StillDragon Controller wiring questions

[specialkayme]

I posted these questions in a different thread, but figured it should be it's own thread at that point.

I ordered a StillDragon Controller and got it probably 80% assembled.

The nob on the right isn't connected yet (although I did my first soldering job, yay!, even if it looks like a 4 year old did it), and the heat sink isn't attached to the box yet, but most of the other wiring is done. I must say the instructions (https://www.stilldragon.org/uploads...ller.Kit.Build.Instructions.v1.0.20131020.pdf) aren't very helpful. I wasn't aware that I had to drill holes to secure the heat sink to the box until I wired most of this. I also didn't know I needed to drill holes for the rubber feet until everything was in the box. Probably more importantly, I assume the grease that came in the pack goes between the heat sink and the SSR, right? Nothing about that in the instructions.

There also appears to be more screws in the set than I know what to do with.

The bag on the bottom has 4 rubber feet, 4 screws and 4 nuts to secure the feet to the box, as best I can tell. There are also two additional screws in the box that were used to secure the lid of the box to the base. The top bag has two screws and two nuts that, as best I can tell, are to secure the heat sink to the bottom of the box, as well as 4 other screws that I assume are to also secure the lid of the box to the base (for 6 total screws to put the lid on). The top bag then has two additional screws that I can't tell what they go to. Any ideas? It is somewhat frustrating to have extra parts.

Thanks for the help.

 

[augiedoggy]

I posted these questions in a different thread, but figured it should be it's own thread at that point.

I ordered a StillDragon Controller and got it probably 80% assembled.

The nob on the right isn't connected yet (although I did my first soldering job, yay!, even if it looks like a 4 year old did it), and the heat sink isn't attached to the box yet, but most of the other wiring is done. I must say the instructions (https://www.stilldragon.org/uploads...ller.Kit.Build.Instructions.v1.0.20131020.pdf) aren't very helpful. I wasn't aware that I had to drill holes to secure the heat sink to the box until I wired most of this. I also didn't know I needed to drill holes for the rubber feet until everything was in the box. Probably more importantly, I assume the grease that came in the pack goes between the heat sink and the SSR, right? Nothing about that in the instructions.

There also appears to be more screws in the set than I know what to do with.

The bag on the bottom has 4 rubber feet, 4 screws and 4 nuts to secure the feet to the box, as best I can tell. There are also two additional screws in the box that were used to secure the lid of the box to the base. The top bag has two screws and two nuts that, as best I can tell, are to secure the heat sink to the bottom of the box, as well as 4 other screws that I assume are to also secure the lid of the box to the base (for 6 total screws to put the lid on). The top bag then has two additional screws that I can't tell what they go to. Any ideas? It is somewhat frustrating to have extra parts.

Thanks for the help.

I see 6 stainless screws for the 6 holes in the lid and 2 zinc screws with bolts for the heatsink to case? the two extra screws were extras likely added to keep the lid on during shipping but the kit was bagged up ahead of time with all the required screws in the bag. (in case the others fall out in transit maybe? extra screw are often included with such things.
The instructions look fairly thorough to me? they show in the picture what color wire goes where on the POT Assembly as orientated and SSR what more are you looking for?

 

[specialkayme]

The instructions look fairly thorough to me? they show in the picture what color wire goes where on the POT Assembly as orientated and SSR what more are you looking for?

What to do with the grease.
To drill holes to attach the heat sink to the case.
To drill holes for the rubber feet.

The instructions talk about drilling 1/2" holes for ventilation, but that's it. You get to the end of assembling the SSR to find out you were supposed to drill things before you started. Kinda difficult to put it on a drill press with all those wires in the box now.

 

[augiedoggy]

What to do with the grease.
To drill holes to attach the heat sink to the case.
To drill holes for the rubber feet.

The instructions talk about drilling 1/2" holes for ventilation, but that's it. You get to the end of assembling the SSR to find out you were supposed to drill things before you started. Kinda difficult to put it on a drill press with all those wires in the box now.

