1 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Dry Hop 4 days
1 oz Amarillo Pellet 8.6 Dry Hop 4 days
1 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Dry Hop 4 days
0.5 oz apollo Pellet 20 Dry Hop 4 days
Show Summary View
Mash Guidelines
Amount Description Type Temp Time
-- Infusion 151 F 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.33 qt/lb
Other Ingredients
Amount Name Type Use Time
10 ml hopshot Other Boil 60 min
Click to expand...

I've tried the Off-the Topper clone recipe three times now. It's pretty close to the Heady Topper I just drank with the third batch I just made. I've been using the Vermont yeast and been making sure I start with double the amount - either with multiple yeast starters or just double the vials. I've also added Galaxy hops to the dry hopping. maybe the best IPA I've ever made. wish I had made more than 12 gallons.
 
roncruiser said:
Good stuff man. Better than HT is a good thing! Please share that recipe. I'd like to take a look-see. More for documented changes than anything else.

I'm assuming adding 4 tsp of Gypsum is more for dialing in your Ph for the type of water you begin your process with in the mash, or is that more a blanket statement to get the Ph in the ballpark to begin with?
Click to expand...

7 lbs Golden Promise
7 lbs 2-row
1 lbs Caramalt
2 oz Acidulated Malt
4 tsp gypsum
Mash in 7.5 gallons at 150* for 60 minutes
Add 2.5 gallons of 180* water for a step mash at 156* for 10 minutes
7.5 gallons pre boil, 6 gallons post boil

10 ml Hop Jizz @ 90 min
1 oz Simcoe, 1/2 oz Apollo @ 5 min
2 oz Simcoe, 1 oz CTZ @ Flame out
2 oz Simcoe, 1 oz CTZ, 1/2 oz Centennial, 1/2 oz Apollo, 1/2 Citra, 1/2 oz El Dorado @ 170* Aroma Steep for 30 min
Pitch 400 billion cells Conan
2 oz Simcoe, 1 oz CTZ, 1 oz Centennial, 1/2 oz Apollo, 1/2 Citra, 1/2 oz El Dorado @ Day 8 Dry Hop
1 oz Simcoe, 1/2 oz CTZ, 1/2 oz Centennial, 1/4 oz Apollo, 1/4 Citra, 1/4 oz El Dorado @ Day 14 Dry Hop
1 oz Simcoe, 1/2 oz CTZ, 1/2 oz Centennial, 1/4 oz Apollo, 1/4 Citra, 1/4 oz El Dorado @ Day 21 Dry Hop
Bottle on Day 28
1.074 OG/1.010 FG

Gypsum helps with pH, but is more for calcium and sulfate.

I'd imagine there is diminishing return with so much dry hops, but that is probably why it was better than the real HT once I got my pH and hardness right.
 
Apologies if this is not allowed (delete if needed) but I posted up a thread with a lot of questions regarding heady techniques in the recipe forum. Haven't gotten any replies, and was hoping some of you experts would have a moment to provide some insight(Conan yeast, FWH, hop stand techniques).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=524579

Kind regards,
Matt
 
So what is the word on water profile?

I went crazy at 750ppm SO4 and I think its way too much. This version the hops don't really pop as much as they did with 300ppm SO4. But my hops were 6+ months old in the freezer. So that could have something to do with it.
 
I did 400 ppm in a batch that got 3rd out of 37 IPAs in a competition if that means anything.

This last batch I just brewed yesterday I dropped it to 350 ppm just because.
 
750ppm so4!!! Wow! That's super high for sulfate. I think when John talks about hardness levels around 700 that is total water hardness which takes in to account a lot more than just the sulfate level. Calcium, sulfate, magnesium etc. All together add up to total hardness.
 
I try to stick around 250-300 ppm for a single IPA and 350 for a double. Seems to work well for me.
 
joehoppy said:
750ppm so4!!! Wow! That's super high for sulfate. I think when John talks about hardness levels around 700 that is total water hardness which takes in to account a lot more than just the sulfate level. Calcium, sulfate, magnesium etc. All together add up to total hardness.
Click to expand...


Yes 750 total, it was 475 SO4.
 
