Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[leesmith]

i call BS. haha

Why BS? It’s how I perceive their beers. Subjective.

My wife calls me an “a” hole when my son describes what I think is some far fetched invention and I instantly tell him he’s wrong.

During the course of this thread it’s been discussed Hill Farmstead’s water has a higher sodium content and part of his signature...his house flavor. While you can’t taste the salt....it effects the flavor....

During the course of this thread it has been mentioned that Treehouse has a peppery/spice taste on the finish. Nate’s signature?

I read in an interview that Nate could pick out hops/flavors in a beer without knowing the ingredients. So he has a good palate.

Not too far fetched he picked up on Hill Farmsteads signature and worked hard and continues to work hard developing his own.

Just a discussion here....trying to understand where these guys are coming from. It’s not far fetched to think professional brewers who log hundreds/thousands of hours working at their craft, work in such subtleties as how their beer presents on the palate.

 

[NJGeorge]

Hey guys, its been a while. I've been busy brewing beers for my wedding next weekend. One of the beers I brewed for the rehearsal dinner is a double IPA with 1318 but with a dash of T-58. I took a sample pour this past Friday and I do get that TH spice character. I also used all pale malt and white wheat, touch of crystal, honey and biscuit malt. I'll report back after spending time drinking it to see how it develops. On another note, the other day I was drinking a Brighttt that was from June and had cleared significantly. I have to say that their signature "flavor" has to come from some kind of malt they are using or a combo with a certain hop; even though they say Brighttt is just one or two hops and a clean American ale yeast. I actually made a yeast starter from the bottom of the can just to give it a taste and see if in fact it doesn't have any esters. Not sure if they use CBC in that beer so that might also change things, well see. Just wanted to touch base and also say thank you for all the info, help and input on this thread.

 

[couchsending]

I actually made a yeast starter from the bottom of the can just to give it a taste and see if in fact it doesn't have any esters. Not sure if they use CBC in that beer so that might also change things, well see. Just wanted to touch base and also say thank you for all the info, help and input on this thread.

Id be very interested to know what you find there. I think it would reveal a little about how they carbonate their beers.

You’d probably have to do two seperate fermentation’s and compare the attenuation of the wort fermented with Us-05 and what you harvested. I’d use actual wort to, not DME.

 

[NJGeorge]

Id be very interested to know what you find there. I think it would reveal a little about how they carbonate their beers.

You’d probably have to do two seperate fermentation’s and compare the attenuation of the wort fermented with Us-05 and what you harvested. I’d use actual wort to, not DME.

Too late, I used DME. Too bad a can of Bright was never tested..

 

[couchsending]

Too late, I used DME. Too bad a can of Bright was never tested..

You could do it with the next step no problem.

 

[NJGeorge]

You could do it with the next step no problem.

Tasted the starter after crashing in the fridge. Just tastes like non-hoppy beer. No fruit or esters that I can pick out, just clean malt beer. Hmm I still think they're using some sort of malt to give that signature taste they have. But what is it!?

 

[stickyfinger]

i'm mostly joking around. i thought the tongue descriptions were funny that's all.

Why BS? It’s how I perceive their beers. Subjective.

My wife calls me an “a” hole when my son describes what I think is some far fetched invention and I instantly tell him he’s wrong.

During the course of this thread it’s been discussed Hill Farmstead’s water has a higher sodium content and part of his signature...his house flavor. While you can’t taste the salt....it effects the flavor....

During the course of this thread it has been mentioned that Treehouse has a peppery/spice taste on the finish. Nate’s signature?

I read in an interview that Nate could pick out hops/flavors in a beer without knowing the ingredients. So he has a good palate.

Not too far fetched he picked up on Hill Farmsteads signature and worked hard and continues to work hard developing his own.

Just a discussion here....trying to understand where these guys are coming from. It’s not far fetched to think professional brewers who log hundreds/thousands of hours working at their craft, work in such subtleties as how their beer presents on the palate.

 

[couchsending]

Tasted the starter after crashing in the fridge. Just tastes like non-hoppy beer. No fruit or esters that I can pick out, just clean malt beer. Hmm I still think they're using some sort of malt to give that signature taste they have. But what is it!?

