2-vessel HERMS or 3 vessels?

[TheMadKing]

So I've been really thinking about my electric brewery upgrade the past few days and I've hit the point where I need people with experience to weigh in.

I'm an experienced brewer with 100 batches of extract and 200+ batches of brew in a bag under my belt. Recently I've realized that I want a few features that propane BIAB struggles with: mash underletting, step mashing, and vorlaufing mostly.

I don't want to hear arguments for not needing any of those things please. I've been brewing for 10 years and I know what features I want at this point. Those are capabilities I want to have based on my experience and my brewing style.

So I had my mind all made up that I could do a sweet 2 vessel BIAB system with a counterflow chiller acting as a HERMS.

But then I got thinking... What's the benefit there? I will still have to clean 2 vessels, and with a 3-vessel system I would have even simpler plumbing and I can have a dedicated HERMS coil.

So people with experience, I would love to get your feedback. Is there any real benefit to a 2 vessel system vs a 3 vessel other than cost?

My budget will be pretty high when it comes time to pull the trigger so I'm more of the mind to buy the system I want, not the system I can afford.

Edit: I just thought of the fact that I would need 2 heating elements instead of 1, and a more complex controller box for 3 vessels.

 

[d3track]

Are you completely decided that you want to go with a HERMS coil vs RIMS tube?

 

[ba-brewer]

Never heard of 2 vessel herms, is that a kettle RIMS setup?

If you go for a three vessel setup you can always brew with a subset if you want or use all three vessels. I have a three vessel RIMS setup but will do a BIAG from time to time or full volume mash with 2 vessels.


edit: re-read the OP and understand the 2vessel HERMS configuration.

 

[Ahks]

I think 2 vessel herms could work like a single vessel biab+rims tube, but your wort is pumped through a coil in an hlt. It would need a second element, unless you still boil with propane, and 2 pumps

 

[day_trippr]

I imagine "a sweet 2 vessel BIAB system with a counterflow chiller acting as a HERMS" puts the BiAB in one vessel and the CFC in the second...though I'm not sure how that actually works...

[edit] Perhaps not "in the second" vessel. Given two pumps the second vessel could be a true HLT recirculating through the water-side of the CFC with a second pump recirculating wort through the inner CFC tube...

Cheers!

 

[TheMadKing]

Are you completely decided that you want to go with a HERMS coil vs RIMS tube?

Yes, I want to be able to do acid rests which seem to cause nothing but problems with RIMS systems. There's just so many "I scorched my wort" threads about RIMS systems that it seems like an eventuality that I would rather avoid entirely.

 

[TheMadKing]

I think 2 vessel herms could work like a single vessel biab+rims tube, but your wort is pumped through a coil in an hlt. It would need a second element, unless you still boil with propane, and 2 pumps

Nope your "coil" would be the counter flow chiller. The wort through one side and hot water through the other. Then when it came time to boil, just drain the HLT (since you only need about 3 gallons in there for the mash temp control) and then pump wort over and the HLT becomes the BK. That also allows you to vorlauf through the bag without disturbing your grain bed.

One heating element in the HLT/BK

Edit: Although I just realized that the lauter would be slower than normal BIAB and I would have to pick up the bag at some point anyway to get the last of the wort out and then I'd stir up all the trub... So it really kind of defeats the purpose of BIAB to do it that way

 

[ba-brewer]

It seems like if you did a brutus type system but with your C-HERMS you might be able to get what you want. It would take some switching to control the wort/hot water flow. Use a false bottom in the MT, BK to heat water to control temp, then at the end of the mash circulate between both the MT and BK. Might be a lower efficiency over your BIAG setup.

I thought I read some people don't trickle sparge water into the MT when fly sparging but just fill it up on top of the mash and drain out slow. This approach might get some of your efficiency back. I have not tried that but I have messed up the flow before and had a pretty good amount of water over the grain bed and it did not compact.

 

[TheMadKing]

It seems like if you did a brutus type system but with your C-HERMS you might be able to get what you want. It would take some switching to control the wort/hot water flow. Use a false bottom in the MT, BK to heat water to control temp, then at the end of the mash circulate between both the MT and BK. Might be a lower efficiency over your BIAG setup.

I thought I read some people don't trickle sparge water into the MT when fly sparging but just fill it up on top of the mash and drain out slow. This approach might get some of your efficiency back. I have not tried that but I have messed up the flow before and had a pretty good amount of water over the grain bed and it did not compact.

