High Gravity Carbonation Issue

We just sampled a bottle of our bourbon barrel aged imperial stout and it was still flat after 6wks after filling. Any suggestions on how we should proceed? Here are our thoughts thus far.

1. Be patient and wait another month
2. open each bottle and add some carb tabs
3. open each bottle and add more priming sugar/champagne yeast solution

Even flat this was our best effort and we want to do anything to save our 2 cases of bourbon barrel aged imperial stout that has been 29wks+ in the making. Could we have lost too much yeast with the 23wks aging prior to bottling? We have bottling conditioned an 11% imperial stout that used California Ale yeast (same as 1056).

Here are the details

• OG = 1.109
• FG = 1.032
• Wyeast 1056 (1gal starter + additional pack)
• Fermented in mid 60's, no ability to cold crash
• Barrell stored in living room over the summer, estimated @ 70F
• 2.5oz corn sugar for 5gal in bottling bucket
• 11wks in primary (3/3/2012 to 5/18/2012)
• 12wks in ~5.5gal spent bourbon barrel (5/18/2012 to 8/11/2012)
• 6wks and counting (bottled on 8/11/2012)

wiescins said:

1. Be patient and wait another month

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Be patient and wait another 4-5 months. Big beers take lots of time to bottle condition, and regardless it sounds like this one will age out well. 3-6 months isn't uncommon for huge beers. Keep the bottles above 70 degrees if you can and wait it out. Brew a smaller beer to quench your thirst while you wait!

zachattack said:

Be patient and wait another 4-5 months. Big beers take lots of time to bottle condition, and regardless it sounds like this one will age out well. 3-6 months isn't uncommon for huge beers. Keep the bottles above 70 degrees if you can and wait it out. Brew a smaller beer to quench your thirst while you wait!

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Thanks for the reply! Our plan was to wait until Halloween, will probably push that back even farther now. Getting to 70+ is going to be tough in a Chicago winter, I might need to get creative for this.

For background, we tend mix in some high gravity stuff and use the WLP001 & Wyeast 1056 almost exclusively (unless Belgian etc...) this is only the 2nd time for this problem at 6wks in the bottle. This is the highest OG & FG we have done though, and none have been longer than ~10wks from brew day to bottle. Here is some of the details for past big brews.

• 1.105 to 1.023 Imperial Stout, no issue
• 1.099 to 1.025 Imperial Stout aged on Oak spindle's, actually over carb'd
• 1.100 to 1.025 Barleywine, under carb'd (only other time we've been low, stored too cool for first 4 wks)

We currently have a couple more batches in-process that I'm now getting nervous about.

• 1.120 to 1.030 Barleywine (now aging in the bourbon barrel)
• 1.101 to 1.018 Belgium Quad (just bottled Saturday, used Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity)

That all sounds pretty tasty to me! I've never done it, but I've heard if you add yeast in the bottling bucket it'll speed things up.

I say just put the bottles in the warmest part of your house and forget about them. Probably 65 degrees is fine, it'll just be a bit slower. I had the same problem in my last apartment, I would turn the thermostat down at night and during the day. I built a little bottle conditioning "warm box" out of cardboard in the corner of my closet, I put a tiny lamp in there and a fan and piled blankets on top of it. It would reach 75-80 degrees pretty easily, even in my unheated 50 degree closet.

Pushing the alcohol tolerance like that I would have done some things differently.

Adding more sugar is probably a bad idea. Uncapping and adding anything might do more harm athan good.

I would shake them a little bit now and again but forget drinking for 4 months or so.

cheezydemon3 said:

Pushing the alcohol tolerance like that I would have done some things differently.

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What would you recommend for future brews?

You never want to add more sugar when there's an issue with carbonation. The problem with carbonation is not with the sugar. If you added sugar and a beer isn't carbed YET.....it's not that there's not enough sugar it's that the yeast is slow in eating the sugar that is already there.

Adding more sugar to a carb issue is just going to mean that when the yeast DOES get around to eating ALL the sugar, what was originally added, AND what the person adding to "fix" the problem, they're going to end up at the best overcarbed beer, and at the worst, Bottle bombs.

With big beers (and with any carb issues) is that you have sluggish, slow moving yeast.....It wakes awhile to consume the sugar in there. I've had big beers take 6 months to carb up.

One way to help the process along with big beers is to add fresh yeast at bottling time. Adding yeast is never harmful, because yeast can ONLY eat the fermentable sugars present, and do nothing more. It can't make more sugar and therefore you wouldn't run the risk of bottling bombs....

