Questions for yeast savers

BetterSense · Oct 18, 2011

Do you find the flavor changes with reused yeast compared to new yeast? If so, after how much reuse? Don't regurgitate the conventional wisdom...only first-hand experience please.

Have you ever ruined batches due to reusing yeast? Dry yeast is pretty fail-safe. I really hate losing batches and yeast is important.

I'm debating between cheap dry yeasts used new every time, to more expensive yeasts which I can only justify if I can use one yeast purchase on 4+ batches.

smalliewader · Oct 18, 2011

I haven't noticed any flavor changes yet.

You should be making a starter to verify the yeast is viable...so no, no ruined batches. I know the yeast is healthy and ready to go.

StokedBrew · Oct 18, 2011

What I frequently do is take one liquid yeast and make a 1 gallon starter that I can then use for 3 or 4 batches, all fresh. I've only racked on to an established yeast cake for high gravity beers, namely Barley wine, which turned out to be a huge benefit as I achieved a 14%abv. As for reusing yeast beyond 2 batches, I've limited experience. If I'm doing just a simple 5 gallon, I'd go dry yeast 9 times out of 10, the exception being a specific style which requires an exotic yeast.

BeerWard · Oct 18, 2011

I have timed some batches, so that the slurry gets harvested right after kegging. It gets pitched into the brewed batch the same day. I use Mrmalty to help with pitching rates, and have never had any issues.

BetterSense · Oct 18, 2011

When my beer is finished, the yeast makes a pretty hard cake in the bottom. There's no way I could pour it out. Do you pour some boiled water into the fermenter to try to swirl some of the yeast into suspension?

passedpawn · Oct 18, 2011

BetterSense said:
Do you pour some boiled water into the fermenter

cool it first. I'd just pour some homebrew in there and swirl.

Psych · Oct 18, 2011

No flavor differences in my experience, and so far no batters have been compromised. I've reused slurry from dry yeast maybe 5 times now, and I just pour it into my jars, seal them up and fridge em, then dump 200-400ml of actual slurry (pouring off any beer that settled up), depending on what I'm using it in.

I've so far only gone to three batches on a yeast pack then I wind up getting lazy or have just brewed a high abv beer, lots of hops or something.

Well worth it though!

ajf · Oct 18, 2011

Ruined is such a strong word. I once had a batch that was definitely not right on the 4th or 5th generation. It under attenuated which indicated to me that the problem was caused by the yeast, and didn't taste right. Since that time, I have never gone beyond 3 generations and haven't had any problems with the yeast.
As for flavor changes and attenuation, I think I do get some differences (but in a positive way).
Using a first generation yeast, I seem to get lower attenuation than using a second or third generation yeast (about 4 - 5%). I also think that my second and third generation brews taste better than the first generation, but I must admit that the flavor difference is very subtle, and could be influenced by my desire not to spend $8.75 for a vial of yeast for each brew.

-a.

AmandaK · Oct 19, 2011

BetterSense said:
I'm debating between cheap dry yeasts used new every time, to more expensive yeasts which I can only justify if I can use one yeast purchase on 4+ batches.

Here's my technique:
Pitch fresh yeast into wort
Rack beer
Leave 1/2" beer in fermenter
Swirl
Pour into 3 pint jars
Refrigerate
Make starter from 1 pint
Pitch
Repeat

Using this, I can get at least 10 beers out of 2 generations of one smack pack. 4 should be no problem.

I should say though, I do not save the yeast if it's a REALLY hoppy beer or high ABV beer, so I generally plan accordingly. I haven't had issues with flavor change.