The grease goes where common sense told you it goes.. between the heatsink and ssr to aid in thier function as its used on any heatsink.

you need instructions on how and were to drill them? they are optional. many may choose to mount the panel on a wall and epoxy the heatsink instead.

Not trying to be difficult here but come on man. some things are often assumed as common sense especially on a DIY kit such as this.

you can also choose to just mount the rubber feet on the 4 corner screws of the cover and turn it over..

 

[specialkayme]

The grease goes where common sense told you it goes.. between the heatsink and ssr to aid in thier function as its used on any heatsink.

It wasn't common sense. It was a literal guess. I'm happy I guessed right.

But if I have to guess, to me there is an issue that should be addressed.

Not trying to be difficult here but come on man. some things are often assumed as common sense especially on a DIY kit such as this.

I don't understand why you're becoming argumentative with me for asking questions on how to install something so my house doesn't burn down.

you need instructions on how and were to drill them?

I didn't say I needed instructions on how and where to drill them. I needed instructions that I needed to drill them at all.

The instructions make no mention of drilling for placement of the sink or the feet. But it clearly tells you where to drill for the 1/2" vent holes and wire in/wire out. I read through it 5 times, was clear on the steps, and began installing. I assumed (incorrectly) that if the instructions took the time to explain where to drill vent holes, they'd take the time to explain where else I need to drill. When I noticed the heat sink was freely moving around and there as no place to anchor the heat sink, I started looking around online. StillDragon posted a video explaining how important it was to drill all holes before you begin, including where to put the heat sink and where to place the feet. That would have been something great to know before I got started. Such as in the instructions.

It's a critique. Take it as it is. Not a personal insult against StillDragon (I'd buy it again if I could). Its just critical feedback. Most companies prefer it.

 

[specialkayme]

I will say that my original post said that " I must say the instructions aren't very helpful." I don't believe that's true. Overall they are very helpful. I did 95% of the build based on the instructions. But in my opinion it left out three pieces of information that would have been helpful if they had included it.

If asking about those three things caused some type of an inconvenience or ill will toward some on here, I apologize. I was just trying to confirm something, and help the next guy that bought the controller know to drill 6 more holes before he starts.

 

[doug293cz]

Your solder joints look to be what are classified as "cold solder joints", which are unreliable. Joints that look like yours would fail inspection at any electronics assembly facility. A properly soldered wire will be coated with a thin layer of the solder, and look silver rather than copper colored. Also the solder should be smoothly filleted everywhere, and not look like blobs. I'm pretty sure you can find some instructional videos about soldering electronics on YouTube. Proper soldering technique requires heat be applied to the two pieces being joined, rather than heating the solder directly with the soldering iron. When the areas being joined are sufficiently hot, the solder should quickly wet and flow over the joint area, when the solder wire is touched to the joining members (not touched to the soldering iron.)

Brew on

 

[specialkayme]

Good deal. Thanks for the information @doug293cz I'll work on it!

 

[mongoose33]

When I solder a joint like the above, I press the solder iron to the back of the joint, and hold the solder on the front. When the joint is hot enough the solder will fill the joint, and I immediately remove the solder iron.

 

[augiedoggy]

It wasn't common sense. It was a literal guess. I'm happy I guessed right.

But if I have to guess, to me there is an issue that should be addressed.



I don't understand why you're becoming argumentative with me for asking questions on how to install something so my house doesn't burn down.



I didn't say I needed instructions on how and where to drill them. I needed instructions that I needed to drill them at all.

The instructions make no mention of drilling for placement of the sink or the feet. But it clearly tells you where to drill for the 1/2" vent holes and wire in/wire out. I read through it 5 times, was clear on the steps, and began installing. I assumed (incorrectly) that if the instructions took the time to explain where to drill vent holes, they'd take the time to explain where else I need to drill. When I noticed the heat sink was freely moving around and there as no place to anchor the heat sink, I started looking around online. StillDragon posted a video explaining how important it was to drill all holes before you begin, including where to put the heat sink and where to place the feet. That would have been something great to know before I got started. Such as in the instructions.

