Countertop Brutus 20

jkarp · Aug 29, 2009

I've NEVER dropped below 70%, and grist seems to have a bigger impact than gravity. I got mid seventies on the last barleywine I did, but 72% on my last wheat. I'm actually doing a raspberry wheat this weekend so it'll be interesting to see how it does.

jabbles · Aug 29, 2009

HarkinBanks said:
I am building this system with two 120v 2000kw elements right now. I plan to only use the second heating element (not connected to the PID) to get up to a rolling boil and then unplug it. From my research, the other 120v 2000kw (which is hooked up to the PID) will keep a good boil going for about a 6.5 gal boil. You really only need the one 120v 2000kw element (connected to the PID) during the mash and recirculation. I don't have 240v service anywhere in my house, so I didn't have a choice and I think this is the easiest way to put this system together.

You just plug the "extra" heating element into the wall? No need to run it through the controller?

HarkinBanks · Aug 29, 2009

jabbles said:
You just plug the "extra" heating element into the wall? No need to run it through the controller?

Yes, the only time you need it is to get to a full boil, so you don't need to control it through the PID. It isn't needed during the strike, mash and recirculation. Depending on your house wiring, you may need to plug it into a different circuit. Make sure everything is GFCI. I used GFCI switches in the control box and will plug into GFCI outlets.

z987k · Sep 4, 2009

jkarp said:
[*]Does the high watt density element scorch the beer? - No! I've done everything from pils to barleywine on this system and have never seen or tasted a hint of scorching.

This really intrigues me because I built a boil kettle out of a sanke and a high density 3800W 240V element and it scorched the **** out of my beer. A very distinct offensive smokiness was the result. I still have it and use it as a HLT, but I have never considered boiling boiling wort in it again because of how bad it scorched.
I wonder if 1500W high density element is a low enough watt density that it doesn't scorch or what. Maybe a 2000W HD element will? Something people need to consider because I guarantee a 3800W HD element will.

jkarp · Sep 4, 2009

Well, a 7" 2000W HD element has about 170 watts per square inch, and a 11" 3800W HD has about 210. Doesn't seem like a huge difference to me. I wonder if something else contributed to the smokey flavor...

Just ran rough numbers on a propane burner and it's worth noting that even a small 55,000 BTU one is putting nearly 100 watts per square inch into the bottom of the kettle.

The Pol · Sep 4, 2009

jkarp said:
Well, a 7" 2000W HD element has about 170 watts per square inch, and a 11" 3800W HD has about 210. Doesn't seem like a huge difference to me. I wonder if something else contributed to the smokey flavor...

Just ran rough numbers on a propane burner and it's worth noting that even a small 55,000 BTU one is putting nearly 100 watts per square inch into the bottom of the kettle.

Of that 55000 BTUs tough, how much is being lost? Is this based on the assumption that 100% of the heat is being applied?

jkarp · Sep 4, 2009

The Pol said:
Of that 55000 BTUs tough, how much is being lost? Is this based on the assumption that 100% of the heat is being applied?

No, I calculated at 60% efficiency into an 11" dia pot. Works out to right at 100 watts per sq inch.

z987k · Sep 4, 2009

jkarp said:
Well, a 7" 2000W HD element has about 170 watts per square inch, and a 11" 3800W HD has about 210. Doesn't seem like a huge difference to me. I wonder if something else contributed to the smokey flavor...

Just ran rough numbers on a propane burner and it's worth noting that even a small 55,000 BTU one is putting nearly 100 watts per square inch into the bottom of the kettle.

Well I did consider that and did do another 3 gal test batch but again it was smoky. The only difference in technique ever being was the sanke+element for a boil kettle.

You almost got me wanting to do it again, but I hate wasting 4 hours for worthless wort. Maybe I'll boil some sugar at 1.040 for an hour.

jkarp · Sep 4, 2009

That's really weird. Now I wonder if there really is a relatively narrow watt-density demarcation for caramelization in wort. I positively can't stand smokey beers so I'd definitely notice even a trace in my beers.

z987k · Sep 16, 2009

I really want to figure this out. I am looking at parts online and I see 4500W low density elements that are 11.75" and that's 382W/in. Where the 2000W elements are 10 11/16" and 187W/in. Then the 6000W element(which i would like to use) which is nickel based instead of zinc, and 22 5/8" so 264W/in.

Based on my previous experience of an apparent threshold somewhere below 210W/in it looks like the 6000W LD element may still scorch the wort. However I don't think this is really true, because I have seen these used and they don't. I think there must have been something else going on in those beers. Still related to the different method and equipment used but not directly related to the high watt density element.
Correlation != causation right.

cyberbackpacker · Sep 16, 2009

z987k said:
I really want to figure this out. I am looking at parts online and I see 4500W low density elements that are 11.75" and that's 382W/in. Where the 2000W elements are 10 11/16" and 187W/in. Then the 6000W element(which i would like to use) which is nickel based instead of zinc, and 22 5/8" so 264W/in.

