AG brewing taste differences, in general?

I've got my AG kit list finalized, just have to wait til Aug 1st when the Ministry of Finance will allow my big purchase!

All I can do til then is ponder AG brewing, which led me to this question...

What should I expect taste-wise? I've made some darn tasty extract brews, but really, I can tell they're from extract. There's just that little *something* that gives it away...it's not bad, it's just there. Will I get a cleaner taste profile? Will it be the digfference between made-from-scratch bread and a store bought loaf? I hope so! Is this why you brew AG?

You will get a much cleaner flavor profile. You will also no longer have that "extract taste". The two most noticeable improvements in my homebrewing was starting to make yeast starters and switching to all grain.

The dominant flavor in your beers will no longer be extract but rather it's whatever you put in it. You get wayyyyy more control over the outcome of your beer and you can also make truly unique creations. I had sever PM batches come out tasting strikingly similar to previous batches using the same extract. It definitely adds time to the mix but it is well worth it.

You'll also notice that your beer will start to taste more professional. A lot of my extract beers were fine for homebrew but I would never expect to order one in a pub. You'll get beers with all grain that are just on a higher level than the extract brews.

Not to down too much on extract beers, its very possible to make awesome extract beers, its just a little trickier and I get consistently better results with all grain.

Good luck!

The taste from extract, is somewhat maltier in my opinion. The AG is crisper and cleaner. I even think the aroma comes through nicer in the AG. My first 4 beer batches i did were Extracts, the last 15 have been AG and i will never go back. The reasons mentioned above for one, but the cost is another. I get my 55 lb bag of 2 row for 30 bucks. Cost is a big reason. After recycling the yeast and using grains and bulk buying the hops, the average cost per batch is 17.00 for 2 cases of beer.

12 lb grain 6.50
2 lb special grains 5.00
50 bottle caps 1.00
3 oz hops 4.50
yeast 5 if new 0 if recycled.

I notice the grainy taste more with AG. Sometimes extract batches taste, or come across, as sweeter or maltier to me, even when the hydro says they're fully attenuated, but these differences are often subtle. I still do extract, partial and AG myself. I have the most fun doing AG when I have the time, but the thing that made the BIGGEST difference in quality was temp control and paying attention to yeast health.

in my opinion, yes AG tastes much better. and yes it's like your example of homemade bread vs. store bought. The biggest thing about AG brewing is that YOU control what goes into the beer. With extract you have to rely on someone else to extract the the wort from the grain. Then they either dry it or boil it down to a syrup. but what grains were used? no one really knows. once you learn about the how different grains will taste in the final product, you can custom tune a recipe to get the exact flavor you want.

Really? I wouldn't expect to taste much difference if ANY at all. It is the same process as when you are using extract, you just get more room to customize your beers with temps. So I would accept the arguement that your beers might come out drier...but that is if you choose it to be that way.

So yes it will taste different since you have more freedom, but saying "extract beers taste worse than all grain" as a general rule is not valid.

I noticed a big difference in the flavor for all grain as well.

When we recently did a taste test for an arrogant bastard clone, 6 people tasted and 5/6 could tell there was something very different about the extract version, they said it was good, but has a weird flavor to it. This was a blind taste test including brewers and non brewers.

For my AG brews, head has improved with all grain. Styles like wit and hefe are crisper and much different tasting. Porters and stouts have been unreal. There is just a freshness about AG brews IMO vs. extract.

I am glad I only did like 9 extract batches before switching to AG.

Price is vastly different. I do 10G batches only and by capitalizing on bulk grain and bulk hops my most expensive AG batches (IPAs) are like 36$ for grain and hops; for hefes, 18$. 36 or 18 bucks for 4 cases of brew!?! My extracts were about $1 a beer at best for IPAs.

hmmmm .36 a brew or $1 + for extract IPA's?.....

Germelli1 said:

So yes it will taste different since you have more freedom, but saying "extract beers taste worse than all grain" as a general rule is not valid.

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I wouldn't say extract tastes worst. It just tastes what I thought home brew would taste like - not commercial brew. With all grain some brews are unreal, fresh, commercial quality.

I am not saying great extract can't be made, just saying most of the extract brews do have a different noticeable flavor IMO. IPAs were an exception to that rule for me. Too bad extract IPAs cost the same to brew as they do to buy!