It's a critique. Take it as it is. Not a personal insult against StillDragon (I'd buy it again if I could). Its just critical feedback. Most companies prefer it.

I just your being a bit overly critical with your feedback is all. not being argumentative, I suppose what I see may not be common sense to everyone.

 

[mongoose33]

I look at this exchange and it's interesting to me. @AUGIEDOGGIE you helped me a lot with my build, but I came into it with a certain amount of wiring knowledge. When I was in high school, we did wiring projects to wire together a radio--resistors, soldering, wiring, all that stuff. That was a LONG time ago, but I still remember a lot of it.

@specialkayme doesn't have my background. I wired up a PID controller for my lead casting pot a few years ago, so I've done this before. And I did the electric controller panel (you helped) and it all seems to work.

I look at what specialkayme has done, and I can't really say if it's right. All I can say is that I wouldn't have done it that way, but that doesn't mean it won't work.

Meanwhile, unless you've done it before...none of it is necessarily intuitive. Soldering isn't necessarily intuitive. I was taught how to do it, and I remember, but the first time is the first time.

Now, having said that, I'm thinking that in this day and age, with youtube videos (and all sorts of other online resources) there for the taking, it's not that hard to look some stuff up and see how to do things. I learned reloading ammunition completely and utterly from the internet. No one showed me a thing. All trial and error, and when you figure you're creating small packages designed to explode inches from your face, well, it tends to focus one's attention. I figure the internet accelerated my learning curve by a factor of 2 or 3. That is, I have 10 years experience reloading, but I'm a 20-year veteran.

It's the same with electricity. It can kill you if you don't do it right. So things like how to solder, how to install a heat sink, things like that should be researched, and researched hard. I triple-checked all the wiring in my panel, and double-checked all the connections to make sure they were tight. But that's my background and my conservative nature, I suppose.

So--I tend a bit toward augiedoggy's apparent view here, which is maybe this is too much for a complete rookie to do safely and effectively.

 

[golfindia]

Youtube is garbage. 95% of what is on there is just plain wrong. 2% is just plain dangerous. If you are learning to reloading ammo and figure out ac circuitry via youtoob, up your life insurance policy.

Does anyone read books anymore?

 

[augiedoggy]

Youtube is garbage. 95% of what is on there is just plain wrong. 2% is just plain dangerous. If you are learning to reloading ammo and figure out ac circuitry via youtoob, up your life insurance policy.

Does anyone read books anymore?

It's not all garbage if you take the time to watch more than one video on a subject..and use your own judgement after seeing all the different ways and opinions on how to complete a job. Like anything everyone's approach may differ and there some terrible opinions and poor videos there for sure but many many good ones and even the comment can help weed out the bad ones.
I learned a lot of things on you tube including how to restore my stingray including building g the engine from an empty bare block also with reupolstoring the interior and all the body and paint work. Also learned a lot about electronic repair there. I've repaired likely close to a hundred flat screen TVs now building on what I learned there and I also got a lot of info for both my home brewery design and brewpub.. and yes I've read plenty of books too but depending on the content a video is much better... take for example the technic in painting a car..

As far as the OP and the kit is concerned, I think the directions are geared for someone with at least some common electronic DIY experience I agree they should make the directions easier to find so a person can view them before buying the kit after evaluating for themselves if the think it's something they fully understand.. many folks building stuff like this have at least changed a CPU heatsink on a PC at one time or know what thermal paste is.. as far as where to drill the holes and mount the feet well I'm sorry I still think that's pretty self explanatory... they go in each corner of whatever side to want to be on the bottom if you choose not to just mount it on a wall.

 

[mongoose33]

Youtube is garbage. 95% of what is on there is just plain wrong. 2% is just plain dangerous. If you are learning to reloading ammo and figure out ac circuitry via youtoob, up your life insurance policy.

Does anyone read books anymore?

I have plenty of books and other resources on reloading. When it comes to setting up a reloading tool, or using a press, sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words. And if you think I didn't confirm what I found on the web in other places when it was a major element of success in reloading, well, you would be wrong.

