Guide to Making a Frozen Yeast Bank

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The original question that has yet to be answered is why a stepped regime of yeast growth will produce MORE yeast than one single pitch in the same (total) volume of wort?

OK, forgive me if I missed it, but a quick google search revealed nothing on that. Where is it documented that this process indeed does result in greater overall cell count?

Yeast growth curve is exponential starting at the end of the lag phase until the start of the stationary phase. I don't see how stepping the media will impact the final cell count when you insert multiple stationary phases between each step. It takes some energy for cells to go in and out of lag/stationary phase that would otherwise feed into the exponential growth phase of a single-step starter.

The only thing I can think of is that when you decant each starter once the stationary phase is entered, you are adding more media. So the total final media used is greater.

Example:

Step 1) 250 ml starter, decant 200 ml
Step 2) 1 L starter, decant 750 ml
Step 3) 4 L starter

All in all, this will provide the yeast with 5.25 L of media, and assuming you are very careful and get good flocculation before each decanting, you should end up with a yeast cake with roughly the equivalent of a 5.25L starter.

So, comparing a stepped-up-to 4L starter (5.25 L of media in our example) vs using a basic 4L starter w/ 4 L of media, you can then justify why you would find more cells in the stepped version.

Otherwise, I'm at a bit of a loss how you can expect more cells from a stepped starter vs that of a single step if you assume the same total media provided.
 
OK, forgive me if I missed it, but a quick google search revealed nothing on that. Where is it documented that this process indeed does result in greater overall cell count?

Yeast growth curve is exponential starting at the end of the lag phase until the start of the stationary phase. I don't see how stepping the media will impact the final cell count when you insert multiple stationary phases between each step. It takes some energy for cells to go in and out of lag/stationary phase that would otherwise feed into the exponential growth phase of a single-step starter.

The only thing I can think of is that when you decant each starter once the stationary phase is entered, you are adding more media. So the total final media used is greater.

Example:

Step 1) 250 ml starter, decant 200 ml
Step 2) 1 L starter, decant 750 ml
Step 3) 4 L starter

All in all, this will provide the yeast with 5.25 L of media, and assuming you are very careful and get good flocculation before each decanting, you should end up with a yeast cake with roughly the equivalent of a 5.25L starter.

So, comparing a stepped-up-to 4L starter (5.25 L of media in our example) vs using a basic 4L starter w/ 4 L of media, you can then justify why you would find more cells in the stepped version.

Otherwise, I'm at a bit of a loss how you can expect more cells from a stepped starter vs that of a single step if you assume the same total media provided.

At each decant you are also removing ethanol and other yeast waste products. I know I feel more like reproducing in a nice clean pool than in a septic tank.... ;)
 
I'm at a bit of a loss how you can expect more cells from a stepped starter vs that of a single step if you assume the same total media provided.
Me too, but that's what happens. It was confirmed by the yeast manufacturers and Jamil Zainasheff in emails to me, but none could actually explain WHY it occurs.
 
Access to oxygen. Lots of data shows that access to oxygen makes a sizable difference in yeast cell count.

Small volumes have better access to oxygen than large volumes (in the same container). Ratio of oxygenated surface area to volume. (It would seem that stir plates make this volume irrelevant, though).

So, keeping your starter small in the beginning improves early growth.

Anyhoo, this is my guess.
 
Small volumes have better access to oxygen than large volumes (in the same container). Ratio of oxygenated surface area to volume. (It would seem that stir plates make this volume irrelevant, though).

Yeah, seems to make the point irrelevant that it is oxygen starvation. The only exception to this I see is that alcohol content or yeast waste products hinder oxygen absorption of the solution enough to cause premature entry into stationary phase.

Flyguy, did those guys actually say a 4L starter that was stepped up to would have more viable yeast cells than an equivalent single-step starter that had the same total media volume?
 