CidahMastah said:

I wouldn't say extract tastes worst. It just tastes what I thought home brew would taste like - not commercial brew. With all grain some brews are unreal, fresh, commercial quality.

I am not saying great extract can't be made, just saying most of the extract brews do have a different noticeable flavor IMO

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That probably has more to do with fermtation temps than anything. I noticed a huge difference in my beers when I switched to all grain, but that was also the time I began using starters and controlling fermentation temps. I have since brewed extract batches in my apartment at school where I can't have propane, and none of them came out with the same "Extract twang" I used to attribute to extract.

I may brew a side by side mild brown ale extract and all grain and do some blind taste tests. Light beer wont mask many flavor differences, and it is cheap to make/quick from kettle to glass! This way I will know for sure and not be talking out of my ass!

I feel like since most brewers start with extract, they don't have other important aspects of making great beer down so it gets a bad reputation

Germelli1 said:

That probably has more to do with fermtation temps than anything. I noticed a huge difference in my beers when I switched to all grain, but that was also the time I began using starters and controlling fermentation temps. I have since brewed extract batches in my apartment at school where I can't have propane, and none of them came out with the same "Extract twang" I used to attribute to extract.

I may brew a side by side mild brown ale extract and all grain and do some blind taste tests. Light beer wont mask many flavor differences, and it is cheap to make/quick from kettle to glass! This way I will know for sure and not be talking out of my ass!

I feel like since most brewers start with extract, they don't have other important aspects of making great beer down so it gets a bad reputation

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I agree that experience probably bears the lion's share of the difference. I had brewed a ton of batches when I brewed extract, but it took a long time until I finally nailed down my process. In fact, the only two batches I brewed the same way were, not coincidentally, the last two extract batches I've ever done - and those beers came out great.

One thing I think is tough to argue against is the difference in wort colors. My first AG batch was a clone of Nugget Nectar, and the color of the wort from the first runnings was unreal.

Germelli1 said:

That probably has more to do with fermtation temps than anything. I noticed a huge difference in my beers when I switched to all grain, but that was also the time I began using starters and controlling fermentation temps. I have since brewed extract batches in my apartment at school where I can't have propane, and none of them came out with the same "Extract twang" I used to attribute to extract.

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I respectfully disagree. I was using starters, using full boils and late editions by my 2nd brew. My fermentation was solid and maintained at 68F, which was what many of those styles I brewed for (IPAs, Porters, browns) called for.

There is a taste to extract, that AG does not have. Some people may not have the palate to pick it up. However 5/6 people did when I presented Arrogant in the extract, AG, friends AG and commercial version. I should also mention that 5/6 picked the AG version over the original for best brew. the odd man out picked the extract version.

I will concede that obviously your process gets better with experience. I will not concede that extract produces beers that compare to "most" AG styles.

even if they tasted the same though... you have to admit, the cost is the ultimate deal breaker for extract. Don't claim equipment costs either (BIAB)

CidahMastah said:

There is a taste to extract, that AG does not have. Some people may not have the palate to pick it up. However 5/6 people did when I presented Arrogant in the extract, AG, friends AG and commercial version. I should also mention that 5/6 picked the AG version over the original for best brew. the odd man out picked the extract version.

I will concede that obviously your process gets better with experience. I will not concede that extract produces beers that compare to "most" AG styles.

even if they tasted the same though... you have to admit, the cost is the ultimate deal breaker for extract. Don't claim equipment costs either (BIAB)

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So your argument is that its basically impossible to brew an extract batch without "twang"? And if you think you have its only because you possess an inferior palate? Sounds kind of pretentious to me. You should probably share your thoughts with the BJCP judges that have awarded first place to extract entries.

Have you stopped to consider that, despite your brewing prowess, there were things that you, in your own process, overlooked that resulted in the "twang" being present in your brews? Could there be a difference in the quality of the extract? Water profile? Whether or not you steeped grains and for how long and at what temp, and in what volume of water?

Clearly for you it wasn't fermentation temps. But to assume that you've done everything perfectly to the point where you can proclaim with 100% certainty that its impossible to brew without extract twang is silly.

waddsworth said:

So your argument is that its basically impossible to brew an extract batch without "twang"? And if you think you have its only because you possess an inferior palate? Sounds kind of pretentious to me.

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Nope - I presented my opinion, then followed up by anecdotal experience. You assumed like crazy from there.

waddsworth said:

You should probably share your thoughts with the BJCP judges that have awarded first place to extract entries.