All you need to do is put a search term in google and most of the time you WILL find information that's helpful. If not, then your use of searching on Google needs to be refined.

 

[golfindia]

People believe evrything they see on facebook and you tube. That doesnt make it correct, or true. 90% of it is garbage. Just look at half of the 3-prong/4-prong threads here......"Looking though a bunch of videos and use your own judgement". Nope. Get a book or use reputable sources. I don't use google. Get duck duck go and figure out how to do the boolean operators yourself.

 

[augiedoggy]

just a side thought but if I really had to go out and buy a book for every time I wanted to learn what something is our how to do something I'd probably not follow through on much of it or I'd have a house full of books I wasted money on. I know a lot of the ones I do have arent worth thier weight due to outdated obsolete information

 

[mongoose33]

People believe evrything they see on facebook and you tube. That doesnt make it correct, or true. 90% of it is garbage. Just look at half of the 3-prong/4-prong threads here......"Looking though a bunch of videos and use your own judgement". Nope. Get a book or use reputable sources. I don't use google. Get duck duck go and figure out how to do the boolean operators yourself.

"People believe evrything they see on facebook and you tube."

Really? Evrything?

Maybe I'm just different, but I take everything I find on the web and filter it through my own critical thinking abilities. Does it make sense? Is it consistent with other things I've seen or read? Are there two or more views, and if so how will I resolve the disagreement?

I've read a lot of things in books that are flat-out wrong. But then, I use my critical thinking abilities all the time. I think everyone should do that, don't you?

 

[golfindia]

Yes, everything.

I.E. There are entire sections of youtube devoted to teaching people people the earth is flat and 20-30% of the people living on eath believe it is. A whole lot of messed up "critical thinking filters" out there.

 

[mongoose33]

Yes, everything.

I.E. There are entire sections of youtube devoted to teaching people people the earth is flat and 20-30% of the people living on eath believe it is. A whole lot of messed up "critical thinking filters" out there.

Just remember: because someone posted stupidity doesn't mean others are reading it, viewing it, or believing it. I've watched a (very) few videos like that just for the laughs.

And I don't really care much if others believe it. They're just the competition in my life, and they aren't much competition at that.

BTW, I edited my original post on this to indicate other online resources. I thought it was subsumed under "Youtube videos" but it wasn't explicit.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, everything.

I.E. There are entire sections of youtube devoted to teaching people people the earth is flat and 20-30% of the people living on eath believe it is. A whole lot of messed up "critical thinking filters" out there.

there are books on that too btw.. fiction or not theres a lot of information on therer and some do a better job of being able to distinquish the two I guess... have I gotten misinformation from the web? yes many times. But its helped me many more times over and Ive gotten plenty of bad advice from people directly as well. its not all that bad of a tool and when a person understands its limitations it can be more useful than many libraries full of books Ive got nothing against books... actually I have well over 100 of them filling a wall in my livingroom, and 3 bookshelves in my hall and bedroom... 95% of them have been sitting there for 10 years or more without being opened taking up space and collecting dust.. of course I dont want to toss them.. but I dont need more unless its something I really find is worth the space these days.

Google helps me decide whether a subject is really worth me researching more and then yes I may buy a book on it.

 

[specialkayme]

For the record, I searched EVERYTHING I could find on the questions I had in this thread (which was really "did I wire this right" and "where does this grease go"). I read through probably the half dozen threads I could find on the topic, both here and the StillDragon website, but I couldn't find an answer to the questions I had. I searched youtube and my answers still remained.

I didn't even know it was called thermal paste. The small packet that it came in was written in Chinese and the only english word on it was "Grease." I kept searching "heat sink grease" and "stilldragon grease" but got very few hits. None said anything about where to place it. Had I known it was called thermal paste maybe I could have found it.