Revvy said:

You never want to add more sugar when there's an issue with carbonation. The problem with carbonation is not with the yeast. If you added sugar and a beer isn't carbed YET.....it's not that there's not enough sugar it's that the yeast is slow in eating the sugar that is already there.

Adding more sugar to a carb issue is just going to mean that when the yeast DOES get around to eating ALL the sugar, what was originally added, AND what the person adding to "fix" the problem, they're going to end up at the best overcarbed beer, and at the worst, Bottle bombs.

With big beers (and with any carb issues) is that you have sluggish, slow moving yeast.....It wakes awhile to consume the sugar in there. I've had big beers take 6 months to carb up.

One way to help the process along with big beers is to add fresh yeast at bottling time. Adding yeast is never harmful, because yeast can ONLY eat the fermentable sugars present, and do nothing more. It can't make more sugar and therefore you wouldn't run the risk of bottling bombs....

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Thanks Revy, sounds like I need to RDWHAHB.

wiescins said:

What would you recommend for future brews?

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I had good success with adding new yeast to the cooled priming solution, sealing it for 15 minutes or so (it got a little foamy for me) and then pitching the actively fermenting yeast into the BIG beer. Bottle as usual.

Step fermentation helps yeast to get to the end of the process not so crapped out.
That involves adding more fermentables and aeration partway into fermentation.

Obviously, keg carbing and then bottling is the surest bet.

cheezydemon3 said:

I had good success with adding new yeast to the cooled priming solution, sealing it for 15 minutes or so (it got a little foamy for me) and then pitching the actively fermenting yeast into the BIG beer. Bottle as usual.

Step fermentation helps yeast to get to the end of the process not so crapped out.
That involves adding more fermentables and aeration partway into fermentation.

Obviously, keg carbing and then bottling is the surest bet.

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Thanks! Will definitely look into adding some yeast to the bottling bucket next time. Did you use the same strain or a Champagne yeast?

wiescins said:

Thanks! Will definitely look into adding some yeast to the bottling bucket next time. Did you use the same strain or a Champagne yeast?

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Same strain. It could be my imagination, but I honestly believe that letting the yeast "wake up" in the sugar water before being tossed in the alcohol bath has real value.

Thanks everyone! My brewing buddy and I have talked about it and we are going to RDWHAHB until Christmas, then give it a try then. In the meantime we will need to figure out what to do with our Barleywine aging in a bourbon barrel (1.120 to 1.030) when it's time to bottle. It's been in there 6wks now, and it will be at least another 6wks before we move it.

My barleywine that will be a total of 5 years before serving is in an oak barrel now. I WILL be adding yeast at bottling time. But it will still be two years in the bottle before opening.

Revvy said:

My barleywine that will be a total of 5 years before serving is in an oak barrel now. I WILL be adding yeast at bottling time. But it will still be two years in the bottle before opening.

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You are much more patient than we are! Any details about this BW that you care to share? Are you giving 3 years on oak, or is it moving around a couple times?

Here

I'm going to bottle it soon.

Revvy said:

Here

I'm going to bottle it soon.

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I'm glad you doing well! Your BW looks awesome. How long are you going to leave in the bourbon barrel?

I'll probably bottle it in the next couple of weeks. It's about 3 months now.

Just a thought as I was reading this in preparation for bottling my first barley wine, could aging your beer in the bourbon barrels be part of the problem with carbing up the beer? Perhaps the residual bourbon in the barrel which is a much higher alcohol percentage could be killing off yeast/preventing them from carbing the beer?

any thoughts?

whitedog87 said:

just a thought as i was reading this in preparation for bottling my first barley wine, could aging your beer in the bourbon barrels be part of the problem with carbing up the beer? Perhaps the residual bourbon in the barrel which is a much higher alcohol percentage could be killing off yeast/preventing them from carbing the beer?

Any thoughts?

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no.lol. No added alcohol from barrels.

cheezydemon3 said:

no.lol. No added alcohol from barrels.

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LOL sorry not accepting that answer, with zero explanation or reasoning. The wood in bourbon barrels is porous and absorbs bourbon as it ages so how can you say for sure there is no residual alcohol in the barrels?

I have tried about 10 different beers aged in bourbon barrels and every one I have tried has tasted strongly of Bourbon and even had some higher alcohol flavors.

