I'd like to learn how to clean and sanitize properly....but I need some help with it.

I think things are straightforward when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing.....but the whole thing can get out of hand....due to all the info out there on cleaning material, ways of cleaning....and also depending on what equipment we wanna clean.

Now.....my problem is that I cant clean nor sanitize as well as I should.

First thing first.....cleaning:
So far.....I have used my normal washing-up liquid....which is apparently an error. So....what shall I used then? Please, dont recommend American brands that are not available in Europe, but type of detergents I can probably just get from the shelves of a normal supermarket in Spain.
One guy (Hector thanks) recommended Acid-Anionic Detergents which I have never heard of and I dont even know what they are....because even google hardly gives me info on them.

Now.....once I have found the proper detergent.......I am wondering how I can use it? I mean how do I apply it...simply with a sponge, scrubbing the equipment gently? But then how do I clean the places that are difficult to reach....taps, inside of tubes? Do I just run a warm water containing the detergent through them for a few minutes?

After all this....I gotta sanitize.

So far....I think I am going for an iodine based sanitizer. The brand is called “Betadine scrub”...I dont know if you guys have heard of it. Here is the data sheet on it....it is used at surgeries...no comment on that. This is what is available at a decent price form a pharmacy. It has Povidone-iodine but at 7.5% concentration.....if my calculation is correct....using a 500 ml bottle, I can prepare up to 300 liters (79.2 gallons) of sanitizer out of that at 12.5ppm, but one thing concerns me.......it contains 7.5% of povidone-iodine...then what is the rest? I went back to the pharmacy.....it has 4 chemicals in it plus water....I guess it is the regular iodine based product then that everyone uses in the USA, right? No need to worry?



To summerize all the above mentioned:
1- I need to understand what Acid-Anionic Detergents are so that I could find a local brand and buy it. Or simply find CLEANING detergent that works.
2- I need to learn how to CLEAN brewnig equipment and how to clean hard-to-reach places like inside of taps and tubes
3- Can anything that contains 7.5% of providene-iodine be an effective sanitizer? (I will have to make it 12.5 ppm for it to be effective....I know that. I am more worried about the other things that are in the iodine product....but it is a scrub type of iodine...so it should be good for sanitizing)
4- iodine sanitization means 10 minute of contact and then I just shake the liquid of the equipment and use it immediately? Or does it have to get dry 1st?

I would start here.:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/what-sanitisers-cleaners-used-43688/

Find yourself some sodium percarbonate (OxiClean is the brand name in the U.S., but you should find this stuff readily available, I would think.) Give everything a good long soak in this stuff and you can use as a general cleaner. This stuff should be your go to cleaner.

I actually mix 3 parts sodium percarbonate to 1 part sodium metasilicate (Red Devil TSP-90 is a US brand). This mixture is my go to cleaner (or can just use 100% sodium percarbonate too).

As far sanitizing agents, I would research the link above and maybe contact some local breweries or wineries and see what they use. I think the iodine you found is a step in the right direction, a lot of people in the states use something called Iodophor, hospital grade sanitizer. I've used it, it works great.

RmikeVT said:

I would start here.:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/what-sanitisers-cleaners-used-43688/

Find yourself some sodium percarbonate (OxiClean is the brand name in the U.S., but you should find this stuff readily available, I would think.) Give everything a good long soak in this stuff and you can use as a general cleaner. This stuff should be your go to cleaner.

I actually mix 3 parts sodium percarbonate to 1 part sodium metasilicate (Red Devil TSP-90 is a US brand). This mixture is my go to cleaner (or can just use 100% sodium percarbonate too).

As far sanitizing agents, I would research the link above and maybe contact some local breweries or wineries and see what they use. I think the iodine you found is a step in the right direction, a lot of people in the states use something called Iodophor, hospital grade sanitizer. I've used it, it works great.

Click to expand...

I have just found 100% Na2CO3 (which is sodium percarbonate) online in a local store...and it is dirt cheap.

Are you saying that I should use it mixed with water and let my equipment sit in that mixture for some time and after that dry it or just shake the liquid off and sanitize in the iodine solution?

I don't think you want straight sodium carnbonate... you want some sodium percarbonate too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

The oxiclean msds (http://www.ahprofessional.com/_downloads/msds/MSDS-1605-OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover.pdf) lists 30-45% sodium percarbonate and 50-75%
sodium carbonate.

You can often find similar stuff in the laundry section of the store as an "oxygen cleaner".

The sodium metasilicate (TSP90) (http://www.reddevil.com/msds-tds/msds_0261_0265.pdf) can often be found in the hardware store as a degreasing cleaner.

