Mylar balloon semi-closed loop primary to keg system

[shoo]

I have a very silly idea. I generally transfer from primary to keg/secondary through filling a keg with sanitizer, pushing it out using CO2 in my CO2 tank, and using a closed loop transfer from fermentor to keg. That seems like a waste of CO2, not to mention it's kindof a pain to take my tank out of the kegerator every time I want to do that. Got me thinking if there was a relative cheap/easy way to do this bypassing the tank altogether, using a balloon filled with CO2 from the primary.

Here's what I came up with. Haven't tried it yet, may give it a go on the next batch.

Thoughts? Also, where might I find a 30-40 liter mylar or similar balloon?

 

[bradleypariah]

I like your ingenuity, but I have no helpful advice.

Somewhat related, I visited a local brewery recently, and they invited me to the back. They had a 20-foot tall (or so) tank, and it had a 5" hose coming out the top, and the other end was dropped into a 5-gallon bucket of water.
I kid you not, the bubbles coming out of that thing were violent. It looked like a Jacuzzi. With my jaw dropped, I asked the assistant brewer, "Is that CO2??" It was.
What we home brewers use to ferment in, they're using for blowoff. I cannot quantify how much CO2 was escaping into the air, but it was pounds upon pounds per minute it seemed. Not only is it a greenhouse gas, it's also valuable! It made me wonder if anyone ever tries to capture the output to reuse it for carbonation purposes.

 

[shoo]

I just did the exact same thing (saw the CO2 blowoff in a commercial brewery), and that's exactly what gave me the idea!

Here's the crazy bit, though. A 5 gallon batch of 1.050 OG beer produces something on the order of 100 gallons (about 2 lbs) of CO2. To force carbonate a beer, you need about 10-15 gallons (~.3 lb) of CO2. So to do it all, I probably need a 20-25 gallon mylar balloon.

I've seen some other threads where people tried something like this to force carbonate their beer with hand pumps, to varying levels of success. That's something I'd maybe consider if this (much more modest) experiment turns out successfully.

 

[SanPancho]

well, at first glance i think you dont really need the balloon. if you're going to put the beer into a sanitizer-filled and then co2-purged keg, why not skip the balloon steps and just use the co2 blowoff to push out the sanitizer?

you'd create a bit of backpressure on the fermenter -- but so would a mylar balloon. i doubt itd be enough to affect the yeast. as little as 1-2psi is enough to push the sanitizer out. as long as you keep an eye on things and set up some sort of airlock while the fermentation is still putting out co2 you should be contamination free. or as soon as the keg is purged just disconnect it and put on an airlock.

unless im missing something here it seems like you're making more steps and complications.

 

[shoo]

well, at first glance i think you dont really need the balloon. if you're going to put the beer into a sanitizer-filled and then co2-purged keg, why not skip the balloon steps and just use the co2 blowoff to push out the sanitizer?

A few reasons:
1) I don't usually have a keg to spare for weeks on end.
2) Squeezing the balloon to start the siphon seems handy, something I can't do otherwise.
3) Keg is limited to 5 gallons, but a balloon is limited only by my imagination.

 

[SanPancho]

1-- i'd be surprised if it took more than 24-36 hours for the sanitizer to be pushed out. a 5gal keg of sanitizer at 1-2 psi empties in what, 5 minutes?

2-- a co2 tank would also start a siphon. which you already use. if you dont want to take it out of the keezer then just make an extra hose line specifically for this purpose.

3-- kegs are limited to 15.5 gallons. (in practical terms. ) although you can definitely get larger pressure vessels if you are going to be bound only by your imagination.

it seems like you're maybe imagining huge savings in time/energy/effort by using this co2, which seems a bit far fetched in my opinion. based on fermenting in a bucket, its going to be low pressure/high volume. its not lighter than air, so it will droop, and sag and flop around, making puncture a risk. based on stats quoted above, you're gonna waste 75% of it anyways, and unless you plan on keeping it inflated 24/7 you're going to end up emptying it and "wasting" all of it.

if you just want affirmation of your desire to go buy a great big mylar balloon, well then, get your ass a big ol balloon. its still a free country, but if it turns out you got one with cartoons or disney characters on it we reserve the right to harass you silly.

except for minions. those dudes are hilarious.

 

[Nickbtag]

A few reasons:
1) I don't usually have a keg to spare for weeks on end.
2) Squeezing the balloon to start the siphon seems handy, something I can't do otherwise.
3) Keg is limited to 5 gallons, but a balloon is limited only by my imagination.

Lol! Reading this just made my day. The imagination bit was priceless. I'm sorry I have no input either way but I do like the ingenuity and creativity!