Flyguy, did those guys actually say a 4L starter that was stepped up to would have more viable yeast cells than an equivalent single-step starter that had the same total media volume?
Yes, exactly. I have seen that mentioned a number of times, and sent them that exact question -- why does stepping-up a starter to a certain total volume yield more yeast than a single pitch of yeast in the same volume of wort. Everyone basically reiterated the recommended method and restated that it will produce a greater volume of healthier yeast this way. Nobody attempted to explain the mechanism why.

I emailed White Labs and Wyeast with the follow-up and got no response. I also did some digging myself through the brewing science literature and came up short. Got tired of looking and dropped it.
 
With access to spectrophotometry equipment, I am tempted to make an experiment out of this. Wish I had the time, honestly.
 
I haven't caught up on reading the entire thread, yet. BUT it was enough to galvanize me into ordering a yeast bank starter kit (with 5 vials included). I'm already harvesting and saving in the fridge (mini-fridge set for 36 degrees F) but would really like to have a safe repository to build from if (or when) my actively harvested crop gets 'off'.
This thread has been a tremendous help.
I have an old microbiology scope (reaches up to 100x though for that you need the oil) I guess I really would do well to acquire slides and such to take a peek at the cells from time to time and see if I can catch them mutating before I pitch and risk ruining a batch of beer. Perhaps this summer I'll start on that phase of the project (so much to do, so little time or $$). I'm glad I kept the microscope instead of getting rid of it on Ebay. Who knew?
 
I have been on and off of this thread and others on this topic over the past few months. I am glad to see some info coming out on this. When I started mine it was very hard to find anybody that was promoting it. It is a great idea and I can tell you that is works with fantastic results. I currently have some 5 yeasts in my bank and with a few days of prep time you can have a strong starter for your brew.

Pulling off the alcohol is big when starting it up and moving from your first feed to the second to grow it. I also have found that keeping it a little warmer helps to push its growth. I use nothing more than a small dish towel wrapped around and under the container to keep it insulated while it grows. My next level is to turn a mini fridge into a yeast grower where I can control the temp to a "T" for its growth.
 
I never claimed to be a yeast expert and I don't recall answering this question in email.

If we're talking about the step sizes of starters, it isn't anything really fancy that determines the needed size. If you use too small a step, there is very little or no growth. If you use too large a step, you're making beer and not getting any more growth. In between these two extremes is the ideal ratio. One which does not waste starter material and is a size that is easy to handle, yet provides enough growth and does not require more steps than needed. The more steps you do, the more likely you are to contaminate the starter.

You can actually graph the effect of various step sizes, which is what I did to come up with the data for the pitching rate calculator. It isn't linear, as many people think.

Shameless Plug: Chris White and I have a yeast book due out this fall and it covers this in more detail if folks are interested.
 
I spent a long time lurking and learning from everyone on the forum. I've searched the 26 pages of this thread but still have a question!

I've tried this twice now, and each time I get far less yeast in the vial than I think I should. There was so little the first time I dumped the vials. I have a batch in the pre-freeze refrigeration period now that looks marginally better, but I'm only seeing about 1/8 inch in most (I'm using 16ml vials). There still appears to be some yeast suspended, but I don’t think there's going to be a significant increase.

I've been using a pipette to draw from the bottom of my starter flask. It looked good in the pipette, and it all stayed suspended in the vial initially.


I don't want to freeze a bunch of flat beer and glycerin holding a useless amount of yeast. I'm not clear on this: Should I be seeing a significant layer of yeast settling on the bottom like I do on my crash-cooled starters, and if so how deep might I expect it to be?