As far as the heat sink anchor and feet go, I'm not complaining about that. All the photos I had seen of those that assembled it, and the instructions, all showed the heatsink installed dead center of the box. I had assumed (incorrectly) that the box had slots to screw the heatsink into. I've done plenty of wiring jobs, installing a sub panel into a home built 16'x16' storage building (made from scratch) and completely rewiring the inside of the shed (subpanel, lights, 110v and 240v outlets), rewiring outlets and switches and fixtures in the house, and other odd wiring jobs here and there (although I've never rewired an electronics device). Having never done one of these, I had no idea if the heatsink could come in direct contact with the box or not (I have no idea how hot that would get, honestly). Having to drill holes for the heatsink and feet, after the wires are already installed, was a minor inconvenience. One that could have been avoided if the instructions stated, somewhere, "drill 6 more holes before you start" so it would trigger something in my brain to say "oh wait, there aren't holes there for that" before I installed the cords, or if I had placed everything where I thought it needed to go in advance (and I realized "hmm, I don't have a spot for these 8 screws"). That's my mistake. Oh well though, I moved the stuff aside and drilled the holes anyway. Not a big deal, and honestly I don't know why I'm getting blasted for this.

In any event, I finished the wiring on the kit last night. I redid some of the soldering, and I know it isn't perfect, but I think it'll do for my own purposes.

And yes, the feet were installed

I'll install a switch to turn the power on and off in the future, and may need to monitor the heat to see if I need to install a fan.

 

[specialkayme]

Odd question: is there any way to test the SSR without the heating element?

I plugged it in (and no magic smoke, so I got that going for me), put the dial at 0, 50%, 75% and 100% and tested the other end with a voltage meter. At 100 it was reading 208v, at 75 the 208v light was weak, at 50 the 208v light was stronger than at 75 but still not fully lit, and the same at 0.

The outlet the SSR is coming from read 240v, for what that's worth.

 

[mongoose33]

Odd question: is there any way to test the SSR without the heating element?

I plugged it in (and no magic smoke, so I got that going for me), put the dial at 0, 50%, 75% and 100% and tested the other end with a voltage meter. At 100 it was reading 208v, at 75 the 208v light was weak, at 50 the 208v light was stronger than at 75 but still not fully lit, and the same at 0.

The outlet the SSR is coming from read 240v, for what that's worth.

I don't know the answer to that question.

I was looking at how the Stilldragon was wired, and not bad. Let me make a couple suggestions as to how it's done. Here's a closeup of the wiring of the relay:

Upper left connection: not sure what the stranded wire is from--there's a green wire going to the middle screw, but can't tell why that stranded wire is there. You shouldn't really see any of that--unless it just pushed too far through the crimped terminal. That kind of thing isn't very good wiring practice--something else could potentially contact it. I'd trim that off.

As far as that goes, that trimming should be done when you're dry-fitting that crimped terminal, so it isn't extending past more than a bit. The ones in the bottom left or middle right are better examples of how to do it.

Middle-left connection: not clear how well or poorly the smaller-gauge wire is connected. That could have benefited from its own terminal. Loose-looking connections like that can work loose over time.

Lower-left connection: you've left exposed wire at the left side of the plastic part of the terminal. The plastic part of the crimped terminal should cover that up. The way you did it in the middle-right connection is good.

Lower right and upper right: Spreading stranded wire is something that can work loose. That's another instance where a terminal is your friend, because once crimped into the terminal, that stranded wire isn't going to spread out and come loose.


Anyway, those are observations and my opinion. YMMV. If I were you, I'd redo them.

You're making progress.

 

[doug293cz]

For the record, I searched EVERYTHING I could find on the questions I had in this thread (which was really "did I wire this right" and "where does this grease go"). I read through probably the half dozen threads I could find on the topic, both here and the StillDragon website, but I couldn't find an answer to the questions I had. I searched youtube and my answers still remained.

I didn't even know it was called thermal paste. The small packet that it came in was written in Chinese and the only english word on it was "Grease." I kept searching "heat sink grease" and "stilldragon grease" but got very few hits. None said anything about where to place it. Had I known it was called thermal paste maybe I could have found it.

