FWH and No Chill IPA - hop schedule critique

[kpr121]

So I am attempting my first FWH beer tomorrow and am getting a little confused with the hopping schedule adjustments for no chill. I've read that you get perceived bitterness of a 20 minute addition with FWH, but you also have to adjust your schedule by 20 minutes for no chill. Is the no chill hop adjustment not affected when FWHing? Grain bill is based on Edworts Bee Cave IPA (Thanks Edwort!)

Comments/Suggestions appreciated for this FWH newb:


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: IPA
Brewer: Kevin
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.13 gal
Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
Estimated Color: 9.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 74.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 71.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
23.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.79 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 7.55 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.66 %
3.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.2 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (20 min) (First WortHops 10.6 IBU
3.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (20 min) (First Wort HopHops 21.8 IBU
3.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [6.20 %] (20 min)Hops 19.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 26.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 33.13 qt of water at 164.4 F 150.0 F

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I'm pretty sure FWH goes in before the boil.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/FWH

I've not heard of FWH after the boil starts. Are you thinking of Hop bursting? a beer getting all its hopping in the last 20 minutes?

 

[eulipion2]

I'm pretty sure FWH goes in before the boil.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/FWH

I've not heard of FWH after the boil starts. Are you thinking of Hop bursting? a beer getting all its hopping in the last 20 minutes?

If I had to guess, I'd say the time listed after FWH is for the sake of calculating IBU extraction. For example, I have BrewTarget setup to calculate FWH as a 20 min addition based on perception in the final product with regard to the hop flavor, aroma, and bitterness.

 

[eulipion2]

I did a SMaSH IPA with Maris Otter and Bravo using only FWH, Cube hops (I no-chill too), and dry-hop. It's absolutely delicious! The bitterness was smooth, there was a pronounced hop flavor with a touch of malty backbone.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

If I had to guess, I'd say the time listed after FWH is for the sake of calculating IBU extraction. For example, I have BrewTarget setup to calculate FWH as a 20 min addition based on perception in the final product with regard to the hop flavor, aroma, and bitterness.

Ah, that makes sense. I've also seen FWH and 60/90 min, meaning to me, they go in for the entire length of the boil no matter how bitterness it flavor is calculated.

 

[eulipion2]

First wort hops are put into the kettle before/during runoff, and remain in the kettle for the duration of the boil. Somehow the flavor and aroma (through chemical processes that I don't understand) don't give as much bitterness as a 60-90 minute addition, but provide the equivalent of a 20-30 minute addition with regards to flavor, aroma, and bitterness.

In addition, FWH provide a smoother sense of bitterness, rather than the harshness that can come from a 60-90 min.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Yep, exactly. Since FWH goes in before the boil, that's why the 20 min threw me, I hadn't seen that before.

 

[kpr121]

I guess I dont know or understand FWH enough. I basically took all my flavor and aroma hop additions and moved them to the FWH. I set the time in Beersmith at 20 minutes to approximate the IBUs, then adjusted my bittering hops (Magnum) to suit my preferences.

Nobody has come up with a great reason why this wont work well so I am going to give it a try. I'll update here when its finished.

Thanks for all the discussion. I have about 9 hours until about 8 oz of hops get thrown into the first runnings, so any late insight will be appreciated! I have been thinking about pulling a couple oz of cascade to a "cube" hop based on some suggestions here and other threads, but unless the consensus is convincing, I will go as planned above.

 

[kpr121]

Also, I typically use a mesh bag for my hops when doing APAs/IPAs. Would it be beneficial to pull the FWH hops out at a certain time (say once a boil is achieved) or should I just leave them in the entire time?

I wasnt great at chemistry but it seems like this FWH thing is so counter intuitive it makes my mind

 

[eulipion2]

Anything you would usually add at less than 20 minutes, I'd recommend moving to dry-hop after primary fermentation. If you add all those hops as FWH you're going to end up with a hop bomb!

Here's the hop chart from the "Exploring No-Chill Brewing" thread. Some swear by it (like me) others add their hops without adjustment for no-chill. It's all up to your palate.

Here's how your brew day will go:

Step 1: Heat your water;
Step 2: Add your grain;
Step 3: Add FWH to kettle (will add some bitterness, but mostly flavor and some aroma), calculate as 20-30 minute addition, and leave them in for the duration of the boil;
Step 4: Runoff/sparge into kettle;
Step 5: Bring to a boil, adding remaining hop additions per your schedule;
Step 6: Kill heat, transfer to no-chill container and seal;
Step 7: Pitch yeast when cool, dry-hop after primary for aroma additions;
Step 8: Bottle or keg; enjoy!

In your recipe are the hop additions adjusted for the chart, or is that what you put into your brewing software to get the numbers?

If your original recipe called for 20 min additions, and you want to follow the no-chill chart, add them to your kettle at flame-out. I usually put them in the cube, but that creates a lot of trub and I lose about 1/2 gallon of wort. If you do add hops to your cube, I'd recommend whole leaf hops and/or a hop sack.

 

[eulipion2]

If you and I are on the understanding each other, and I'm interpreting your schedule properly, it'll be just fine. I just put it into BrewTarget and it seems right.

Centennial & Cascade - FWH (in the kettle before the wort, out during clean-up)
Magnum & Hallertau - Boil (60 & 20 calculated, 40 & 0 actual; or 60 & 20 actual? either way works)
Cascade - Dry-hop

 

[kpr121]

euliphon2, thanks for the informative post. I adjusted my times based on the chart (subtracted 20 minutes off each addition if I would have been doing a chill). I just dont want to end up with a whole lot of flavor/aroma at the expense of no bitterness. I kinda like hop bombs!

I have also adjusted my hop schedule to have a few oz at flameout, although I am going to add these to the cornies sometime tonight when the temp has gone down a bit. One will get cascade the other hallertau to see the differences. I may adjust the dry hops too but for right now I have 1.5 oz Cascade going to each corny.

Strike water is at temp and I am starting to mash as I type.

Thanks again.

 

[kpr121]

Brew day went off relatively hitch-free. Had the wort in both cornies and all cleaned up at around 1 PM, not bad at all! I removed poppets from the gas in post, zip tied some aluminum foil around the posts, and let them sit outside overnight since it was pretty cool out.

I put 1.5 oz of Cascade in one and 1 oz of Halletau in the other about 4 hours later (temps were reading 140). I hope this wasnt a waste and that the act of fermentation doesnt drive all the aroma out, we'll see.

This morning they were down to 70 so I threw them into the ferm chamber to cool down to 63 where I will pitch at when I get home from work tonight. RWS was chugging away this morning in my 2000 ml flask and stirplate and I expect it to be at high krausen sometime this afternoon, perfect to pitch tonight.

I should also be receiving my parts from Mcmaster to build a spunding valve so I'll see if I can get that hooked up as well. I may not hook it up just yet for fear that I will have blowoff from this beer, it ended up at 1.068. But I definitely want to use it a little later in the ferment to get some free carbonation.

So far so good!

 

[harryt43]

Any update on this? I want to try no-chill, but am a hop head and worried the flavor and aroma won't quite be there.

 

[kpr121]

Hey harry, sorry I basically completely forgot about this thread.

I have never been through 10 gallons of beer faster than I did with this beer. Aroma and flavor were there, although they were improved with a bunch of dry hops (I think I did 2.5 oz Cascade in each).

I've become a complete FWH and No-Chill advocate.

Edit: Oh, and also a pressure-ferment advocate!