Beer Smith and overhopping

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JLem

JLem

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I posted a thread over in the recipes forum and there seems to be some confusion about how hoppy the brew is going to be - the numbers I came up with using Beer Smith seem much lower than other people would expect.

Has any one had this problem? Am I missing something? Am I using Beer Smith incorrectly? And most importantly, am I going to have one hell of a hoppy stout?
 
They all are right, IMO. 3 oz of hops in a regular 5 gallon batch boiled for 45 minutes seems a little unorthodox to me.

You wrote: "I used BeerSmith and this recipes gives an estimated IBU of only 27.3, which is towards the low end for this style. This is the first recipe I created using BeerSmith so I didn't think to question it. Should I have?"

which might be correct, I calculate it at 55.5 using beertools, but the amount of hops you've boiled for that amount of time is going to produce some strong hop flavors regardless.
 
If I increase the boil volume in BeerSmith I can get the IBUs up to the 50s. But I only did a partial boil ~2.5 gallons and then topped up to 5 gallons. COuld this be where the confusion is?
 
Honestly, the boil size can affect the IBUs, but not by much. No matter how small or large (2-5 gallons) I make the boil, again this is in Beer Tools, I stil get between 45 and 55 IBUs, which is a good amount of bitterness...

What I'm trying to say is, 3 oz of hops are a lot for a 5 gallon batch, especially if brewed for 45 minutes...

IMHO, though, I think the beer will be fine, hoppy, but fine...

Like IrregularPulse's signature says, ""There are no mistakes in brewing - there are only limited-edition specials"."
 
I posted this same question last week. Set your bitterness scale to Rager (Tools/Options) and you will get IBU numbers that agree with Beer Tools and Strange Brew.
 
I was having the same exact issue last night working on my porter recipe in BeerSmith. I used a kit and on its paper work it stated the IBU's would be around 27 (I think) and when I added the hops to the ingredient list BeerSmith said it was way lower than that.

I'll give Captain's suggestion a try. Thanks for the info!....:mug:
 
Captain Damage said:
I posted this same question last week. Set your bitterness scale to Rager (Tools/Options) and you will get IBU numbers that agree with Beer Tools and Strange Brew.
Click to expand...

+1 to this...check the scale it's being calculated with.

On that topic, is one of the scales more common than others? Or something of "the standard"? When a brewery (e.g. Rogue), prints the IBU of their beers, which scale are they most likely using?
 
A lot of it is the issue from partial boiling without a late addition of extract. You're making a very thick and concentrated wort that makes for much less hop utilization. If you're in beersmith and you split up the amount of extract into two loads and tick the "add after boil" button for one of them, you'll see your IBU's shoot up.
 
yermej said:
+1 to this...check the scale it's being calculated with.

On that topic, is one of the scales more common than others? Or something of "the standard"? When a brewery (e.g. Rogue), prints the IBU of their beers, which scale are they most likely using?
Click to expand...

I dunno what scale Rogue uses but, I think, Tinseth is the most common.

There was an interesting podcast some time ago on Basic Brewing network regarding each of these scales and actual test results. You should give it a listen.
 
I'll try switching the scale when I get home tonight - I had no idea there were different scales for IBUs - I thought IBUs were IBUs.

Damn, I was so happy with the way the recipes seemed to be coming out and was proud of the fact that I used Beer Smith to "craft" it myself. I'm not a big hops guy, so I hope this doesn't turn out too bitter for me. I'll really have to make sure it ages for a while. :mad:

Thanks for all the input.
 
Partial mash:
1 lbs Amber Dry Extract
4 lbs Pale Liquid Extract
1 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1 lbs Roasted Barley
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked
3.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (45 min)
Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast

It is not about the scales Tinseth vs Rogers.
It is about your hop utilization. I encountered the same problem when I first use Beersmith.
The reason that you need 3 oz of EKG is because BeerSmith is assuming you are putting all your extracts at the beginning of your boil.
The isomerization of thick/sugary wort is not that effective if you have a small boil volume too. whats your boil volume? Partial boil would hurt your IBUs, while full boil with 6+gallons would match with any AG method.