CBC-1 is a pretty clean yeast that doesn’t eat complex sugars and supposedly kills off everything else?? If that’s the case the only way you could tell if it’s in there (without a lab) would be to measure the attenuation of a starter (ideally made with wort) vs. the attenuation with US05. Probably not an experiment many feel like doing. But it would say more about the appearance of CBC-1 or F2 in their beers.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Hi HairyHop,
I ferment in kegs and had tried the 300 micron dip tube sleeve approach. I had some similar issues to you with poor transferability. My hypothesis was two-fold and not a dip tube length issue 1) needed to crash longer to settle more particulates, 2) I was spunding @ 5-8 psi during dry hopping so beer was slightly pressurized during transfer. If my receiving vessel was not also pressurized to the right level it caused churning in the dry hop keg that led to filter clog.
I switched to a clear beer draught system, keep my dry hop/ferment keg pressure below 5psi, make sure I’ve crashed for a minimum of 24h at 40F or 48h at 58F and I’ve had no issues with transfer or oxidation. I’m pleased with the results of this process but haven’t submitted my beers to competition since altering my process. Hope this helps.

did you get the available screen for the clear beer system, or do you use it unmodified?

 

[Chris-Naz]

did you get the available screen for the clear beer system, or do you use it unmodified?

Yes sir! It works well, just need to make sure you give the hops/yeast enough time to precipitate before transferring.

 

[TheHairyHop]

aha, I guess that means you go without the screen?

 

[JohnConnor]

Question for those krausening. How much did you add/how long did it take to see pressure build in your keg? Yesterday, I added, call it, 1.5 quarters (maybe a touch more) of "beer" made with DME/CBC-1. The beer was right around 1.05 and I pitched about 5g of yeast. There was definitely krausen when I poured the "beer" into my serving keg which was done around the 20-hour mark. I transferred my actual beer on top and put 10 psi in the headspace. This morning I woke up and haven't seen any increase in pressure. I've actually seen a slight decrease which has me confused a bit because I don't have a leak. Any ideas?

 

[melville]

https://castro.fm/episode/sKlQiL

 

[Rainy]

Very interesting episode indeed.
Nice to so the whole "yeast in suspension" crap debunked.
Also very interesting to see that these protein polyphenol complexes seem to be keep some non-soluable hop compounds (alpha acids, beta acids, myrcene,...) in the beer, when otherwise these compounds would never stay in the beer.
I wonder though what these protein polyphenol complexes do with terpenoids (linalool, geraniol, ...) and mercaptans, which are mainly responsible for the flavour and aroma in these heavily dry-hopped beers. Would they also make it possible to keep more of these terpenoids and mercaptans into the beer than what is normally possible?

Hoping to find some answers to this in Scott Janish's new book, although I'm guessing this is all cutting edge research, so that the results of a similar research project but more focussed on terpenoids and mercaptans is still not due for a few years.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Question for those krausening. How much did you add/how long did it take to see pressure build in your keg? Yesterday, I added, call it, 1.5 quarters (maybe a touch more) of "beer" made with DME/CBC-1. The beer was right around 1.05 and I pitched about 5g of yeast. There was definitely krausen when I poured the "beer" into my serving keg which was done around the 20-hour mark. I transferred my actual beer on top and put 10 psi in the headspace. This morning I woke up and haven't seen any increase in pressure. I've actually seen a slight decrease which has me confused a bit because I don't have a leak. Any ideas?

the decrease is most likely due to the pressurized gas in the head space absorbing into your beer. Give it a few days. It should take a week. Maybe a tad less or more

 

[couchsending]

https://castro.fm/episode/sKlQiL

I’d like to actually know what beers were tested...

 

[couchsending]

Question for those krausening. How much did you add/how long did it take to see pressure build in your keg? Yesterday, I added, call it, 1.5 quarters (maybe a touch more) of "beer" made with DME/CBC-1. The beer was right around 1.05 and I pitched about 5g of yeast. There was definitely krausen when I poured the "beer" into my serving keg which was done around the 20-hour mark. I transferred my actual beer on top and put 10 psi in the headspace. This morning I woke up and haven't seen any increase in pressure. I've actually seen a slight decrease which has me confused a bit because I don't have a leak. Any ideas?

5g of yeast is a lot! You probably only needed 1g.

I’d put more pressure on the headspace next time. I usually shoot for 20 to maintain the lid seal as long as possible. Pressure will definitley drop. I’d give it 5 days minimum.

 

[ccous]

I’d like to actually know what beers were tested...

Ones with way too much oats and things you don’t need to make NEIPA

 

[JohnConnor]

5g of yeast is a lot! You probably only needed 1g.

I’d put more pressure on the headspace next time. I usually shoot for 20 to maintain the lid seal as long as possible. Pressure will definitley drop. I’d give it 5 days minimum.

Yeah, I miss read the direction on their stat sheet. I didn't even see the "cask condition" amounts off to the side. Live and learn. I kind of figured it was pretty standard. Just wanted to check what I did didn't seem crazy or off. Thanks guys!

 

[elgee]

So, not sure if I missed it in the 258 pages of this thread, but have we confirmed what the correct amounts of each yeast are and the temps? I know there have been a bunch of experiments, but have we come to a definitive agreement on the final quantities yet? Excuse my ignorance if I missed it...