Ambleside said:
Quick help here guys!

Not exactly a heady clone, but heady style with NZ and Australian hops.

I'm going to FWH, 20~min addition, then loads of 5min to Flamout, Hopstand, and a few stages of dry hopping.

BUT, my issue. No ferm chamber. Using yeast bay vermont, and my ambient is 67 degrees. How many days should I keep it in a swamp cooler before letting it ramp up?

Cheers!
Click to expand...


I typically have waited for the yeast to kick off but have done a few packed in ice for logistics reasons and it's been fine. I would chill to your target deem temp before pitching the yeast regardless.
 
Braufessor said:
I generally cool to 180 or so before throwing these hops in, and then the wort is still cooling a bit on its own..... maybe down to 140-150 over the 30 minutes. Every 5-10 minutes I swirl the wort with my immersion chiller to kind of distribute the hops in the wort again and get maximum contact.

If you throw in at 0 minutes, wort is at 212 and some of the hop oils will basically "boil off" quickly at those temps. Chilling a bit allows the flavor and aroma of the hops to come through better..... at least that is the theory I believe.
Click to expand...

I'm experimenting with turning off the boil, wait a few minutes then adding hops. I, however, cover so any hop infused steam drips back to in kettle. Only done 2 this way. I also skip the dry hopping, but add them in the whirlpool. So far so good. This is a citrus IPA..sorry no HT pics.

View attachment 1429834136146.jpg
 
PianoMan said:
My 1st HT attempt was sooo bad, haven't got the nerve to try again.
Click to expand...

Really? Bad overall? Or just bad as in not close to the real thing? I feel like it would be hard for anything close to this to come out bad. I changed around some of the hops and quantity and it still came out fantastic.
 
aslander said:
I feel like it would be hard for anything close to this to come out bad.
Click to expand...

I have had a couple batches come out not great..... biggest thing in those batches is that the yeast pooped out on me at 1.016-1.018 range...... Once I got a better routine down for this yeast, I have had good success since then with it getting to 1.010-12.

But, those sweet batches were not good.
 
The one I just did with older yeast and hops that spent 6 months in the freezer was good but not HT. The beer is almost clear at 5 weeks! I'm saying that's from not using the freshest hops. I usually buy 1lb bags, no more, I will be buying 1oz bags so the hops are the freshest they can be.
 
Braufessor said:
I have had a couple batches come out not great..... biggest thing in those batches is that the yeast pooped out on me at 1.016-1.018 range...... Once I got a better routine down for this yeast, I have had good success since then with it getting to 1.010-12.

But, those sweet batches were not good.
Click to expand...

The struggle is real. Thanks for sharing. I thought I was the only one who can't get their AA low enough sometimes.
 
I have used a recent batch of conan yeast to make about 8-10 beers, and it has worked great for me. I did two things that I think really helped.

#1 - I quit crashing/decanting my starter. I no longer make a big 2+ liter starter, crash, decant and pitch. I make a small, 1L starter and pitch it at 18-24 hours while it is actively fermenting. I pitch the entire liter.
You need to have a good pitch of healthy yeast to begin with. So if I was starting from a pouch/vial, I would perhaps make a starter, crash it and then start with that stepped up starter. Or, if harvesting I will take a pint jar of harvested yeast from my fridge to use. A fresh double pitch of Gigayeast might also be fine to start with....... But, from there, I make a 1L starter 18-24 hours before I plan to pitch the yeast into the fermenter. I have it on the stirplate, it is ACTIVELY fermenting, and I pitch it ALL (only 1liter) into my fermenter/wort. This seems to give me a much better start to fermentation and it seems to go through the sugar and finish out better.

#2 - I generally chill to 58-60. My basement is about 60 degrees. So, I pitch at 58, the heat generated by the fermentation usually brings the temperature of the beer up (gradually over 3-4 days) from 58-60-62-64-66. As soon as I see fermentation start to slow a bit, or see that temp. drop to 65-64-63.... I take the fermenter upstairs where it is 66-68-70 ambient temperature and let it finish out through day 10-14 or so. I have found that they have all been finishing nicely now in the 1.010-1.012 range - which is where I want them.
 

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