The mix of 70% Oxiclean and 30% TSP90 is thought to mimic the composition of a commercial brewery cleaning product called PBW (Powder Brewery Wash) (http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWMSDS5.pdf http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf) which is 30% Sodium metasilicate.

And yes, mix up a batch in warm water and let your gear sit in it overnight and most of the cleaning is done for you! Don't use on aluminum but on stainless and glass is fine. It's great for removing labels from bottles, too.

I've found that sometimes a light residue can form on glass if left in the solution for too long, but it easily rinses off. Usually the phosphoric acid based sanitizer (star-san http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech5.pdf) that I use gets rid of the residue.

It can also discolor clear vinyl tubing but supposedly submersing in boiling water will take care of that. I haven't bothered... I just use the hazy tubing.

You can also sanitize with bleach buffered with vinegar:
http://www.brewplus.com/forum/threads/report-on-sanitizing-using-a-bleach-and-vinegar-solution.3617/

jtratcliff said:

I don't think you want straight sodium carnbonate... you want some sodium percarbonate too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

Click to expand...

Yeah, You are right....sorry, I linked and talked about the wrong product.
Is the sodium metasilicate sold in liquid form? I have only found this one: http://riesgoquimica.com/sodio-silicato-liquido-p-4339.html This has the formula of Na2Si3O7....might not be good.

I think there might be liquid sodium metasilicate... The stuff I buy is in powdered form and is near the paint in my hardware store. You can use it to degrease prior to painting.

Well, I'm glad to see your interest in this is so persistent. You already have a one up knowing that there is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing. So let's get started.

The two most common cleaners I've seen for home brewers are Oxi-Clean and PBW. They are oxygen based cleaners and take time to do their job. You said you were worried about clean hard to reach spots such and taps and hoses...taps can be disassembled and hoses can be cleaning simply by siphoning your cleaning agent and returning the "out" end of the hose into your cleaning agent and allowing it to soak. There are other, more potent, cleaners that can get the job done in a few minutes. I fortunately have access to caustics at the brewery I work at...perhaps meet with your local brewery and see if they can help you? These chemicals are pretty dangerous if you don't know how to handle them so I don't know if they would, who knows maybe if your lucky they would offer to clean some of your equipment for you?...unfortunately cleaners can only do so much, eventually you will have to inspect you equipment and put some elbow grease into it, go out and buy some scouring pads or other plastic abrasive.

Now that cleaning is out of the way you can sanitize. Anything the wort/beer touches post boil must be clean and sanitized.

There are four main sanitizers I've seen home brewers use. Acids (star San), iodophors (iodine based), bleach solutions, and hot water soaks (180 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter). Bleach is starting to making its way out the door due to the nuisance of rinsing with hot water afterwards (bleach will cause off flavors). So you are left with three readily available sanitizers. Star San and iodophors can easily be purchased either from your local home brew shop or an online retailer such as Midwest Supply. Both are effective when mixed properly, I prefer iodophors, but it is your choice and preference. I believe instructions for both recommend 2-3 minutes contact time to ensure proper sanitization. And sanitizing hoses and taps are the same as if you were soaking them in cleaner.

Overall, go buy some PBW or Oxi Clean (or go make friends with a brewer) to get your stuff clean. You don't need some pharmaceutical grade sanitizer, save the money and get some Star San or iodophor.

Exportjo said:

Well, I'm glad to see your interest in this is so persistent. You already have a one up knowing that there is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing. So let's get started.........

Click to expand...

This person's problem is that they live in Madrid, Spain so the brand names chemiclas we are used to seeing and using OxiClean, PBW, Iodophor and StarSan aren't readily available. He/She needs the formulas & chemicals to find similar products.

jtratcliff said:

I don't think you want straight sodium carnbonate... you want some sodium percarbonate too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

The oxiclean msds (http://www.ahprofessional.com/_downloads/msds/MSDS-1605-OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover.pdf) lists 30-45% sodium percarbonate and 50-75%
sodium carbonate.

You can often find similar stuff in the laundry section of the store as an "oxygen cleaner".

The sodium metasilicate (TSP90) (http://www.reddevil.com/msds-tds/msds_0261_0265.pdf) can often be found in the hardware store as a degreasing cleaner.

The mix of 70% Oxiclean and 30% TSP90 is thought to mimic the composition of a commercial brewery cleaning product called PBW (Powder Brewery Wash) (http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWMSDS5.pdf http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf) which is 30% Sodium metasilicate.

And yes, mix up a batch in warm water and let your gear sit in it overnight and most of the cleaning is done for you! Don't use on aluminum but on stainless and glass is fine. It's great for removing labels from bottles, too.

I've found that sometimes a light residue can form on glass if left in the solution for too long, but it easily rinses off. Usually the phosphoric acid based sanitizer (star-san http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech5.pdf) that I use gets rid of the residue.

