2x 120v 2000W elements on one controller?

[Jayjay1976]

I've been lurking for a few weeks, planning my electric brewery. So far I have built a stand, acquired an 11 gallon kettle, and identified the auberins.com ezboil module as the brains for my controller. Since I rent, I can't modify wiring but I do know there are three 20A circuits in my kitchen, so what I'm trying to figure out is would it be possible to control both elements with one controller by ganging SSRs? I know the easy approach would be to put the second element on a switch and just use it for the boil, but that feels like a workaround and I would prefer the controller handle all the switching. I also want to include a pump switch in case I ever find the money to add one. Can anyone point me to any information?

 

[ba-brewer]

I am in the process of doing a similar controller, but with 1500W elements.

This is a link to some controllers to give you some ideas. a4-simple-1 looks like what you want to do.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B3vePHEj1uiCTDNPRGZnTkUweUk

Do you really have three 20A circuits in your kitchen or just three outlets?

 

[srtce142]

Yes you can and this is how my system functions. Essentially, you need to run the output of the ezboil in parallel to both SSRs. The pump switch is no big deal since most switches can handle the current of a pump no problem. As ba-brewer stated, the a4-simple-1 schematic demonstrates how to wire this.

I run the controller off element #1's power source and the pump off element #2's power source. Never had an issue running the pump and the 2000w element at full power.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hey thanks! That diagram looks like exactly what I need!

Yes, there are two 20A breakers for the kitchen, and at some point when the dishwasher was added it got its own 20A breaker, along with a switched outlet right above it on the backsplash, and we found out by accident that the switch not only controls the duplex outlet, but the DW circuit as well. So there are two 20A outlets within 18" of each other on that wall, and another on the island about 48" away. If I had the desire to brew 10g batches I might consider building a 3 element kettle but I doubt our next place will have such a setup. It's almost as if I were destined to BIAB in this kitchen.....

 

[nobadays]

ba-brewer... great resource for PJ's wiring diagrams! Didn't know this was out there! Knew there was a thread with these but this needs to be on a sticky under electric brewing.

Cheers!

 

[ba-brewer]

@Jayjay

You have better power to your kitchen then I do, sounds like you should not have a problem.


@nobaddays
I found the link to the diagrams in the PJ diagram thread, tons of information in that thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=382286&highlight=google

 

[doug293cz]

One thing to watch out for when using two or more circuits to feed your control panel. The neutral circuits need to be kept separate. If you don't keep them separate, then you will trip the GFCI for one or both feed circuits.

Brew on

 

[Jayjay1976]

One thing to watch out for when using two or more circuits to feed your control panel. The neutral circuits need to be kept separate. If you don't keep them separate, then you will trip the GFCI for one or both feed circuits.

Brew on

Thanks for the tip! Extremely valuable advice, well noted!

 

[RichBenn]

I used a couple of 1650 watt elements to have headroom. Pump, controller, and maybe a computer plugged in. 2000 will work, but is closer to that 80 continuous figure you are supposed to observe.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I used a couple of 1650 watt elements to have headroom. Pump, controller, and maybe a computer plugged in. 2000 will work, but is closer to that 80 continuous figure you are supposed to observe.

Can you link to the elements you used? I initially chose 2000W based on a calculator that takes into account the actual outlet voltage supplied and the actual element resistance, both of which are conservatively rated. I would however sleep more soundly knowing I have adequate headroom, so long as I can achieve a strong boil. Time to reach boil is not a concern, I'm quite patient and enjoy watching the thermometer creep towards 212. I also love watching paint dry.

 

[augiedoggy]

I used a couple of 1650 watt elements to have headroom. Pump, controller, and maybe a computer plugged in. 2000 will work, but is closer to that 80 continuous figure you are supposed to observe.

That 80% continuous rule would only apply if you were going to leave the elements on at 100% power for more than 3 hours...

 

[Bobby_M]

2000 watts is just over 16 amps. A pump is less than 2amps. No reason to back off on power output when you don't have to. 4000 watts vs 3300 watts is not that big of a deal, but it would heat 5 gallons 100 degrees 4-5 minutes faster.