 

[couchsending]

I don’t think you’d find the correct answer in the NEXT 258 pages of this thread... In my opinion it’s still just as up in the air as it was on page 20.

 

[Hannabrew]

I did 92/5/3 based on that post by Trinity and I wouldn't do it again or if I did I would mash at 158. A step mash with that ratio brough me down to 1.005

I would likely try 95/4/1 but at that point is it even worth the effort? I'm not sure

 

[TheHairyHop]

Was there even definitive proof that it's WB-06? I thought it was just inferred based on a similar genetic pattern and the company related to the other two

 

[tld6008]

I did 92/5/3 based on that post by Trinity and I wouldn't do it again or if I did I would mash at 158. A step mash with that ratio brough me down to 1.005

I would likely try 95/4/1 but at that point is it even worth the effort? I'm not sure

I have brewed their recipe twice and finished both times at .009. My plan was also to mash at 158 next time but other than trying to get a fuller mouthfeel I think the beer is great.

 

[couchsending]

Was there even definitive proof that it's WB-06? I thought it was just inferred based on a similar genetic pattern and the company related to the other two

If its two dry strains I’d doubt there’d be any liquid yeast used. Wouldn’t make sense.

I still don’t think they’re all pitched together.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Right, I don't think it was ever 100% certain that it was WB-06, it was just that WB-06 made a lot of sense because it was close to a match and also a third Fermentis strain. Also it seems like there are a bunch of reports of a banana-bubblegum ester in TH beers, which I think thus far we're attributing to WB-06 or similar.

I also don't think they are pitching all the strains together. Either staggered pitch or finished beer blend.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm just wondering if they're using a hefe strain that isn't diastaticus. That would explain the similar but not identical pattern. I also believe that Julius isn't typically below 1.01, so they'd have to be relying on some mechanism to stop WB-06 (CBC maybe?). It just seems odd to me that they'd be playing with fire like that, unless they are pasteurizing.

 

[cegan09]

Got a variety of tree house beers recently. I have never once tasted banana in them. Bubblegum maybe, but damn it was faint.

I think people want there to be this crazy complex magical process because there is so much hype around the beers. But I'd be shocked if the reality wasn't that it's a fairly normal process.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Got a variety of tree house beers recently. I have never once tasted banana in them. Bubblegum maybe, but damn it was faint.

I think people want there to be this crazy complex magical process because there is so much hype around the beers. But I'd be shocked if the reality wasn't that it's a fairly normal process.

the analyzed beers have multiple (somewhat odd) strains of yeast in them. It's not magical. It's a lab result

 

[cegan09]

the analyzed beers have multiple (somewhat odd) strains of yeast in them. It's not magical. It's a lab result

Sure, but people are trying to nail it down to these insane ratios and timings. I just don't think they're doing that. I would believe they're mixing strains for primary, and then using something else to carbonate, or some other combination that makes sense for large scale production. But the rabbit hole of crazy methods to perfectly blend yeast strains in specific ratios seems a step too far to me.

 

[thehaze]

Is it possible to use KCl with Bru'nWater? If not, how much would you add? Is it 1:1 ratio when compared with CaCl?

 

[chieftain]

Is it possible to use KCl with Bru'nWater? If not, how much would you add? Is it 1:1 ratio when compared with CaCl?

It's not 1 to 1. Check earlier in the thread - I believe Melville or other users did a breakdown of how they compared.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Adding 1.276 g. of KCl will give you the same ppm Cl- concentration as for adding 1 g. of NaCl

 

[isomerization]

It's not 1 to 1. Check earlier in the thread - I believe Melville or other users did a breakdown of how they compared.

Mw of CaCl2 = 111 g/mol (64% molar Cl ratio)
Mw of KCl = 74.6 g/mol (48% molar Cl ratio)

1 g of CaCl2 provides 0.638 g of Cl
1 g of KCl provides 0.476 g of Cl

Therefore, 1.34 g of KCl provides the equivalent amount of Cl as 1 g of CaCl2.

 

[thehaze]

Thank you for the replies. I will give KCl a try in my next IPA. Hopefully, I will not screw it up.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Pending that I did this correctly, 2 grams added to 5 gallons of water would add 50.2 ppm Chloride and 55.5 ppm Potassium.

As to potential negatives, I haven't come across many (yet): There was a concern raised on another forum that once a level of 10 ppm potassium is reached it may begin to potentially inhibit mash enzymes. It also doesn't taste very good. KCl has been used as a salt substitute, and it generally gets unfavorable ratings for flavor when compared side by side with NaCl.

Edit: This link appears to be the source for the inhibition of enzymatic activity at 10 ppm and above.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

The way around this would be to add it post the mash. Even adding it to the sparge water would get around this drawback.