Thanks - not just for this, but for all the great info everyone shares!
G Brewer,

I don't know if anyone answered your question on the amount but here is what works for me. As I start my yeast I build the volume up at levels until I have a large 500ml starter. I allow this to become active and as it begins to slow I poor off the top solution which is nothing more than alcohol. I then refresh this slurry with a new mix of food for lack of a better term. This gives me a burst of energy to my yeast without the excess alcohol. After this is when I begin my vial filling. I use a basic swirl technique to mix the yeast and the liquid into a creamy mixture. After filling my vials they are placed into the fridge to settle and this is where I think I can help you with your question. After a day I can see the amount of yeast slurry in my vial. If my level does not make me happy I poor off the liquid and return back to my original yeast slurry and go through the motion again of mixing and adding to the vial. I have had good success with using this process to make sure my vials have a decent amount of yeast in them before freezing.I will say that by lowering your liquid volume in your slurry to begin with is very helpful in getting a nice volume of yeast to begin with. Hope this helps you. Oh, and I have had no problem with the cold yeast hurting the new room temp added yeast but I also do this process fairly quick to get the yeast back in the fridge to begin the settling process again.
 
Actually I think my question got lost in the "step up" conversation (which was also very useful), so I appreciate you digging it out!

Sounds like you've got a good technique going there. It never occurred to me that I could go back to the well, so to speak.

I think I've been chicken about getting the yeast re-suspended after I crash-cool, so I get a little blot of thick yeast off the bottom and then very thin slurry and beer just flows into the divot and up the pipette.

It sounds like you are cutting the volume way back and stirring things up before taking the sample so the slurry is thick but still very liquid. I've been at that point when I pitch because I pour off the oxidized beer and leave just enough to swirl until the whole cake is suspended again. That's what I'll do next time I bank, and now I realize I have the option of going back for more if needed.

Are you doing the whole thing in a 500 or 1000ml flask, and just providing fresh wort after pouring off the old?

Thanks!
 
I am using a 500ml flask and yes I am pouring off the old. I actually use a mix of yeast nutrients and dme to first load up about 200ml. I will let that go through its full run which is about 3 days. I will then pour off the alcohol and make another 200ml feeder. I prefer to pour it off to keep the alcohol level as low as possible and to control volume of course. I want to build the most volume of yeast I can without getting the alcohol to a toxic level for the yeast. Now that being said your flask can only hold so much liquid so you have to pour it off anyway, but I like to get it as low as I can to the cake without taking off that light foggy liquid just above the cake. That is still very good yeast that has not settled. Keep in mind that even though you are pouring off a lot of the alcohol you are still slowly increasing each and every time you make another feeder due to the residual that is left in each previous feed. This can help the yeast build up a good tolerance to alcohol levels but you still need to keep it to 2 or 3 feeds and then pull off your bank strains. You should have a very nice slurry to fill numerous vials and use to pitch to a wort. Hope this helps. Keep brewin.......
 
Let me first say thanks to Flyguy for the thread.

Now to my tip:
Since I have limited space in my freezer to store my yeast, I made my own double layer Styrofoam container. I know that frozen deserts I have stuck in there have not suffered from freezer burn even after a month or more. And they only have one layer, so…

It holds both my White Labs vials and one 4oz medicine bottle for my Wyeast.

I just cut two cups down so they work as a lid. Pressed them together tightly and put two rubber bands on them.

Hope this helps others.
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Freezer burn is caused by dehydration. To avoid freezer burn, just make sure your food is sealed in an airtight container (i.e., ziplock baggie). Layers of insulation make no difference.

The insulation is definitely necessary to avoid your yeast melting during every auto-defrost cycle. I use a child's soft-sided insulated lunchbox.
 
Yes, you are right and I understand freezer burn is not the problem if the yeast is in a sealed container. I was just using the example of Styrofoam protecting the frozen deserts from the defrost cycles. Melted and refrozen ice cream has a very different texture. But, you are right, that is not freezer burn. My bad.

If I had more than two or three vials I too would be looking for a soft-sided insulated lunchbox. For now this is all I need and it should work fine. I hope!
 
Yes, you are right and I understand freezer burn is not the problem if the yeast is in a sealed container. I was just using the example of Styrofoam protecting the frozen deserts from the defrost cycles. Melted and refrozen ice cream has a very different texture. But, you are right, that is not freezer burn. My bad.