That's more or less that I was planning.. Here's a rough diagram of what I had in mind

And then when the mash is done, just move 2 hose connections and pump from the mash tun over to the BK for the boil.

I was envisioning a no sparge, since in my mind the primary time-saving benefit of BIAB is the fact that lautering is nearly instantaneous and there is no sparge.

But if I run off from the mash tun and pump over to the BK like I'm thinking, I would probably need to batch sparge in order to get any kind of decent efficiency. I do not want to fly sparge at all

 

[stevehaun]

I currently use a 3 vessel herms system - no sparge. If I were starting over, I would switch to a two vessel RIMS system - no sparge. All that said, I think your proposed approach will work great. You could save the water from your BK to use for clean up.

 

[TheMadKing]

I currently use a 3 vessel herms system - no sparge. If I were starting over, I would switch to a two vessel RIMS system - no sparge. All that said, I think your proposed approach will work great. You could save the water from your BK to use for clean up.

Why would you switch to a RIMS from a HERMS? And why 2 vessels instead of 3? What's the real advantage?

 

[BrunDog]

If I were to offer a vote: 2 vessel RIMs. Heat strike water, mash, mashout via RIMs. Boil in BK. Would need a separate chiller though.

 

[TheMadKing]

If I were to offer a vote: 2 vessel RIMs. Heat strike water, mash, mashout via RIMs. Boil in BK. Would need a separate chiller though.

I looked at that initially, but I want the ability to raise my mash temp from 105 up to sacc rest temp in the 145-155 range. Everything I've seen about doing that says they ended up with issues with their RIMS element because of the increased protein in the mash at the lower temps. Theres a big difference between going from 105 to 150, vs going from 150 to 168 in terms of wort content, viscosity, and suspended matter.

Based on your signature links, I'll add that I also have no interest in adding software automation to my brew system. I enjoy the process, and I prefer to keep things mostly manual.

 

[ba-brewer]

thanks for posting the diagram @TheMadKing, that along with previous post makes things much clearer.

What is your concern or requirement for a single element?

If you got the money and space do the 3 vessel dedicated HERMS. I would say do the design on paper that gives you everything you want. Then look it over and decide what if anything you want to compromise. ​

 

[TheMadKing]

thanks for posting the diagram @TheMadKing, that along with previous post makes things much clearer.

What is your concern or requirement for a single element?

If you got the money and space do the 3 vessel dedicated HERMS. I would say do the design on paper that gives you everything you want. Then look it over and decide what if anything you want to compromise. ​

Elegance mostly. My main original goal with the 2-vessels was to keep the time-savings of BIAB, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is already gone with a 2-vessel system if I vorlauf. I am definitely leaning toward the 3 vessel HERMS system now. The actual price difference is only about $500 (I parted out both systems this morning).

 

[stevehaun]

Now that I brew mostly no-sparge, I would switch to 2 vessels and RIMS for a smaller footprint and overall simplicity. That said, a 2 vessel HERMS would be about the same. I have no insight into your question about RIMS and raising mash from 105 to 145.

 

[TheMadKing]

Now that I brew mostly no-sparge, I would switch to 2 vessels and RIMS for a smaller footprint and overall simplicity. That said, a 2 vessel HERMS would be about the same. I have no insight into your question about RIMS and raising mash from 105 to 145.

How long does it take you to lauter without adding sparge water?

And is your mash tun water volume loss large?

 

[stevehaun]

I've never timed it but I am guessing 15-20 minutes. I have about a gallon of dead space under my false bottom.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've never timed it but I am guessing 15-20 minutes. I have about a gallon of dead space under my false bottom.

What about in the grain itself?

Without using a bag I would think your grain absorption would be huge

So I guess what's your typical strike water volume vs preboil volume?

 

[stevehaun]

I make 10 gallon batches. My grain absorption is the standard amount - slightly less than a pint per pound.
For a 12 plato beer, I mash in with about 17.5 gallons. Preboil volume is about 13.5-14.0 gal.

 

[johnwpowell]

 

[TheMadKing]

Yep I've looked at their systems and they are on the list, thanks!

 

[ttuato]

Elegance mostly. My main original goal with the 2-vessels was to keep the time-savings of BIAB, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is already gone with a 2-vessel system if I vorlauf. I am definitely leaning toward the 3 vessel HERMS system now. The actual price difference is only about $500 (I parted out both systems this morning).