But then again, some are adding potassium metabisulfite to eliminate chlorine or chloramine, and others add it to scavange oxygen for LoDO brewing, so ... ????

 

[stickyfinger]

Pending that I did this correctly, 2 grams added to 5 gallons of water would add 50.2 ppm Chloride and 55.5 ppm Potassium.

As to potential negatives, I haven't come across many (yet): There was a concern raised on another forum that once a level of 10 ppm potassium is reached it may begin to potentially inhibit mash enzymes. It also doesn't taste very good. KCl has been used as a salt substitute, and it generally gets unfavorable ratings for flavor when compared side by side with NaCl.

Edit: This link appears to be the source for the inhibition of enzymatic activity at 10 ppm and above.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

The way around this would be to add it post the mash. Even adding it to the sparge water would get around this drawback.

But then again, some are adding potassium metabisulfite to eliminate chlorine or chloramine, and others add it to scavange oxygen for LoDO brewing, so ... ????

remind me why you want potassium in there? i bought sodium metabisulfite for brewing as i recalled reading yes ago that potassium doesnt taste good.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe the original issue here (or rather as it was when I initially introduced it, perhaps about a year ago) is (was) adding chloride without adding sodium. If using potassium chloride to meet this goal, potassium simply comes along with it. There is no desire to add potassium. And at the time when I initially conceived of using potassium chloride, no negatives with regard to potassium were known to me.

The current inquiry is not by me, but rather it is by @thehaze, and it is my understanding that his goal is limiting calcium to avoid a chalky taste. But I prefer to not speculate as to the reasoning on his behalf.

Subsequent to my initial inquiry (with some brief math, either presented here or in another thread on this forum which I introduced at about the same time) I believe that Melville and one other person (at least) who has frequented this thread began to actively use KCl, and to my knowledge they have reported general success with no negatives.

 

[couchsending]

Ever taste CaCl or Gypsum? They don't taste all that great either. I wouldn't worry about the taste of KCl as the amount
you're using I don't think would have any sort of flavor impact. You can't actually taste NaCl until the levels of Na are rather
high but it's impact on pallet fullness can be perceived at much lower levels in my opinion. I have no evidence to back this up but
with the potential negative impacts of K on the mash as has been discussed I’d just toss it in the boil. I don't even add salts to
the sparge water any more, just adjust for pH with acid and add all the sparge salts to the boil.

 

[cegan09]

I went and re-read this entire thread. All 65 (on my forum settings) pages. And I still think everyone is trying to make this out to be more complicated than it might be, while basing that on a lot of "facts" that are just theories that got repeated so much they because "facts". Good example of this, those who pass off as fact that some cans had fewer strains of yeast when it was said that early on the samples were not treated correctly as they weren't expecting multiple strains.

Let's sum up things that we know for sure about the tree house yeast.
1. There are multiple strains showing up in their cans.

That's it. I was excited about this thread early on because of the investigative work into the strains. But a few were deemed to be "it's 100% this one" based on some early tests that could be wrong. In the first few pages it was pointed out how some yeasts can look similar at the genetic level, but be vastly different. It's possible that one or more of the identified yeasts is wrong, but the same trio has been carried on for over a year.

I think it needs to be brought up that ever since Monson TH has been slammed and always produced less beer than there was a demand for. It doesn't make sense to me that they'd waste fermenter space doing different fermentation to mix back together, it would only compound production limitations. Maybe now with the larger brewery it could be an option, but it doesn't seem like the simplest option.

I think TH has had a lot of growing pains and struggled to scale up. If you look at the release rate of their curiosity series, it was a very occasional thing for the most part, right until the charlton brewery was coming online. Suddenly you had 1-2 curiosity beers a week for a while. The assumption was all of those were test batches on the new system while they tried to figure it out, many of them core offering that didn't come out right. I think they're still struggling with it as evidenced by the inconsistency. I can honestly say that the few times I've gone in the last year I have not been blown away like I used to be. I went specifically for TWSS since I'd never had it, and it didn't think it was even as good as Left hand's milk stout. The IPAs are good, but not as good as I remember. When I went a couple weeks ago I got Alter Ego and Aaalterrr Ego among others, and I swear the only difference is that regular AE was just the slightest bit less bitter. That's it.

I doubt TH will ever willingly give away their process or yeast. The mystery all helps to build the hype, like he's doing something that no one else can. I'm sure they know this and it would be foolish to shift from that. Vague answers and misdirection I'm sure are there on purpose.


I think the best things coming out of this thread aren't a definite statement of what TH is doing, but improvements that can be made at the home-brew level. Mixing yeast can add an amazing level of complexity to beer, but it comes with challenges and complications. There seems to be some good combinations in here to play with. Same for water chemistry and general fermenting and transferring practices.