If I had more than two or three vials I too would be looking for a soft-sided insulated lunchbox. For now this is all I need and it should work fine. I hope!

Then I think your solution is simple and brilliant!
 
Man, this is just too much work for me, I'll just buy the freaking yeast, lol. After buying a pressure cooker, test tubes, pipette etc etc trips to the store, risk of infection.. all to save a few bucks on yeast? ...meh, I like the idea of storing hard to find yeasts but I think I'll focus on my brewing equipment and process.

I do appreciate this thread though, very interesting and well thought out.
 
Man, this is just too much work for me, I'll just buy the freaking yeast, lol. After buying a pressure cooker, test tubes, pipette etc etc trips to the store, risk of infection.. all to save a few bucks on yeast? ...meh, I like the idea of storing hard to find yeasts but I think I'll focus on my brewing equipment and process.

I do appreciate this thread though, very interesting and well thought out.

As you know, growing yeast is like making beer is like climbing a mountain. You don't have to do it, but there it is. 99 people will never even see the mountain; the other one pulls off the road and heads up.
 
Don't get me wrong, I was ready to pull the trigger on various pieces of equip and go for it but with the amount of time I have I just feel like I'm better off focusing on other areas.

Now that being said, it wouldn't be all that unusual for me to completely reverse course on hat statement and be building my bank in a week, lol.

BTW I still have 3 jars of 1056 in my fridge from viewing the yeast washing thread 6-7 months ago and I haven't used them ...
 
Don't get me wrong, I was ready to pull the trigger on various pieces of equip and go for it but with the amount of time I have I just feel like I'm better off focusing on other areas.

Now that being said, it wouldn't be all that unusual for me to completely reverse course on hat statement and be building my bank in a week, lol.

BTW I still have 3 jars of 1056 in my fridge from viewing the yeast washing thread 6-7 months ago and I haven't used them ...

I don't use a pressure cooker. When I bust open a smack pack, I split it 11 ways. 10 labeled vials, each with glycerin, straight into the freezer. The 11th part into a starter for the current beer.

You know you want to. It's actually really easy.
 
So you just use sterilized vials, fill them about 1/2 way up with pure glycerin then add yeast from the smack pack, then straight into freezer? So the vial ends up being about 3/4 full?
 
Yea, it is like the difference in a guy who drives a 4 door wagon and a hot rodder who tinkers with his ride every chance he gets. One is satisfied with just getting there the other wants to get there in style.

Like someone much wiser than me said, 'Its all in the yeast.” If I can improve my favorite brew by reusing a yeast saved from the last time and there by letting the dominate traits come out, I will.
 
So you just use sterilized vials, fill them about 1/2 way up with pure glycerin then add yeast from the smack pack, then straight into freezer? So the vial ends up being about 3/4 full?

Almost. I don't use that much glycerin. I attached a PDF that has an outline of my process, materials, etc. I made this for my club. It would make my day if you gained something from it.

PA140006.JPG


View attachment Banking Yeast 3.zip
 
Almost. I don't use that much glycerin. I attached a PDF that has an outline of my process, materials, etc. I made this for my club. It would make my day if you gained something from it.

I like it, very similar to what I'm doing. I do make a starter before harvesting though, since it hopefully allows me to get a higher cell count in the vials. I Star-San everything, including a tin-foil tray that I have everything sitting on.

I'll decant the starter, pitch however much I need into my brew, then split the rest into about 4 vials usually. So far it's worked well. I haven't had any adverse effects from it and I figure I have just about as much yeast in my vials as are in a White Labs vial.

Combining freezing with washing, I don't think I'll need to buy yeast for a while.
 
I like it, very similar to what I'm doing. I do make a starter before harvesting though, since it hopefully allows me to get a higher cell count in the vials. I Star-San everything, including a tin-foil tray that I have everything sitting on.

I'll decant the starter, pitch however much I need into my brew, then split the rest into about 4 vials usually. So far it's worked well. I haven't had any adverse effects from it and I figure I have just about as much yeast in my vials as are in a White Labs vial.