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I clearly said great extract can be brewed in certain styles - reread my post.

"I am not saying great extract can't be made, just saying most of the extract brews do have a different noticeable flavor IMO. IPAs were an exception to that rule for me. Too bad extract IPAs cost the same to brew as they do to buy!"

waddsworth said:

Have you stopped to consider that, despite your brewing prowess, there were things that you, in your own process, overlooked that resulted in the "twang" being present in your brews? Could there be a difference in the quality of the extract? Water profile? Whether or not you steeped grains and for how long and at what temp, and in what volume of water?

Clearly for you it wasn't fermentation temps. But to assume that you've done everything perfectly to the point where you can proclaim with 100% certainty that its impossible to brew without extract twang is silly.

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This is where you sir, show your own inexperience, ****** baggery and small mindedness. I am not the only one who agrees that there is a detectable taste.... you however, are the only one who brought sourness to a respectable discussion.

I only made 2 extracts before going AG so I will probably never know. My extracts tasted pretty good imo. But I like doing as much from scratch as I can. One thing I notice with my first AG is that spiciness of the wheat malt. I did a wheat extract and can't taste that but it's probably because of all the hops I put in that one covering it up. All I know is AG is pretty satisfying when you get it right. I'll be honest I felt inferior doing extract hah.

I've never really felt *inferior* doing extract, and I've been overall satisfied with the results. But IMO this hobby is similar to being an espresso geek. Once you get the knowledge, nice grinder, roast, and machine there is simply no comparison! Also, I LOVE to cook and experiment in the kitchen...AG seems to be an extension of that.

Jubilee said:

I've never really felt *inferior* doing extract, and I've been overall satisfied with the results. But IMO this hobby is similar to being an espresso geek. Once you get the knowledge, nice grinder, roast, and machine there is simply no comparison! Also, I LOVE to cook and experiment in the kitchen...AG seems to be an extension of that.

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+1

former professional chef myself - paid for college

Jubilee said:

I've never really felt *inferior* doing extract, and I've been overall satisfied with the results. But IMO this hobby is similar to being an espresso geek. Once you get the knowledge, nice grinder, roast, and machine there is simply no comparison! Also, I LOVE to cook and experiment in the kitchen...AG seems to be an extension of that.

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TBH I feel inferior just not having the knowledge being fairly new to this however I feel like now that I am doing AG I can converse with the vets a little better. It's not like small peepee man. It's like you say. For me if I made pizza and used frozen crust I would cringe to call it my own even though I did put it together but I know how to make my own dough and it's cheaper so I usually go that route. Also pancake mix, hell naw lol.

I will say that I thought I made some pretty good beers with extract and some good beers AG. One nice thing that AG will get you that a lot of kinds of wheat extract won't is the nice cloudiness that you get from wheat in a wit. I got dinged for that in competition once...it wasn't cloudy enough.

CidahMastah said:

Nope - I presented my opinion, then followed up by anecdotal experience. You assumed like crazy from there.

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There is a taste to extract that AG does not have. Some people may not have the palate to pick it up.

I'm sorry, this doesn't read like a respectful expression of opinion. Whatever it is, its backed up by YOUR anecdotal evidence - congrats for proving my point. You haven't tasted every single extract home brew, so to pretend to be able to proclaim "There is a taste to extract that AG does not have" is intellectually disingenuous. In your experience that may be true, but that doesn't have to be the case for everyone.

I clearly said great extract can be brewed in certain styles - reread my post.

"I am not saying great extract can't be made, just saying most of the extract brews do have a different noticeable flavor IMO. IPAs were an exception to that rule for me. Too bad extract IPAs cost the same to brew as they do to buy!"

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This is a more reasonable assessment of your experiences. As with anything else in brewing, YMMV.

This is where you sir, show your own inexperience, ****** baggery and small mindedness. I am not the only one who agrees that there is a detectable taste.... you however, are the only one who brought sourness to a respectable discussion.

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Ummmm... Ok. All I did was ask some valid questions. If you think popular opinion is enough to prove scientific fact, fine... good luck with that. Also, excellent job on the name-calling and attempted condescension. Bravo!

my AGs are just smoother ... no better word for the difference to me than smoother ..

and much cheaper

waddsworth - .... really?....