You will need to do tricks to utilize your hops more effectively. e.g. late extract addition or first wort hopping.

Good luck... Remember, all those IBU readings is just a scale for us to be on the same page with different procedures.
 
I am having the opposite problem, BS is giving me 95 IBUs in a recipe that is actually only 73 IBUs... all volumes, boil off and losses are equal. I give up.
 
I'm pretty sure Jamil quotes all of his recipes (like in Brewing Classic Styles) using the Rager forumla. For what thats worth.
 
Maveric777 said:
I was having the same exact issue last night working on my porter recipe in BeerSmith. I used a kit and on its paper work it stated the IBU's would be around 27 (I think) and when I added the hops to the ingredient list BeerSmith said it was way lower than that.

I'll give Captain's suggestion a try. Thanks for the info!....:mug:
Click to expand...

Was this an Austin kit? I entered their London Porter and the IBUs were way off. I had Beersmith set at a 2.5 gallon boil. When I convert it to 5 gallons the IBUs matched. I emailed them and it turns out the recipe was for a 5 gallon boil even though it didn't state it.
 
undallas said:
so what scales do most people use here? Tinseth? Rager? or Garetz?
Click to expand...

Rager. This is what Zainasheff uses, and I think it did fairly well when they compared calculated values to true, lab-measures values if I recall that Basic Brewing Radio episode correctly.
 
The other odd thing I don't get about BeerSmith is when it gives me results like this:

1.0 oz Simcoe (12%) - 60 min - 26.0 IBU
0.5 oz Simcoe (12%) - 10 min - 4.7 IBU
0.5 oz Simcoe (12%) - 5 min - 2.6 IBU

Bitterness: 48.6 IBU

Shouldn't the whole = the sum of the parts?

I'm doing partial boils too, so if anything, the final IBUs should be adjusted down, not up.

Edit: Oops, clearly I had this thread open awhile before responding to it. What The Pol said.
 
undallas said:
Partial mash:
1 lbs Amber Dry Extract
4 lbs Pale Liquid Extract
1 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1 lbs Roasted Barley
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked
3.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (45 min)
Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast

It is not about the scales Tinseth vs Rogers.
It is about your hop utilization. I encountered the same problem when I first use Beersmith.
The reason that you need 3 oz of EKG is because BeerSmith is assuming you are putting all your extracts at the beginning of your boil.
The isomerization of thick/sugary wort is not that effective if you have a small boil volume too. whats your boil volume? Partial boil would hurt your IBUs, while full boil with 6+gallons would match with any AG method.

You will need to do tricks to utilize your hops more effectively. e.g. late extract addition or first wort hopping.

Good luck... Remember, all those IBU readings is just a scale for us to be on the same page with different procedures.
Click to expand...

I did add the extract all at the beginning of the boil. I did a partial boil of only ~2.5 gallons. I have this all set-up in BeerSmith. So, is the 27 IBUs it spit out accurate? :eek:
 
OK, I just got home and messed around with Beer Smith. If I change the Bitterness Formula to Rager, my recipe gives an estimated bitterness of 46.1 IBUs. If I switch it to Garetz or Tinseth (the default) I get somewhere near 27 IBUs.

This is a HUGE difference. What's the deal? The "Style profile" bitterness doesn't change when I switch between the formulas, so my brew is "in range" (and low) for this style when using two of the formulas, yet out of range (high) when using the third.

Can anyone help explain this? :confused:
 
JLem said:
OK, I just got home and messed around with Beer Smith. If I change the Bitterness Formula to Rager, my recipe gives an estimated bitterness of 46.1 IBUs. If I switch it to Garetz or Tinseth (the default) I get somewhere near 27 IBUs.

This is a HUGE difference. What's the deal? The "Style profile" bitterness doesn't change when I switch between the formulas, so my brew is "in range" (and low) for this style when using two of the formulas, yet out of range (high) when using the third.

Can anyone help explain this? :confused:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I cannot use BeerSmith right now due to the fact that I cannot get it to compute IBUs anywhere close to the other brewing softwares. Also, on none of the other softwares do I get such a HUGE difference between Tinseth and Garetz.... I agree, something is amiss.
 