Combining freezing with washing, I don't think I'll need to buy yeast for a while.

I take it right out of the smack pack to try to absolutely minimize the chance of taking on any bacteria. I don't smack the pack, either.

I have a freaking ton of yeast in those plastic tubes. A lot of strains (I trade with a friend to get new strains).
 
Man, this is just too much work for me, I'll just buy the freaking yeast, lol. After buying a pressure cooker, test tubes, pipette etc etc trips to the store, risk of infection.. all to save a few bucks on yeast? ...meh, I like the idea of storing hard to find yeasts but I think I'll focus on my brewing equipment and process.

I do appreciate this thread though, very interesting and well thought out.

Just for another reason why you might want to bank yeast... Where for example would you currently buy the Fat Tire Ale Yeast that was part of the Oct-Dec 2007 special strains from Wyeast Labs?

I only bother to bank the strains that are of limited release that you can't always get. Commonly available stuff I don't bother with.
 
The genesis of me reading this is the amber I have sitting on Denny's Favorite yeast I got from BMW right now. I want a way to save this yeast. I also want to order and bank PacMan as I brewed a Rogue Dead Guy clone with that which was amazing and tyhat yeast was just great in terms of attenuation and imparted flavors.

I broke down and ordered some vials, glycerin and a ssteel turkey baster last night. I already have a stir plate, stir bars, large flask for starters, butane torch and star san. No pressure cooker so I guess I'll just boil everything and spray star san.

The only thing I cannot do is fit a cooler in the freezer...there's just not room as we buy in bulk and keep that puppy pretty well packed. Maybe I'll just rubber band those ice packs I get with mail order yeast around the vials to help mitigate temp variations.

Looks like I'll be banking after all. Thanks.
 
...The only thing I cannot do is fit a cooler in the freezer...
Anything that can deal with the defrost cycle will work. That is why I thought of my cups idea. In case you missed it, here is a the URL for the post.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/guide-making-frozen-yeast-bank-35891/index30.html#post2012684

It can hold 3 to 4 White labs vials. I have 2 WL vials and a 4oz medicine bottle in mine.

When I need more room, I'll just go grab a couple of Sonic Big drinks. They are thicker foam and one layer should be fine. \Then just cut them down to a lower height.
 
Passedpawn, that's exactly the kind of storage I'll be doing, thanks for posting that. Now how to convince my 9 y/o daughter to give up her purple lunch pouch, lol.

Duh, buy one with Justin Biebers face on it and she will practically beg you to trade. :p
 
Almost. I don't use that much glycerin. I attached a PDF that has an outline of my process, materials, etc. I made this for my club. It would make my day if you gained something from it.

Is it important to sterilize the glycerin? In the OP, the glycerin was sterilized in the pressure cooker. I can see StarSan'ing the snot out of the vials and tools, but the wild card seems to be the medium.
 
Is it important to sterilize the glycerin? In the OP, the glycerin was sterilized in the pressure cooker. I can see StarSan'ing the snot out of the vials and tools, but the wild card seems to be the medium.

Yes, sterilizing everything that touches the yeast is ideal.

While a pressure cooker can be used to sterilize, I have been completely satisfied with making my 50:50 water/glycerine mixture and microwaving it to a boil, then covering and letting it cool. It will cool fast because we are not talking about much volume here.

In truth, if I had a pressure cooker I'd do all this stuff the right way, but I don't. I've been watching craigslist for a big one (40qt or larger) in order to can wort for making starters.
 
Officially started my yeast bank today. 10 vile of 1056 made from a smack pack pitched to starter. My only hitch was the small plastic seals inside the vile caps shrunk while in the pressure cooker.

If I wanted to harvest some yeast from a Denny's Favorite yeast cake I have on primary now, can I just suck it right off of the yeast cake after I drain or do I need to wash it? If it requires washing I'll probably just forgo it until I use the yeast again. I did yeast washing once and it was just too much of a PITA

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