It can also discolor clear vinyl tubing but supposedly submersing in boiling water will take care of that. I haven't bothered... I just use the hazy tubing.

You can also sanitize with bleach buffered with vinegar:
http://www.brewplus.com/forum/threads/report-on-sanitizing-using-a-bleach-and-vinegar-solution.3617/

Click to expand...

^^ What this guy said!

You might want to try out some spanish homebrew sites eg

http://www.masmalta.com/153-materias-primas

I assume the esterilizador section is sterilizer?

Exportjo said:

Well, I'm glad to see your interest in this is so persistent. You already have a one up knowing that there is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing. So let's get started.

Click to expand...

I can get sodium percarbonate....which is basic oxiclean.
Then I can also get iodine based products to create my own sanitizer.

As another person suggested....for me what causes the problem is that I live in Spain....and LHSs and hobby brewers know very little. Ceaning/sanitizing here means you soak your equipment in oxyclean....that's it. It is scary how little homebrewers know here.

Thanks for the information.

billl said:

You might want to try out some spanish homebrew sites eg

http://www.masmalta.com/153-materias-primas

I assume the esterilizador section is sterilizer?

Click to expand...

I have 3 locals LHSs....and their knowledge is this: "use active oxygen to clean/sanitize and that's it". You might think I am kidding....but that's it. They didnt even know that I was supposed to let the equipment dry.....I am better off asking here and trying to survive on my own. So far it is all good.....bought Povidone-iodine from a local shop...that's the sanitizer and got 1 kilo of sodium precarbonate to use as my cleaner.

These ARE US brands, but they give contents, and I'll give my experience.
BasicA I think is sodium percarbonate. PERcarbonate, not carbonate. I like this one most. Dissolves quickly.
B-Brite. Na(sodium) Percarbonate, Na Carbonate and Na silicate. I HATE this one, as the silicate does not dissolve and leaves behind particles.
1/One Step. 'Containes Percarbonates. This one is OK, but upon dissolving in warm water, it gasses. Is this gas the extra oxygen, which is the actual cleansing agent??? Is it being lost???Dunno.
See: John Palmer's excellent books; I think he offers one edition free, online. He is a metallurgist, so can guide you in cleaning metalware. You should buy his latest ed., see Amazon, maybe 1/2 price.
And, yes, I am a chemist.

Bleach and Vinegar? I read the link and it claims that it's safe, but oh boy, I'm wondering if you're just one spill away from a chemical accident when mixing that.

I have used bleach after I had an infection, and the bleach/water ratio I used was the one that's intended for scrubbing your kitchen - that is, a lot of bleach. Took some thorough rinsing, but I suppose better safe than sorry.

I keep my equipment clean by rinsing it out immediately after use and storing dry. When it's time to brew again I pull it out and sanitize with one of those products that you say aren't available in Spain. However, most products are available online. Have you tried amazon? Failing that, do you have brew pubs in the area? You could call and ask to speak to the brewmaster and ask what they use to clean and sanitize. Most craft breweries are more than happy to help. I prefer not6 to use clenaers that were not made specifically for thre brewint industry.

AlCophile said:

These ARE US brands, but they give contents, and I'll give my experience.
BasicA I think is sodium percarbonate. PERcarbonate, not carbonate. I like this one most. Dissolves quickly.
B-Brite. Na(sodium) Percarbonate, Na Carbonate and Na silicate. I HATE this one, as the silicate does not dissolve and leaves behind particles.
1/One Step. 'Containes Percarbonates. This one is OK, but upon dissolving in warm water, it gasses. Is this gas the extra oxygen, which is the actual cleansing agent??? Is it being lost???Dunno.
See: John Palmer's excellent books; I think he offers one edition free, online. He is a metallurgist, so can guide you in cleaning metalware. You should buy his latest ed., see Amazon, maybe 1/2 price.
And, yes, I am a chemist.

Click to expand...

My idea is to create homemade PBW or OxiClean.

Agreed. John Palmer's book is great...I keep going back to it on this topic too. I am kinda happy with the online version, but I might order it too.

I looked up sodium metasilicate and the chemical formula is Na2-Si-O3. The liquid product you referred to is Na2-Si3-O7, also a sodium silicate and related chemically, but with a different molecular structure, and likely different properties.

More information here: Sodium Silicate Wiki

I used water for cleaning and Chemipro for sanitaze. This is my secony batch. Did I go wrong with water?

Dozzi said:

I used water for cleaning and Chemipro for sanitaze. This is my secony batch. Did I go wrong with water?

Click to expand...

Join the club. I have used the same method for several batches.....then came the surprise.