I use Rager formulation with BeerSmith and I hit the IBUs almost dead on for the BYO and Brewing Classic Styles/Jamil Show recipes I enter to mess around with.

Maybe it's a software version/build issue? I'm running v1.40 Build 037. You can find this info in the Help menu -> About BeerSmith.
 
Maybe we should get a basic extract recipe and have everyone put it into their software of choice and see where we are at. I had no idea there were different methods for calculating the IBU's and I'd feel much better if we were all on the same page before we discuss recipes.
 
Yes,
Go to the Options Command, Tools Menu and click on the bitterness tab. From there you can change the equation (Rager is often used by extract brewers, but Tinseth is the default for most all grain brewers).

Cheers,
Brad
 
mmb said:
I use Rager formulation with BeerSmith and I hit the IBUs almost dead on for the BYO and Brewing Classic Styles/Jamil Show recipes I enter to mess around with.

Maybe it's a software version/build issue? I'm running v1.40 Build 037. You can find this info in the Help menu -> About BeerSmith.
Click to expand...

I'm using the same version and build.

I just plugged in a kit recipe I made for my first batch - "Holiday Red Ale". It is quite a low bitter brew. With the Tinseth calculation, I only get ~12 IBUs, with Rager I get ~20 IBUs. I think I'm probably too new at this to tell the difference between 12 and 20 IBUs - all I know is that it isn't bitter.

Here's the recipe for Holiday Red. All extract added for full boil in only about 2 gallons of water.

2 lbs Light Dry Extract
4 lbs Pale Liquid Extract
10oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L
3.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt
1.00 oz Glacier [5.60 %] (48 min)
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (8 min)
 
Well, here's my plan.

The owner of my LHBS is BJCP certified. In a few weeks when my oatmeal stout is bottled, I'll bring him one and ask him his impression of the hop level. Then I'll know which calculation to use.

Anyone else try running that Holiday Red Ale extract recipe (see above) through some software/calculations yet?
 
I'm using the same build so I won't bother I guess. Now I'm worried that my Stout has more like 65 IBU's rather than 40
 
Interesting thread. I generally use the HBD Recipator (The Beer Recipator - Home), and get similarly disparate values at LONGER hops in times. 33 or 54 for JLem's recipe. I moved the hop in times to 30 minutes, and the range is a lot closer. Interesting.

Anyhow JLem, I look forward to what your LHBS guy says.

I'm you'll find that with the 1# of roasted barley and the 3oz of KG you will have a pretty bitter brew. Hopefully the mild fruitiness of the WLP004 and some sweet residual malts will show up to even things out. It might age really well, and you should try serving at different temps too, to highlight different characteristics.

I bet I would love that stuff. :) RDWHAH ... maybe someone else local wants to trade?
 
I agree this is confusing.

They should state IBUt or IBUr to differentiate which scale is being used.
 
I still cannot get the same IBUt between BeerSmith and three other software applications. The other three are within a few IBU... I still cannot figure out why BeerSmith, after about 12 total hours of trying, isnt close.

I am not buying it for that reason alone... but it is just frustrating. Everything else I liked about it basically, but the IBU thing is pretty important.
 
I did the Tinseth Calculation by hand and Beer smith ended up being off by less than 1 IBU.

I used the Utelization Function Palmer suplies in How to Brew (Not the Chart)

I had a 1.044 Boil of 3.5 gallons.
4.1 AAU @ 40min, 20min, and 10min.

My math came out to 13.2+9.1+5.4=27.7

Beer Smith gave me 28.0 Tinseth.

Did I get my math wrong?
 
JLem said:
I'll try switching the scale when I get home tonight - I had no idea there were different scales for IBUs - I thought IBUs were IBUs.
Click to expand...


+1. Right there with you buddy. I've read a lot about homebrewing and the only scale I ever heard of is the tinseth. That's the only one I ever read about anyway. Now I'm confused. When following a recipe does it really matter? If I add x amount of x %AA hops into x gravity boil it produces x amount of bitterness right? I can see how it might be a problem when formulating a new recipe though.
 

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