Since you will be recirculating during mash why would you vorlauf?

I do a no-sparge single electric vessel with recirculating mash using a bag. I always get crystal clear wort even using with lots of flaked adjuncts. What I don't do is disturb the bag like typical BIAB until I drain the clear wort into a stainless bucket to get my preboil volume, then I remove the bag. All of the remaining wort with gunk (~0.5gal) from disturbed grain bed gets dumped. I clean the vessel and then put the wort back from the stainless bucket. The "lautering" and cleaning takes less than 15min on 10gal batches. Forget sparging - I did the math with Beersmith it costs $1.50 more for base malt on average 10gal batch to hit numbers no sparge / no bag squeeze for BIAB.

This doesn't solve the underletting but maybe can help you visualize your options better.

 

[cmac62]

Forget sparging - I did the math with Beersmith it costs $1.50 more for base malt on average 10gal batch to hit numbers no sparge / no bag squeeze for BIAB.

That's about a lb of extra grain. Then you can always do a partygyle/Small beer and you get 5 gals or free beer.

 

[TheMadKing]

Since you will be recirculating during mash why would you vorlauf?

I do a no-sparge single electric vessel with recirculating mash using a bag. I always get crystal clear wort even using with lots of flaked adjuncts. What I don't do is disturb the bag like typical BIAB until I drain the clear wort into a stainless bucket to get my preboil volume, then I remove the bag. All of the remaining wort with gunk (~0.5gal) from disturbed grain bed gets dumped. I clean the vessel and then put the wort back from the stainless bucket. The "lautering" and cleaning takes less than 15min on 10gal batches. Forget sparging - I did the math with Beersmith it costs $1.50 more for base malt on average 10gal batch to hit numbers no sparge / no bag squeeze for BIAB.

This doesn't solve the underletting but maybe can help you visualize your options better.

That's great feedback thanks!

I was thinking the lautering would take much longer without disturbing the bag. I would have no reason to vorlauf and intend to do exactly what you do. Except I would run off to the HLT/BK with a pump instead of a bucket.

You've swayed me back toward the 2 vessel idea

 

[BrunDog]

I looked at that initially, but I want the ability to raise my mash temp from 105 up to sacc rest temp in the 145-155 range. Everything I've seen about doing that says they ended up with issues with their RIMS element because of the increased protein in the mash at the lower temps. Theres a big difference between going from 105 to 150, vs going from 150 to 168 in terms of wort content, viscosity, and suspended matter.

Based on your signature links, I'll add that I also have no interest in adding software automation to my brew system. I enjoy the process, and I prefer to keep things mostly manual.

Understood on the automation... wasn't suggesting that. But RIMs: I've done all temp rests and ranges without issue.

 

[TheMadKing]

Understood on the automation... wasn't suggesting that. But RIMs: I've done all temp rests and ranges without issue.

Hmm I looked at your RIMS element and the low wattage density does seem like it would solve most of those issues.

Adding a RIMS tube does just adds another heating element compared to my C-HERMS design since I would still need one for the BK

 

[ba-brewer]

Understood on the automation... wasn't suggesting that. But RIMs: I've done all temp rests and ranges without issue.

I would like to hear how you do a protein rest. If you feel it is off topic for this thread you can post your tips or process in the link below
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/anyone-doing-protein-rest-with-their-rims.663262/

 

[d3track]

I haven't seen the issues with protein rests and RIMS, except for those who did not use ULWD elements and the proper set up to remove air pockets.

FWIW, I moved to a 2-vessel RIMS (well, the "iRIMS" system covered on the forum a while back) - with a bottom drain MT. Smaller footprint, easy to clean, similar wort loss as BIAB because of the bottom drain.

This might check most of your wants: underletting is smooth, either way with recirculating the mash you shouldn't need a vourlof, and with the right set up of RIMS tube/element/pump, step mashing should go easy.

 

[BrunDog]

I would like to hear how you do a protein rest. If you feel it is off topic for this thread you can post your tips or process in the link below
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/anyone-doing-protein-rest-with-their-rims.663262/

I use a special UWLD RIMS so it may not be a fair comparison, but I did previously use a regular 1375W foldback without issue. THat said, I think you should always:
1. Have the tube vertically oriented.
2. Have the temp sensor right at the top.
3. Make sure the flow is at least 2 gals per minute.