 

[RichBenn]

Can you link to the elements you used? I initially chose 2000W based on a calculator that takes into account the actual outlet voltage supplied and the actual element resistance, both of which are conservatively rated. I would however sleep more soundly knowing I have adequate headroom, so long as I can achieve a strong boil. Time to reach boil is not a concern, I'm quite patient and enjoy watching the thermometer creep towards 212. I also love watching paint dry.

Sorry for nor replying earlier. Go to Amazon and look for: Aiicioo 1650 Watt 120 Volt Screw Foldback Water Heater

There are ones from Denard that look the same. Also, you can get these on ebay for a couple of dollars less if you want to wait to get them from China.

After testing these (measuring using wattmeter as well as checking the cold resistance, these, and non stainless ones I had before, deliver closer to 1500 watts than 1650. The voltage drop in the loaded line has a little to do with it, as I'm 75 feet from the box. So I'll withdraw my earlier statement about having headroom, as I expect 2000 watt elements to be slightly lower as well. So if you can find or afford 2000 watt stainless and have 20 amp circuits, that'd be the way to go.

I would guess Bobby's elements are a bit better quality than these, but buying two each for both boil and HLT gets a little pricy. But they work fine, and brew great beer.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Finally started ordering parts to build a 2x 2000W controller! I'm really glad I waited, Auber just released a new variant of their EZboil, the DSPR310 which has all the features of the 300 but adds programmable step-mashing capability. Looks like the interface may take some practice to navigate, hopefully someday they will add a pc interface or micro-sd feature for uploading custom profiles.

Right now I'm looking for an aluminum enclosure that will accommodate the controller with room for two SSRs, arming switches for each element, and a pump switch. Seems like I might need to wait till I have all my parts in hand to take measurements, I don't want an oversized enclosure and I'd like it to look professional for when I sell it and upgrade to even greater automation.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm picking out plugs and cabling to make the connections between my brew controller and the elements installed in the kettle; I'd like to use a non-standard type to make it less likely someone someday might be tempted to plug an element directly into a wall outlet. I already have 10/3 cable and 20A rated plugs for power input to the controller, just want to make this thing as foolproof as possible. Any suggestions?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm picking out plugs and cabling to make the connections between my brew controller and the elements installed in the kettle; I'd like to use a non-standard type to make it less likely someone someday might be tempted to plug an element directly into a wall outlet. I already have 10/3 cable and 20A rated plugs for power input to the controller, just want to make this thing as foolproof as possible. Any suggestions?

I'm a big fan of the elements with integrated NEMA L6-30 plugs. You can also get these directly from China. No one is going to plug one of these in the wall, nor will they plug any odd-ball device into your control panel.

Brew on

 

[Jayjay1976]

This is a link to some controllers to give you some ideas. a4-simple-1 looks like what you want to do.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B3vePHEj1uiCTDNPRGZnTkUweUk

I've adapted the diagram a4-simple-1 drawn by P-J to suit the terminal layout of the DSPR310 and eliminate the second pump switch which I have no need for. The only difference in terminals between the SYL-2352 and the DSPR310 is that the SSR- moved from 8 to 6, but either way I marked this area as untested. If anyone sees any errors please let me know!

 

[doug293cz]

I've adapted the diagram a4-simple-1 drawn by P-J to suit the terminal layout of the DSPR310 and eliminate the second pump switch which I have no need for. The only difference in terminals between the SYL-2352 and the DSPR310 is that the SSR- moved from 8 to 6, but either way I marked this area as untested. If anyone sees any errors please let me know!

Looks good. Only thing I would add is that when I design, I prefer to put switches 1 & 2 on the source side of the SSR's (between incoming power and terminal 1) rather than the load side as shown. That way power is isolated from more of the circuitry when the switches are off.

Brew on

 

[ba-brewer]

My element switches are wired like yours, but on my second element I am using a on-off-on switch and use the second on position for a dedicated ON setting. That way I can heat sparge water at full power using one element and allow the ezboil to control power to a RIMS on the other element output. I am doing 5gal batches with a three vessel setup, two hotrods and a RIMS.