Yup. Just because YOU were unable to brew extract beers without "twang", doesn't mean everyone else can't. That's all I'm saying. Your comment about people's palates... it's sorta like "The Emporers New Clothes".

Eh.. OP opened a giant can of worms here. My beers vastly improved after switching to AG, but it was my third batch and many other improvements came at the same time.. Id always attributed the better flavor to AG, but havent gone back to extract since to do a comparison now that the rest of my process is stable.

Well, for ****s and giggles, I'd be willing to do a big HBT experiment so we can help put this baby to rest. Whoever wants to participate can. It would involve some work, but could be fun. We settle on a recipe in both AG and extract, and each participant brews both. The brews get bottled and marked so that only the brewer knows which is which and one of each is mailed out to each participant. Then each participant reports back which one they think is the extract batch. Results get posted here on HBT.

Anyone? Anyone?

Two things account for the difference IMO. One is the freshness of the extract. You wouldn't expect your AG brews to be the same quality if you produced wort and then sucked most of the moisture out of it and let it sit for two months at home. So buying super fresh extract from a high turnover vendor is important. And the other thing is that many AG brewers start with extract and by the time they get to AG they have improved brewing techniques therefore they produce better beer.

bruin_ale said:

Eh.. OP opened a giant can of worms here.

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Happens every time someone asks this question.

waddsworth said:

Well, for ****s and giggles, I'd be willing to do a big HBT experiment so we can help put this baby to rest. Whoever wants to participate can. It would involve some work, but could be fun. We settle on a recipe in both AG and extract, and each participant brews both. The brews get bottled and marked so that only the brewer knows which is which and one of each is mailed out to each participant. Then each participant reports back which one they think is the extract batch. Results get posted here on HBT.

Anyone? Anyone?

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will you be using liquid extract or dry extract? In my opinion dry makes a beer that tastes better and also is lighter in color. If you did the experiment you'd have to do 3 versions. dry extract, liquid extract and AG. Of course, the AG batch will probably look lighters than the extract versions. The only way to avoid color giving it away would be making a dark beer. But then you have dark strong flavored grain covering up any possible off flavors. A lighter colored beer would be less likely to cover any off flavors but would then be open to visual clues to which was extract. Only a true blind taste test (blind folded) would give an honest response. But who's to say each person was really blind folded.

The idea of a taste test would be a great experiment, but it would have to be in a very controlled environment to be valid. I feel that AG beers are better. They taste better to me. I made some pretty tasty extract beers that were still much better than commercial beers. I believe they were better simply because they were fresher but my AG beers have been much better than my extract beers. Of course, I didn't start AG until I bought my house. Which has well water so that could in fact be the difference in my beer quality.

Meh, I'd put my faith in the honesty and integrity of the participants to overlook the color of the brew and judge on taste alone. We could also stipulate that the beers should be served in an opaque container - like a coffee mug or something. Like I said, it'd be mostly for ****s and giggles.

brian2can said:

The taste from extract, is somewhat maltier in my opinion. The AG is crisper and cleaner. I even think the aroma comes through nicer in the AG. My first 4 beer batches i did were Extracts, the last 15 have been AG and i will never go back. The reasons mentioned above for one, but the cost is another. I get my 55 lb bag of 2 row for 30 bucks. Cost is a big reason. After recycling the yeast and using grains and bulk buying the hops, the average cost per batch is 17.00 for 2 cases of beer.

12 lb grain 6.50
2 lb special grains 5.00
50 bottle caps 1.00
3 oz hops 4.50
yeast 5 if new 0 if recycled.

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Unless my math is bad 55 lbs of 2 row for $30 = $1.83333/lb
I can buy just what I need at my LHBS for $1.70/lb
Of course I have to add gas, but I'd spend that to pick up the other grains and hops needed.
Dry yeast I'm buying on line. Buying 20 packs + shipping is cheaper than getting it locally.

bruin_ale said:

Eh.. OP opened a giant can of worms here. My beers vastly improved after switching to AG, but it was my third batch and many other improvements came at the same time.. Id always attributed the better flavor to AG, but havent gone back to extract since to do a comparison now that the rest of my process is stable.

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Shooter said:

Happens every time someone asks this question.

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Sorry guys. Relatively new here and I had no idea this was a potential point of contention.