 

[shoo]

it seems like you're maybe imagining huge savings in time/energy/effort by using this co2, which seems a bit far fetched in my opinion. based on fermenting in a bucket, its going to be low pressure/high volume. its not lighter than air, so it will droop, and sag and flop around, making puncture a risk. based on stats quoted above, you're gonna waste 75% of it anyways, and unless you plan on keeping it inflated 24/7 you're going to end up emptying it and "wasting" all of it.

if you just want affirmation of your desire to go buy a great big mylar balloon, well then, get your ass a big ol balloon. its still a free country. (for the most part) but if it turns out you got one with cartoons or disney characters on it we reserve the right to harass you silly.

except for minions. those dudes are hilarious.

Oh no, I imagine no such thing. This is a silly idea that won't save me all that much time or money and is more likely to fail than not in any case. With luck, it will fail in unexpected and entertaining ways that don't ruin a batch of beer. With super luck, it'll work almost as expected and I will have a giant hello kitty balloon as an integral part of my brewery.

 

[lschiavo]

just make an extra hose line specifically for this purpose.

That's all you need. Mine was installed before I ever attached the system to a bottle of gas. Would never be without it.

The hello Kitty balloon will add to the bling but I doubt it will add much functionality...

 

[SanPancho]

With super luck, it'll work almost as expected and I will have a giant hello kitty balloon as an integral part of my brewery.

i say you call hello kitty and ask for a sponsorship-

japanese style lager, 30% red rice for a nice pink hue, and tons of el dorado for a nice candy sweet finish!

 

[shoo]

Mylar balloons purchased. We are doing this thing. Sadly, Hello Kitty was very expensive, but I did manage to find a pack of numbers for super cheap.

 

[lump42]

I like your ingenuity, but I have no helpful advice.

Somewhat related, I visited a local brewery recently, and they invited me to the back. They had a 20-foot tall (or so) tank, and it had a 5" hose coming out the top, and the other end was dropped into a 5-gallon bucket of water.
I kid you not, the bubbles coming out of that thing were violent. It looked like a Jacuzzi. With my jaw dropped, I asked the assistant brewer, "Is that CO2??" It was.
What we home brewers use to ferment in, they're using for blowoff. I cannot quantify how much CO2 was escaping into the air, but it was pounds upon pounds per minute it seemed. Not only is it a greenhouse gas, it's also valuable! It made me wonder if anyone ever tries to capture the output to reuse it for carbonation purposes.

Co2 capture is a real process, although it is complicated and expensive to setup. There is a smaller system developed from NASA tech but it isn't economical to operate.

"CO2 Recovery System Saves Brewers Money, Puts Bubbles into Beer"
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2016/cg_3.html

 

[shoo]

First proof of concept attempt: Pitched last night, was bubbling this morning (hopefully enough to have purged the keg). Stuck in the balloon. 30 minutes later, it's inflating.

This might actually work. . . .

 

[bradleypariah]

Awesome!

 

[TheHopfather]

Interesting experiment. Why the balloon though? I would just use something like this;

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/CO2-Carbon-Dioxide-Harvester-Kit.html

So you can still deal with blow off, and just route the CO2 out hose straight to a keg. Keep the pressure release valve open during fermentation and let the CO2 purge the keg naturally. My $0.02, I'd imagine your balloon idea will work as well.

 

[shoo]

Interesting experiment. Why the balloon though? I would just use something like this;

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/CO2-Carbon-Dioxide-Harvester-Kit.html

So you can still deal with blow off, and just route the CO2 out hose straight to a keg. Keep the pressure release valve open during fermentation and let the CO2 purge the keg naturally. My $0.02, I'd imagine your balloon idea will work as well.

All your questions are answered elsewhere, but to summarize and reiterate why I am not doing this with a keg:

1) I don't always have an unused keg lying around for several weeks. Case in point: I CURRENTLY don't have an empty keg available.

2) It's a pain to start a siphon with just a keg. You would have to either suck or blow gas out of the fermentor and/or keg to start it, requiring the use of a tank. It is in theory super easy with a balloon, since you can just squeeze it.

3) I spent a bit less than 5 minutes setting this up, so it's even easier setting up than the keg equivalent.

4) I can capture as much gas as the size of the balloon.

5) A balloon costs me basically nothing (found an 8-pack for under $3) and takes up no space.

6) It's an experiment! Not everything has to work perfectly, or even serve a purpose at all. I am trying a new thing. It might work. It might not. Who knows!

 

[TheHopfather]

Good luck!

 

[shoo]

Update #2: We have inflation. CO2 is now flowing through the airlock.

Next test is going to involve me pressing and fully deflating it, to reinflate it with fresh CO2 to completely purge the balloon

 

[Murphys_Law]

Dude, I like how you roll!! [emoji41]

 

[biochemedic]

Oh no, I imagine no such thing. This is a silly idea that won't save me all that much time or money and is more likely to fail than not in any case. With luck, it will fail in unexpected and entertaining ways that don't ruin a batch of beer. With super luck, it'll work almost as expected and I will have a giant hello kitty balloon as an integral part of my brewery.

6) It's an experiment! Not everything has to work perfectly, or even serve a purpose at all. I am trying a new thing. It might work. It might not. Who knows!

I absolutely love and applaud your reckless scientific abandon!