Are the barrels cleaned before you use them? Even if they are it has to be difficult to get rid of everything from the porous wood they are made from.

WhiteDog87 said:

Just a thought as I was reading this in preparation for bottling my first barley wine, could aging your beer in the bourbon barrels be part of the problem with carbing up the beer? Perhaps the residual bourbon in the barrel which is a much higher alcohol percentage could be killing off yeast/preventing them from carbing the beer?

any thoughts?

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It's not carbing fast because It's a big beer. A Barelywine is going to take time to carb up regardless of whether or not it's oak aged in a whiskey barrel or not.

So, tried the BA Imperial Stout bottled in August this past weekend. Still completely un carbonated. Should I start to consider some kind of intervention or do I need to be more patient?

Any advice? Not even a slight "psst" when opened after 30wks in the bottle. They have been in an interior closet the entire time, definately not @ 70F in a chicago winter, but we keep the heat set @ 69F all day (have a 5 month old in the house, yes the beer in question is actually older than him).

You could try getting them a little bit warmer for a week or two, maybe around 80F and see if that kicks the yeast back into gear. Not speaking from personal experience but you could give it a shot. I think if you tried to pour it all into a keg and force carbonate it you would probably end up oxidizing the beer.

wiescins said:

Any advice? Not even a slight "psst" when opened after 30wks in the bottle. They have been in an interior closet the entire time, definately not @ 70F in a chicago winter, but we keep the heat set @ 69F all day (have a 5 month old in the house, yes the beer in question is actually older than him).

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Any luck since March? I really hope this ends successully. I am at about 6 weeks with my 10.5% bourbon barrel imperial stout and it's flat. FG 1.044. Have another 12.5% version sitting in secondary & might throw in some cherries. I'd be very disappointed if the 1056 never wakes up.

I'm in Chicago too but have the opposite temp problem. I can store it at 70-73 in the house during summer. But in winter, I can put it next to a heat vent and kick it up to 85. Helps with fermenting the saisons. So the big stouts will likely sleep for a few months until i can warm them up in a controlled fashion.

Still not there yet and it has been a full year in the bottles now. I would consider it right now as lightly carbonated, think BA Plead the 5th (if you have been lucky enough to try that). The bottles have been moved to a warmer part of the condo, so I think that has helped. Last time we opened one it was tasting delicious, just lacking a few bubbles. We have also bottled the Barleywine I mentioned prior (1.12 down to 1.03), did that on 1/6/13, so that is still under carb'd as well. All are in the warmest spot I have available, hoping they get there.

I definitely think the suggestion of adding some yeast at bottling is a good idea. I would use the same yeast though, don't want to add a more attenuative yeast and make bottle bombs.

UPDATE: First batch is flat still, but that's gonna be the status for quite a while. Second batch was on bourbon oak for 6 weeks. Last week I racked it off the oak and on to 1lb of crushed sour cherries. Gravity was still 1.045. I added a packet of Safale-05 after re-hydrating the yeast. Original yeast was Wyeast 1056, but I'm not worried about inconsistent flavors at this point. Cell count & carbonation is my concern.

So it has been on the cherries for 1 week. I will check tonight or tonorrow if the gravity has changed. There has been no visible fermentation after adding fresh yeast and cherries. Could be b/c the yeast is top fermenting & cherries are sitting at the bottom. But I'm not concerned as long as there are enough viable cells to eat the sugar I add at bottling this weekend.

Moral of the story: stop wasting hundreds of dollars and years upon years trying to naturally carbonate high gravity stouts, and get a kegging/force carbonation system set up. Right?

UPDATE: Finally got around to checking gravity on batch 2, and was surprised to see adding fresh yeast and cherries got gravity down from 1.045 to 1.043 in 17 days. I added 3.5 oz of dme for priming and bottled. We'll see how it goes. only have 2.5 gallons of this, so there won't be any opening bottles after 2 weeks to taste.

Wiecsins: I had a fairly high gravity brew that was reluctant to carb as well. Have you tried rousing the yeast? I know it sounds simple, but give it a shot (nothing else to lose at this point):

Make sure the bottles are room tempterature (won't work in the fridge).
Invert them (stand them on their caps) for 12 hours.
Re-vert them to their upright position.
Let them sit at room temperature for another ??? days (weeks probably)
Chill down, and then pop one open.

This actually worked for a x-mas spiced ale that I brewed 2 years ago that failed to carbonate even after a year.