Based on my previous experience of an apparent threshold somewhere below 210W/in it looks like the 6000W LD element may still scorch the wort. However I don't think this is really true, because I have seen these used and they don't. I think there must have been something else going on in those beers. Still related to the different method and equipment used but not directly related to the high watt density element.
Correlation != causation right.

Just trying to help you out here, and not knocking you, but I believe your calculations are rather elementary, and do not take into account the thickness of the elements and are giving you numbers that are not reflective of the true watt density/sq inch. Again, not knocking you.

When looking at water heater elements there are three basic varieties: high density (HD), Low Denisty (LD), and Ultra Low Density (ULD). High Density elements are 150 w/in2 and ULD are 50 w/in2. I cannot recall right now the breakdown of a plain LD element.

Nevertheless, if you want to use a 6000w element, as long as it is ULD you will be fine. The high wattage elements people are using are all ULD.

The most common I have seen is the 5500w ripp element. The cheapest place seems to be here: Camco 2963 5500W 240V Ripp Element - Plumbing & Heating - Plumbing Appliances & Accessories - Water Heater Repair

Good luck.

z987k · Sep 16, 2009

cyberbackpacker said:
Just trying to help you out here, and not knocking you, but I believe your calculations are rather elementary, and do not take into account the thickness of the elements and are giving you numbers that are not reflective of the true watt density/sq inch. Again, not knocking you.

Yes, I know the calculations are very elementary. No where do any of these say what their actual surface area is so I had no way of calculating the actual W/sq in. Using the linear inches still establishes a reference point.

bakins · Sep 16, 2009

z987k said:
I I see 4500W low density elements that are 11.75" and that's 382W/in.

Not really. Most low density elements loop back on them selves, so multiply the length by 4 (look at the pictures of one). Not exact, but a decent enough approximation:

4500w / (11.75 * 4) = 95W/in

HarkinBanks · Sep 17, 2009

For what it's worth, I just tested my new e-kettle with two 120V/2000W HD elements tonight (same as JK's element). I did a 5 gal sugar water boil. I hit a full boil at 29 minutes, turned off one of the elements and maintained a decent boil for 60 minutes with one element. I had exactly 10% boil off at the end and absolutely no scorching. I cooled a sample and it looked clear, smelled fine, and tasted like, well, sugar water. This certainly backs up JK's experience with his 2000W HD element.

cyberbackpacker · Sep 17, 2009

z987k said:
Yes, I know the calculations are very elementary. No where do any of these say what their actual surface area is so I had no way of calculating the actual W/sq in. Using the linear inches still establishes a reference point.

Not all sites list the wattatage, but I have seen several. The site I linked to actually does list the wattage per square inch on their HD and ULD elements. So 150 in2 and 50 in2 is accurate for a HD and ULD respectively.

Good luck!

:mug:

BrewBeemer · Sep 17, 2009

I'm surprised that your pump has not had any windings cooling problems in that bucket, it needs some ventilation with fresh air as it is making heat in that bucket. The system overall is simple and clean, I would only use ULD elements for that 50 watts sq/in.

jkarp · Sep 17, 2009

BrewBeemer said:
I'm surprised that your pump has not had any windings cooling problems in that bucket, it needs some ventilation with fresh air as it is making heat in that bucket. The system overall is simple and clean, I would only use ULD elements for that 50 watts sq/in.

There are ventilation holes in the top and bottom sides of the bucket if you look closely.

ULD would be great but nobody makes 120V 2KW ULD elements. I've had no issues at all with the HD element, fortunately.

CodeRage · Sep 17, 2009

Watts/(length*diameter*pi) would give you a better Watts per square inch.

You could install two 4500W ULD elements in parallel, that would give you 2kW 4xULWD.

Saccharomyces · Sep 19, 2009

I love the elegance of this system. Farking awesome. I'm definitely gonna have to try a setup like this with my system.

Nice thing about this system is assuming your conversion efficiency is near 100%, you can calculate your efficiency a-priori as the wort loss in your system + grain absorption; like you said it's really independent of gravity, since the only variable is the absorption % of the grist.

Assuming 95% conversion efficiency, 1qt of loss in the lines and pump, and .12 gal/lb absorption a typical 5 gallon batch with 10# of grain would yield 73% efficiency into the fermenter. That seems to match up with your numbers.

bakins · Sep 20, 2009

Saccharomyces said:
Assuming 95% conversion efficiency, 1qt of loss in the lines and pump, and .12 gal/lb absorption a typical 5 gallon batch with 10# of grain would yield 73% efficiency into the fermenter. That seems to match up with your numbers.

95%+ conversion efficiency is pretty easy to get.

I've been arguing with myself I if I want to do something like this or just go all brew-in-a-bag. BIAB has the plus of less equipment, less grain absorption, and no losses, but you have to worry with a large hot bag and have a really big boil kettle. I already have pumps, etc...

I like this system alot, though. I've always liked using gravity to drain a MLT.

BrewBeemer · Sep 22, 2009

jkarp said:
There are ventilation holes in the top and bottom sides of the bucket if you look closely.

ULD would be great but nobody makes 120V 2KW ULD elements. I've had no issues at all with the HD element, fortunately.