Oh, and my daughter votes for My Little Pony on the next batch of balloons...

 

[shoo]

I absolutely love and applaud your reckless scientific abandon!

Oh, and my daughter votes for My Little Pony on the next batch of balloons...

Oh hell yes, My Little Pony is high on the list.

Update #3: Tried to squeeze the balloon to purge it of the "first runnings" of air (which probably still had a lot of oxygen from the keg), I discovered something. Turns out that some mylar balloons, including the one I am using here, have a built in check valve. Air goes in, doesn't come out. Good news is that it's easily subverted with a straw. I happen to have a stainless straw or two, stuck that in there, and purged the balloon. That brings us to my next mistake.

Turns out that you aren't supposed to sanitize those little air filters, and that dunking them in sanitizing solution ruins them and prevents any air from flowing. Whoops. So for this run, we're scrapping the air filter, and just using the straw stuck in the fermentor cap and balloon with some tight electrical tape.

Good news is the balloon is refilling rapidly, probably will be full again within an hour or two (edit: 3-4ish hours later, is full again). Did I mention that the beer for this attempt has an OG of 1.084? That's gonna be a LOT of CO2 production.

If this proof of concept works well, I'm going to try to start thinking about how I can re-use this setup. I'd rather not have to kill a balloon every batch if I can help it.

 

[lschiavo]

 

[shoo]

Update: did the transfer, mostly with success. Starting the siphon by squeezing the balloon was fantastic, way easier than without. I'm calling this an all around successful proof of concept run.

 

[chris000]

I'm all for trying out new ideas, but judging from the picture you seem to live somewhere in north america, where CO2 is dirt cheap - cheap enough to not fart around with a stinky balloon.
If you need something to do, figure out how to get rid of the sanitizer in the keg.

 

[whovous]

Don't think of this as an experiment, think of it as a new way to be true to the Reinheitsgebot. Many German brewers capture the CO2 produced in the fermentation process for use on the carbonation end.
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/happy-birthday-reinheitsgebot/

 

[ancientmariner52]

For what it may be worth: Amazon lists small compressors with max output of 4500psi.

 

[Sadu]

I have been thinking of getting a spare corny and attaching an inline secondary regulator. Then keep a sugary brew going in the keg indefinitely, feeding it sugar every few days. Let it pressurise to 30psi spunding to release any excess and connect the secondary regulator to the rest of the system for carbonating and serving kegs.

I have no idea if this would work or not but I'm tempted to get a secondary regulator and give it a try.

 

[chris000]

Don't think of this as an experiment, think of it as a new way to be true to the Reinheitsgebot. Many German brewers capture the CO2 produced in the fermentation process for use on the carbonation end.
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/happy-birthday-reinheitsgebot/

I know; none of them puts sanitizer intentionally in the beer...
The Reinheitsgebot was twofold a) indirect taxation and b) preventing brewer to put unnecessary stuff into beer

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Of greater interest to me would be to use the CO2 from the fermentation to push the sanitizer out of the serving keg. I don't do the full-up approach of filling the keg with sanitizer, then pushing it out with CO2 prior to filling with beer because it quite literally uses double the CO2 since your emptying the keg twice for every 5 gallons of beer.

Why not hook the output from the fermentor to the sanitizer filled keg gas line and have the serving line open to a bucket. As the fermentation progresses, the sanitizer is pushed out to the bucket and you're ready to fill the keg when finished. Further, the serving hose is in the sanitizer so even when the keg is empty, you still have the same level of protection from nasties as you would with a blow off tube.

 

[chris000]

Of greater interest to me would be to use the CO2 from the fermentation to push the sanitizer out of the serving keg. I don't do the full-up approach of filling the keg with sanitizer, then pushing it out with CO2 prior to filling with beer because it quite literally uses double the CO2 since your emptying the keg twice for every 5 gallons of beer.

Why not hook the output from the fermentor to the sanitizer filled keg gas line and have the serving line open to a bucket. As the fermentation progresses, the sanitizer is pushed out to the bucket and you're ready to fill the keg when finished. Further, the serving hose is in the sanitizer so even when the keg is empty, you still have the same level of protection from nasties as you would with a blow off tube.

you got it!
only issue is the sanitizer. you can put a higher dose into the bucket and none into the keg if you feel you need the "protection"
I don't know why it has become the accepted standard having sanitizer in your brew. the rational that one cannot taste it doesn't go far:
you cannot taste if someone pissess in your fermenter - would you still accept it?
a bit of oxidation will not be refelected in taste - so when you cannot taste it, why bother? don't get me wrong, oxidation is a big topic, but it's not black and white as some think.
problem here is that the keg sits wet for an extended period

 

[doug293cz]

Please don't get into calling each other names, or other personal attacks. Keep the discussion and comments related to the OP (CO2 recovery & reuse, but not necessarily restricted to balloons.)

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[ETLMT]

I know that this is an old post, but I hook up my air compressor that has a filter on it and I jut push it through with plain old air.