 

[brewn4fun]

Jayjay or anyone else can you tell me part numbers for toggle switches and element plugs/receptacles. Thanks

 

[augiedoggy]

If your house is new enough to have all those 20a outlets chances are you have a 50a 240v outlet behind your stove with would be a vastly superior choice for what your asking for here... You can do it with 120v but unless I'm mistaken it won't meet any codes due to all the separate plugs and power sources going into one control box..

 

[Bobby_M]

Codes don't deal with portable plug in appliances.

 

[doug293cz]

... You can do it with 120v but unless I'm mistaken it won't meet any codes due to all the separate plugs and power sources going into one control box..

I doubt many DIY controllers (and maybe even commercial ones) "meet code." But then, doesn't code apply to permanent structure wiring, and as long as your panel isn't permanently wired, it doesn't have to meed code. That doesn't mean that you should ignore good safety practices, however.

Edit: Bobby beat me to it.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Codes don't deal with portable plug in appliances.

That's true in some cases I guess (but not in mine).I'm plugging my 3 barrel system in at the nanobrewery and I assure you I have been told numerous times by the local inspector it needs to be up to code and inspected. I even have to give them schematics which I don't have yet. Not sure if he's misinformed but I'm not going to argue.
I was trying to point out that it's not recommended for some reason or another and would violate code if it was permanently installed.... I've never seen a single appliance myself with multiple power chords going into the same device I figured there was a reason for this.

 

[doug293cz]

That's true in some cases I guess (but not in mine).I'm plugging my 3 barrel system in at the nanobrewery and I assure you I have been told numerous times by the local inspector it needs to be up to code and inspected. I even have to give them schematics which I don't have yet. Not sure if he's misinformed but I'm not going to argue.
I was trying to point out that it's not recommended for some reason or another and would violate code if it was permanently installed.... I've never seen a single appliance myself with multiple power chords going into the same device I figured there was a reason for this.

Is that because it is a commercial installation?

If you are using two circuits to feed your control panel, it turns out that the circuitry in the control box has to be completely separate between the two circuits. If it's not, then you'll be constantly tripping GFCI's.

Brew on

 

[Alt]

If you are using two circuits to feed your control panel, it turns out that the circuitry in the control box has to be completely separate between the two circuits. If it's not, then you'll be constantly tripping GFCI's.

Brew on

Since no one has commented on my similar statement/question in the induction burner on a generator thread, thought I'd repeat it here.

Don't you still want to tie the grounds of each circuit together at the chassis? or is that not necessary/problematic when both circuits are on GFCIs?

 

[doug293cz]

Since no one has commented on my similar statement/question in the induction burner on a generator thread, thought I'd repeat it here.

Don't you still want to tie the grounds of each circuit together at the chassis? or is that not necessary/problematic when both circuits are on GFCIs?

Yes, you want to have a common ground, but technically the ground is not part of the power circuits, since no current is intended to flow thru the ground wiring. Current to ground should only happen under fault conditions. Common grounds will not bother the GFCI's, since they only measure current imbalance in the conductors that are intended to carry current. Grounds are not even monitored by GFCI's. Hots and neutrals are intended to carry current.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Is that because it is a commercial installation?

If you are using two circuits to feed your control panel, it turns out that the circuitry in the control box has to be completely separate between the two circuits. If it's not, then you'll be constantly tripping GFCI's.

Brew on

It must be?

 

[doug293cz]

It must be?

Yup. Think about how a GFCI works (a 120V GFCI is a little easier to understand, and for two 120V circuits, we only need to understand the 120V versions.) A GFCI measures the sum of the currents flowing thru the hot line and the neutral line, with current flowing in one direction considered positive, and current in the opposite direction negative, and in US AC circuits direction changes 120 times/second. If the signed currents in the hot and neutral don't add up to zero (within a 6 mA tolerance) the GFCI trips the breaker. Thus all the current in one hot line must flow back thru the neutral in the same circuit. If the circuits aren't kept completely separate in the control panel, then some of the current from one circuit will inevitably flow back thru the other circuits neutral. This will cause unbalanced currents at both GFCI's, and both should trip. As noted in my previous post, grounds don't get involved with the GFCI action, so you can, and should have a common ground.