Was just thinking out loud and passing time until I can get me AG brew on next month! :rockin:

C-Rider said:

Unless my math is bad 55 lbs of 2 row for $30 = $1.83333/lb
I can buy just what I need at my LHBS for $1.70/lb
Of course I have to add gas, but I'd spend that to pick up the other grains and hops needed.
Dry yeast I'm buying on line. Buying 20 packs + shipping is cheaper than getting it locally.

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take 30.00 and divide by 55.. you did it backwards. comes out to 0.5454545454545455 per pound. which if you reverse it and do .5454545454545455 x 55 = 30.
the way you did it would be 1.83333 x 55 = 100.8315

The one thing I find different between my all grain and extract brews is the final gravity. All things being equal I would say my avg all grain ends around 1.010 or 1.012 and extract 1.016 or 1.018.

My all grains are generally a little better I think for this difference.

Mysticmead said:

take 30.00 and divide by 55.. you did it backwards. comes out to 0.5454545454545455 per pound. which if you reverse it and do .5454545454545455 x 55 = 30.
the way you did it would be 1.83333 x 55 = 100.8315

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:fro:

petep1980 said:

The one thing I find different between my all grain and extract brews is the final gravity. All things being equal I would say my avg all grain ends around 1.010 or 1.012 and extract 1.016 or 1.018.

My all grains are generally a little better I think for this difference.

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I only did 2 extracts but mine ended at 1.010 and 1.012. I did not do starters. My experience was not bad. I liked the dry better. The stuff is too expensive though. I was pricing out an IPA and it was coming out at like 60 bucks lol. Might as well just buy it at that point.

CidahMastah said:

I respectfully disagree. I was using starters, using full boils and late editions by my 2nd brew. My fermentation was solid and maintained at 68F, which was what many of those styles I brewed for (IPAs, Porters, browns) called for.

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I hate to get flamed, buy my experience is/was similar. Some very good beers have been made with extract, but I was able to detect an "extract taste" in all of them, even in some that won ribbons in competitions I judged. They were very good, even excellent, but I noticed. I've had some terrible AG beers, some excellent extract beers and everything in between. But I noticed.

C-Rider said:

Unless my math is bad 55 lbs of 2 row for $30 = $1.83333/lb
I can buy just what I need at my LHBS for $1.70/lb
Of course I have to add gas, but I'd spend that to pick up the other grains and hops needed.
Dry yeast I'm buying on line. Buying 20 packs + shipping is cheaper than getting it locally.

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Your math is bad! It's just about 55 cents/pound for 55 pounds of two-row for $30. I pay a bit more- nearly $37 for 50 pounds which is 74 cents/pound.

I can't tell yet, so far I have done 3 all grain brews, only one (vienna/northern brewer SMaSH) just made it to the bottle 10 days ago. So far the people who have tried it, knowing its still a bit young and undercarbed, liked it much better than the 2 extract batches I did. I think its many of the other things I have learned and gotten better at since those 2 extract batches that made it better not just going all grain.

Congrats on going all grain! Don't underestimate holding a steady fermentation temp. Having a dedicated freezer with a JC temp control is the single best investment I made

While I can see that some improved technical aspect may be learned at the same time a brewer us going to AG that could make the difference seem greater but I've recently gone back to extract for ever other brew due to time constraints. I do say that there is a difference that I can only describe as AG being "fresher". Even if I use LME that is frequently turned over, it seems to have a molassesey taste. DME on the other hand will produce a respectable house beer. I have brewed the two beers side by side on a blonde and the AG was the hands down winner.

But if it comes down to not having the time to brew of brewing a DME based beer, I'll brew.

I have made 13 extract brews and got that process down very well and everyone loved the beers. But the lighter beers had a taste. Not bad. All very drinkable.
That pushed me to all grain to see if I could make it taste like a professional beer. Crisp, clean etc.
I have done 2 all grain brews so far and they both suck. My efficiency is around 50%. Very disappointing. No body to the beers. Just very unbalanced beers.
My problems have been with equipment and have caused me to not be able to maintain the needed temps to get the results.
So far all grain has been very challenging for me. When I finally get it right it will be worth it I am sure.

Jubilee said:

Sorry guys. Relatively new here and I had no idea this was a potential point of contention.

Was just thinking out loud and passing time until I can get me AG brew on next month! :rockin:

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Ugh!...look what you did now, Jubilee! See what thinking out loud again has gotten you into again?? Haha!