Brewery Concept - Planning Stage Please review

Hey all, I am in the process of planning out my next brewery concept since I sold my old rig. Take a look below and at the end I have concerns or issues.. If you see something that could be a problem let me know so I can take a look at it and see if theres somethign I can design out of the system. THANKS!!
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Square1 Concept:

Square1 will be 2 vessel electric HERMS with cross circulation. I am intending to make it the simplest system possible that is just complex enough to satisfy my desire for control.

The idea started with the Brutus 2.0 and evolved with my need to brew in my basement room that will be my bar/brewery (whenever I get some money!)

I wanted something that would only require the control of one heating element, and to consoidate equipment a stainless immersion chiller will act as the HERMS coil and as the chiler. Below is a crude diagram of the free standing system:



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The General Process is as follows:

Step 1: Fill the mash tun with exact amount of water needed for mash (typically 1.33 qt / lb of grain in my recipes). Then fill the boil kettle with the calculated amount of sparge water to reach the desired pre-boil volume. From here the electric element in the boil kettle will be set for mash target temp and both pumps will run. The pump attached to the mash tun will push the mash water through the herms coil gaining heat and back into the mash tun.

Step 2: Once the temperature has stabilized in both vessels then dough in will happen and the Kettle will remain at mash temperature for the duration of the mash. Once mash is complete it will be set for 170 mash out temperature. After that temperature has been reached the cross circulation can be started.

Step 3: Cross circulation occurs. The water from the boil kettle gets pumped into the mash tun and the wort from the mash tun gets pumped into the kettle. This continues until gravity has reached equilibrium in both vessels. At that point the kettle pump is shut off and the mash pump drains the mash tun wort into the kettle and the heat up for boil is started.

Step 4: The boil runs normally in the kettle. Towards the end of the boil the HERMS coil becomes the chiller and it is inserted for sterilization. The boil finishes and the cold water is turned on for chilling.

Step 5: At this point the normal brew day stuff happens, transfer wort to fermentation vessel… aerate.. pitch.. etc.



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Panel Build:

My intention is to use the “1 PID 30a BIAB Kit” from ebrewsupply.com and a 400x400x200 enclosure. For PID and Timer I want to use the Auber Instruments controllers. I want to run the thermocouples into a Stainless T on quick connects so I can measure the temperatures coming out of the Mash tun to control the element in the kettle, and then switch back for the boil.

Kettles:

I am hoping to use a 20g Blichmann kettle with the BoilCoil (when it comes out) as the boil kettle, and a 15g Boilermaker kettle with false bottom as the mash tun. Eventually I would like to have a hop blocker if it works with the boil coil. Below each I want to mount a stainless head chugger pump.

Plumbing:

The plumbing will consist of stainless tri-clamp fittings and silicone tubing ½” ID.

Benefits:

I see the benefits of this being fairly simple and somewhat cheaper since theres only 1 element to control and 2 kettles instead of three. It can be done much cheaper if I cant buy the blichmann stuff and use my existing kettles. (But a guys gotta dream).

Drawbacks/Concerns:

Since theres only one element I see the first step of getting all the water to temp before mashing to be the longest step of the entire process. This isnt necessarily a drawback as the brewery will be in my finished basement so I can watch TV / or shoot pool while I wait.

The other problem I see is keeping temp during mash but I think if I just build the thermocouple into a stainless T that I can swap from vessel to vessel I can fix it. (That’s how I did it on my Brutus 10 clone.)

What other potential problems or issues do you see that I can head off in my design process? This project will likely take me 12-18 months with the biggest drawback being SWMBO not giving me any of my money!

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this but if I understand you correctly you're going to pump wort into your combination brew kettle / HLT while sparge water is still in HLT? So in other words, you're going to just keep blending until you reach your pre-boil gravity?

Basically yeah, Lonnie Mac probably does a better job explaining it than I do. Go to www.alenuts.com and check out Brutus 2.0 discription

It is an interesting concept. My first reaction is it seems like it's going to make an already long day even longer. Also Lonnie talks about the PH levels rising, but it is more like 5.5 and not 6 which wouldn't take long to reach. What he doesn't mention is that it is not only PH but oversparging in general can result in tannin extraction.

Let me think on this a bit more. I like the idea, don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash it down but I'd hate for you to spend all the time and money and end up with something that doesn't produce some kick ass beer!

Your idea would work well. I do think you're kind of inbetween ideas, however, and you might want to think hard on which one you actually want. I feel with how you're going you might wind up dissapointed because you have the bling and cost of a traditional 3v HERMS, but the functionality of a Brutus 20 (with a fancier mash temp method). Do you want it simple or do you want bling?

If I use my existing stuff I can build the setup for roughly 700

Had a little discussion and we think you are going to have a lot of issues with tannin extraction but also your efficiency is going to be pretty awful because you are trying to rinse sugar with sugar and eventually you are left with some wort but it is going to leave a lot of sugar in the grain still. I know Lonnie doesn't care about efficiency but in the real world you're just pissing away money and more importantly: time. If you are adamant about a 2 vessel system then I would be thinking about a tankless heater for sparging.

jcaudill said:

Had a little discussion and we think you are going to have a lot of issues with tannin extraction but also your efficiency is going to be pretty awful because you are trying to rinse sugar with sugar and eventually you are left with some wort but it is going to leave a lot of sugar in the grain still. I know Lonnie doesn't care about efficiency but in the real world you're just pissing away money and more importantly: time. If you are adamant about a 2 vessel system then I would be thinking about a tankless heater for sparging.

Click to expand...

Search the forums for no-sparge brewing. There are a lot of us. Typically 70-75% efficiency for most people. $1 in base grain vs an hour longer brew day.

Just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it right. Sorry it is not meant to be rude I promise. But as I pointed out above it goes way beyond the efficiency which depending on system size will add up over time. Tannin extraction is a real and likely possibility. But I come from a commercial background. I do ask myself: what is the benefit to building this type of system if you just end up with lower efficiency? What's the upside? Marginally less up front cost?

It was just a concept that sounds fun.. Worst case scenario I dump the boil kettles sparge water into one of my converted coolers from my old system and fly sparge a more conventional way.

That works - just making sure you have some reasonable alternative. I am all about fun but I can tell you as someone who invested a lot of money and time trying to be innovative, I wish I would have spent it making beer. I lost 2 years of time. That is my perspective.

I should have thought about this earlier but The Pol already built this system..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/kill-watt-brewery-build-compilation-158348/