I bet the March pump company would deny a motor replacement if they saw those 4 small vent holes at the top of the bucket not alone what is at the bottom of the bucket. I wish you all the best on the windings going the distance
for the price they are asking for them.

jkarp · Sep 22, 2009

The built-in fan on the pump combined with the vent holes works just fine. Believe it or not, there are crazy homebrewers out there who actually brew outdoors in 100 deg weather! Which, coincidentally, is about the same temp as is in the bottom of the bucket during operation.

Do you honestly have a dedicated, JC controlled, cooling system to maintain "optimal" operation temps for your pump? Dude, they're not that fragile (or expensive).

You do realize what application these pumps were designed for, right? (Hint: it's not homebrewing.) Oil your pump as specified in the owner's manual and it'll last you far, far longer than the 1-year warranty.

HarkinBanks · Sep 22, 2009

So I brewed my first beer on this system this past weekend. Lots of learning still to do. The BK worked flawlessly, my recirculation system still needs some tweaks that I am working on. I have set up my system to do 5 gallon batches. The nice thing I have learned is that I will be able to fill my 8 gallon BK with my total water volume, heat it to strike temp, pump strike water to my 10 gal MLT, mash and then recirculate. I don't have to do any water additions, making things a bit more simple.

One question for JK though, did you do any testing with heating the "mashout" water to higher than 170? With my larger water volume it takes a really long time to recirculate and get my MLT temp back up to anywhere near 170. I was thinking of trying 175 degree water for the recirculation next brew.

Oh, regarding the pump, I have no qualms about putting it in a bucket inside my 70 degree house. Those pumps are heavy duty. I made several vent holes near the pump and at the top of the bucket. I agree with JK, putting it outside in 100 degree weather is just about as taxing. During recirculation you can take off the lid on the bucket to let even more air in.

BrewBeemer · Sep 22, 2009

jkarp said:
The built-in fan on the pump combined with the vent holes works just fine. Believe it or not, there are crazy homebrewers out there who actually brew outdoors in 100 deg weather! Which, coincidentally, is about the same temp as is in the bottom of the bucket during operation.

Do you honestly have a dedicated, JC controlled, cooling system to maintain "optimal" operation temps for your pump? Dude, they're not that fragile (or expensive).

You do realize what application these pumps were designed for, right? (Hint: it's not homebrewing.) Oil your pump as specified in the owner's manual and it'll last you far, far longer than the 1-year warranty.

I have no problem with March pumps since the last pair went with the last old brewery I sold. Had one within 3 weeks with shunted windings to ground and replaced free, the second the impeller was just a hair too tight and would not rotate until some polishing with 1,200 grit took care of that problem. Priming was a problem I can do without hence I do not own a March pump now or for the future brewery build. The 1/10 HP Little Giant with 1" inlet at end center kicks butt and passes big lumps even with a mistake on my part as well primes every time. March is a good pump its that I switched to Little Giant and will never switch back. Hell the March pump was mounted on a camera tripod ball to position 360 degrees in any direction once as a test thinking it was me the problem. Was loaned a Little Giant from a fellow brewer, success case closed as I only purchased one pump so the price came out even plus trouble free service. JMO's and results here.

leboeuf · Sep 22, 2009

I don't own any march 809's but I doubt a 1/25 hp pump can generate enough heat to maintain high enough temps to kill itself within a vented 5 gallon bucket.
A quick temperature measurement would lay this to rest?

I've used other march pumps in a lab setting where they were being constantly blasted with 110F+ air from a compressor pump fan and they were fine for the 3 years I worked there.

jkarp · Sep 22, 2009

HarkinBanks said:
One question for JK though, did you do any testing with heating the "mashout" water to higher than 170? With my larger water volume it takes a really long time to recirculate and get my MLT temp back up to anywhere near 170. I was thinking of trying 175 degree water for the recirculation next brew.

For my 4 - 4.5 gal pre-boil volumes, it usually takes 30-45 minutes for the system to recover to 170. I can totally believe that larger mashes could take considerably longer tho. I can't see any problem with starting with hotter water for the mashout. I'd bet you could even start with boiling and stir it in at the beginning of recirculation to distribute and quickly bring the mash up to temp, then have the PID "hold" at 170 for the rest of your desired recirculation time.

jkarp · Sep 26, 2009

Live brewcast on the Countertop Brutus 20 tomorrow morning. Details here!

mrallison83 · Oct 13, 2009

this system intrigues me.

HarkinBanks · Oct 15, 2009

I don't think I can post a pic so here is a link to a pic of my Countertop Brutus 20. I absolutely love this system.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_S6DGhbXzhIw/SstY6g5GBSI/AAAAAAAAAhE/FSajarARb6Q/s1600-h/-1.jpg

Many, many thanks to Jkarp for all of his help and guidance getting this together. I could not have built the system without his help. A truly great guy. I am sure he is tired of all of my Pm's by now.

jkarp · Oct 15, 2009

That's AWESOME!

:mug:

Countertop Brutus 20

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