As far as the heat sink anchor and feet go, I'm not complaining about that. All the photos I had seen of those that assembled it, and the instructions, all showed the heatsink installed dead center of the box. I had assumed (incorrectly) that the box had slots to screw the heatsink into. I've done plenty of wiring jobs, installing a sub panel into a home built 16'x16' storage building (made from scratch) and completely rewiring the inside of the shed (subpanel, lights, 110v and 240v outlets), rewiring outlets and switches and fixtures in the house, and other odd wiring jobs here and there (although I've never rewired an electronics device). Having never done one of these, I had no idea if the heatsink could come in direct contact with the box or not (I have no idea how hot that would get, honestly). Having to drill holes for the heatsink and feet, after the wires are already installed, was a minor inconvenience. One that could have been avoided if the instructions stated, somewhere, "drill 6 more holes before you start" so it would trigger something in my brain to say "oh wait, there aren't holes there for that" before I installed the cords, or if I had placed everything where I thought it needed to go in advance (and I realized "hmm, I don't have a spot for these 8 screws"). That's my mistake. Oh well though, I moved the stuff aside and drilled the holes anyway. Not a big deal, and honestly I don't know why I'm getting blasted for this.

In any event, I finished the wiring on the kit last night. I redid some of the soldering, and I know it isn't perfect, but I think it'll do for my own purposes.

View attachment 594712 View attachment 594713

And yes, the feet were installed

I'll install a switch to turn the power on and off in the future, and may need to monitor the heat to see if I need to install a fan.

The reworked solder joints are better, even if not very professional looking. They do show solder wetting the Cu wires, so should hold up and function adequately.

I'm not a fan of the thermal design of the unit, but this is StillDragon's issue, not yours. The problem is it's depending on horizontal air flow thru the cooling holes and across the heatsink, when the unit is positioned as shown. Convection driven by warm air wants to go vertically, not horizontally. The cooling would be better if the unit were mounted with one set of holes on the bottom and the other on the top, and the bottom about 2 inches above any flat surface. This would at least give convection a better opportunity to cool the heatsink and SSVR.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Odd question: is there any way to test the SSR without the heating element?

I plugged it in (and no magic smoke, so I got that going for me), put the dial at 0, 50%, 75% and 100% and tested the other end with a voltage meter. At 100 it was reading 208v, at 75 the 208v light was weak, at 50 the 208v light was stronger than at 75 but still not fully lit, and the same at 0.

The outlet the SSR is coming from read 240v, for what that's worth.

No, you really need a load on the SSVR to test it (a 100W incandescent light bulb will work.) The reason you measure the voltages you do is that the TRIAC inside the SSVR is a current switch that goes from very high resistance when off, to very low resistance when on, it never shuts off the voltage (which is why you want a mechanical switch in series with the SSR.) When OFF, the TRIAC can have a leakage of a few mA, and this is enough to light the indicator lamp, when the element is not connected. A full understanding of why things are the way they are requires an understanding of Ohm's Law, voltage divider circuits, current divider circuits, and the impedance characteristics of voltage meters. If you are interested in learning about the details, I could try to put something together.

Brew on

 

[specialkayme]

I'm not a fan of the thermal design of the unit, but this is StillDragon's issue, not yours.

I've seem some photos where people have installed a computer fan in the lid right above the SSVR. Should it get hot when in use, I'll look into installing one of those.

Yes, it probably isn't the greatest design. And I can't speak to the placement/location of the heat sink or the airflow, but I've read plenty of reviews by people who have used it for years without any type of issue. And for the price point, I'm fine with it. But that's me.

 

[specialkayme]

A full understanding of why things are the way they are requires an understanding of Ohm's Law, voltage divider circuits, current divider circuits, and the impedance characteristics of voltage meters. If you are interested in learning about the details, I could try to put something together.

I'm always up for learning more, if you think I'd be able to understand it

 

[augiedoggy]

Ive yet to hear of one of these failing due to heat of design so even though we are all in agreement that the cooling seems lacking, the track record shows it works ok the way it is.
The truth is many people who look at these get talked into full pid setups or figure "while im at it".. I use temp controllers and they are nice but this will work well for what its designed for.