Brew on

 

[Alt]

Thanks.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yup. Think about how a GFCI works (a 120V GFCI is a little easier to understand, and for two 120V circuits, we only need to understand the 120V versions.) A GFCI measures the sum of the currents flowing thru the hot line and the neutral line, with current flowing in one direction considered positive, and current in the opposite direction negative, and in US AC circuits direction changes 120 times/second. If the signed currents in the hot and neutral don't add up to zero (within a 6 mA tolerance) the GFCI trips the breaker. Thus all the current in one hot line must flow back thru the neutral in the same circuit. If the circuits aren't kept completely separate in the control panel, then some of the current from one circuit will inevitably flow back thru the other circuits neutral. This will cause unbalanced currents at both GFCI's, and both should trip. As noted in my previous post, grounds don't get involved with the GFCI action, so you can, and should have a common ground.

Brew on

I understand the GFCI concern.

I was referring to the fact that my plug in panels have to be inspected and meet code for some reason (likely the commercial use).

 

[doug293cz]

I understand the GFCI concern.

I was referring to the fact that my plug in panels have to be inspected and meet code for some reason (likely the commercial use).

Sorry, guess I misunderstood what your question was about.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry, guess I misunderstood what your question was about.

Brew on

Not a problem just figured I should clarify.

 

[JDAK]

Hey guys,

Using the "simple" diagram above, can anyone suggest a power switch that would switch both incoming 120v lines on/off using one switch? Sort of like the idea of an over all panel power switch so that I would be able to ensure no power is being applied until all the connections have been made. Not sure if a contactor is needed or what.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hey guys,

Using the "simple" diagram above, can anyone suggest a power switch that would switch both incoming 120v lines on/off using one switch? Sort of like the idea of an over all panel power switch so that I would be able to ensure no power is being applied until all the connections have been made. Not sure if a contactor is needed or what.

I see your concern with wanting to isolate power to the unit, I never thought about that when I built my controller. I connect everything up and ensure the element arming switches and pump switch are OFF before plugging in the two power cables. I guess you could add two more switches, contactors would be overkill IMHO.

BTW, this controller has performed flawlessly so far with more than 40 batches brewed, I've only opened it up once just to have a look at the internals but everything was fine.

 

[JDAK]

Fair enough. It does add one more component to mess with. Good to hear the setup is serving you well! What sort of enclosure did you use? Any pics?

 

[Bobby_M]

The switch type you're looking for would be called a double pole, single throw which is often abbreviated DPST. If you're using 1650 watt elements or lower, it can be rated up to 15amps. If you use anything between 2000 and 2250 watts you'll need it to be rated for 20amps just like everything else upstream.

I've argued this before, but there is very little utility in having a means of disabling each element individually. The controller will take care of limiting the total wattage. Let's say you have two 1500 watt elements for a total of 3000 watts and you wanted about HALF power. Well, you could shut one element off and run the other one at 1500/full or you could leave both element on and run the controller at 50% output. The latter solution is exactly half the watt density which is always a good thing.

The last thing to think through here is that you really don't want the power interrupt to happen before the power supply to the controller (DSPR in this diagram). If you do, you'll never be able to mess with the programming or view the probe temperature without the elements being enabled. There is no reason to shut down power to the controller itself. Mine has been powered on 24/7 for 5 years. I mean you CAN wire in a separate switch on the line powering the controller but it can be a low current switch.

 

[doug293cz]

Hey guys,

Using the "simple" diagram above, can anyone suggest a power switch that would switch both incoming 120v lines on/off using one switch? Sort of like the idea of an over all panel power switch so that I would be able to ensure no power is being applied until all the connections have been made. Not sure if a contactor is needed or what.

If you want to switch both 120V incoming circuits with one switch, a Leviton 3032 will do the job. It's DPST (double pole, single throw) as Bobby mentioned. It's rated for 30A, which is a bit of an overkill for this application, but it will work (and it's a part number I remember.) You might be able to find other DPST switches, with lower current ratings, that will also work.

Brew on