Water...ok. Chemi....ok....but this is just your cleaning part. Where is the sanitization?
You need to find something to sanitize your equipment with.....I have decided to use an iodine solution. Will test it in 2 days.

By the way......your beer might be totally fine.....but in my case, several batches went wrong after bottle-carbing was over, meaning the problem was in there but below my flavour threshold....and it just got worse and worse. Another 2 batches went wrong in the fermentor too.....so, I didnt even have to bottle them, but that was fusel alcohol...100%. I dont know if bacteria or wild yeast can cause that though....can anyone experience comment on this one?
Fusel alcohol might be from oxidization......meaning that the chemipro got into my bottles, but then how did fusel alcohol recently appear in my fermontor.....I doubt chemipro is to blame for that too. I let my equipment get dry.

I clean my bottles with oxyclean, dry, cover with aluminum foil, and sterilize in the oven 350* for an hour.
This way I can do it whenever I want, they are sterilized indefinitely until the foil is removed.

oh yeah! I totally forgot about heat sterilization... Some folks use their dishwasher. Slide the bottles over the little tines and run the drying cycle. Then they bottle right from the dishwasher...

There's a thread here some where about that.

ETA:

Here's Revvy's bottling thread... 2nd post shows bottling on open dishwasher door after sanitizing bottles with dry setting:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/

Everybody has their own method for processing bottles. Here's mine;
1. When the bottle is emptied, I rinse it out twice, or more if required til rinse water runs clear.
2. Look into the bottle in front of a strong light and verify there's nothing stuck inside.
3. Place the clean, wet bottle upside down in the dishwasher 24 hrs, until dry.
4. Store dry bottles on an empty case, closed to prevent accumulation of dust.

THE DAY BEFORE BOTTLING

1. place the bottles upside down in a dishwasher. Run through a full cycle including sanitize.

THE DAY OF BOTTLING
1. squirt with sanitizer from a Vintator
2. Fill
3. condition
4. Drink
5. Go to step 1

You have to be careful with the dishwasher method though, some of them don't get hot enough to sanitize. I used mine on my first batch and I suspect that one of my bottles had an infection, it didn't taste bad it just had something weird floating on top of the beer.
I love the oven method because it requires no sanitizer, bottle tree, or vinator, and I can do it a month ahead of time if I want.
It's a very flexible process.

It seems like it would be annoying and fiddly to cut out all the little foil squares for a bunch of bottles when using the oven method.

How would you compare it to dealing with a sanitizer solution?

I typically mix up a 5gal batch of sanitizer and submerge 12+ bottles at a time in the bucket. I pull a bottle, dump the sanitizer and fill for the bottling bucket. While the 1st bottling is filling I grab and dump the next bottle with my other hand.

Once my little assembly line uses all the soaking bottles, I load up the sanitizer bucket with bottles again, cap the already filled bottles, then start over.

Cutting all the foil squares isn't so bad, it's a lot easier with scissors instead of the cutter attached to the box.

It cuts a lot of time off of bottling day since all I have to do is remove the foil and fill the bottle.
The way you explained it you have to stop after 12 bottles and add more bottles to the sanitizer, plus I'm sure you're dripping that sanitizer all over the place.

The way I do it I have all my bottles ready to go, they're dry, I fill all of them and set a sanitized cap on top of each one until they're all filled, then I press all the caps on all at once.
There's very little clean up aside from a little foil.

The first time I bottled I used sanitizer and the dishwasher as a bottle tree, it wasn't so bad, but once I tried the oven method I was hooked.

But if your method works good for you, don't stop.

Oh, yeah... I drip all over I do 6 gal batches so that's a lot of bottles. Seems like I only have room for 12 or 16 bottles before I have to cap and move 'em out of the way of my bottling bucket anyway. So it doesn't seem too bad when I'm in the process. Although I have to admit, it's very helpful when one of my kids reloads the sanitizer bucket with more bottle

I'm always looking for ways to save time so I like to hear compare and contrast from folks who have done it several ways.

Sorry for the threadjack

I started using autonomist3k's oven-autoclave method a few batches back when I first read this, and I'm a believer. Although I only give them 20-30min at 300 degF. Nothing on earth can live past about two or three minutes on glass at that temp anyway, even 250 would be safe technically. I don't bother with scissors on the foil, just tear off little chunks as you go, it's faster than you think and it all gets baked anyway.

Why sanitize when you can sterilize?

And fortunately my entire batch of foiled bottles fits in the oven at once. So it's a bottling-morning process, then I take them out and let them cool before filling. This method can't bring the entire process up to sterility though, there's still a weak link because the bottle caps still need to sit in star-san or their plastic seals will melt. Overall though, this method instills a lot of confidence versus what can be a nagging worry.