Cromwell · Oct 19, 2011

ajf said:
Ruined is such a strong word. I once had a batch that was definitely not right on the 4th or 5th generation. It under attenuated which indicated to me that the problem was caused by the yeast, and didn't taste right. Since that time, I have never gone beyond 3 generations and haven't had any problems with the yeast.
As for flavor changes and attenuation, I think I do get some differences (but in a positive way).
Using a first generation yeast, I seem to get lower attenuation than using a second or third generation yeast (about 4 - 5%). I also think that my second and third generation brews taste better than the first generation, but I must admit that the flavor difference is very subtle, and could be influenced by my desire not to spend $8.75 for a vial of yeast for each brew.

-a.

Just asking here, but it sounds like you might be experiencing pitching rate differences. It's unlikely that yeast improves after the first batch, but highly likely that your second generation has a higher yeast count than your first. Similarly, it sounds possible that the 5th generation batch you had that didn't come out well was under-pitched, especially since it under-attenuated.

Do you make a new starter with each generation?

Cromwell · Oct 19, 2011

Actually, this whole thread begs the question:
How do you know how much yeast you're actually pitching on your second or third generation? With a packet or tube, there's a set count which you can expect to multiply if you make a starter. But the more starters you make and the more times you wash a slurry the higher the variability of your yeast count.

How do you know?

flyfisherwes · Oct 19, 2011

I like this thread cause I'm gonna start saving and re using yeast. So I'm posting to subscribe.
But it also made me think. How do you get those vials of white labs open without them spewing everywhere?

Misplaced_Canuck · Oct 19, 2011

I take this approach:

A Wyeast pack goes into a 1 Gallon Starter (NOT stir plate). A part of it goes into another starter on the stir plate, and the remaining part gets fermented out and stored in yeast vials, usually 6 of them, stored in the fridge. I then use 5 of the yeast vials just like a Wyeast pack into a stir plate starter.

When I reach the last vial, I create a new generation, with a 1 gallon starter, and do the same as above.

I'm only on 1 yeast that's on second generation. The rest are still first gen.

M_C

flyfisherwes · Oct 19, 2011

Misplaced_Canuck said:
I take this approach:

A Wyeast pack goes into a 1 Gallon Starter (NOT stir plate). A part of it goes into another starter on the stir plate, and the remaining part gets fermented out and stored in yeast vials, usually 6 of them, stored in the fridge. I then use 5 of the yeast vials just like a Wyeast pack into a stir plate starter.

When I reach the last vial, I create a new generation, with a 1 gallon starter, and do the same as above.

I'm only on 1 yeast that's on second generation. The rest are still first gen.

M_C

This seems cool. Would you please give some details on your 1 gallon starter? And how much of a portion you use to pitch vs put into vials?

ajf · Oct 19, 2011

Cromwell said:
Just asking here, but it sounds like you might be experiencing pitching rate differences. It's unlikely that yeast improves after the first batch, but highly likely that your second generation has a higher yeast count than your first. Similarly, it sounds possible that the 5th generation batch you had that didn't come out well was under-pitched, especially since it under-attenuated.

Do you make a new starter with each generation?

I'll agree that there probably are some small differences in the pitching rate, but I also think that yeast adapts to fermentation conditions. Even with a first generation yeast, I get higher attenuation than the specs suggest. For the second and third generations, I think the yeasts have adapted to my fermentation conditions, resulting in slightly higher attenuation.
My 5th generation batch was definitely bad. Lack of attenuation, and off flavors indicated to me that it was caused by an infection. I'm not saying it was caused by the yeasts mutating, but each time I harvest a new generation (which I do in my kitchen) I have a chance of introducing an infection. That batch definitely got to the point where the yeasts were compromised.
As for making starters, the only time I don't is when pitching onto a good amount of yeast that was harvested within the past 7 days (which is virtually never).

-a.

Misplaced_Canuck · Oct 20, 2011

flyfisherwes said:
This seems cool. Would you please give some details on your 1 gallon starter? And how much of a portion you use to pitch vs put into vials?

There's not real wizardry here...

1 gallon starter with 1.030-1.040 wort (no hops). Add the swelled up pack of Wyeast, put the airlock on top. Let it start going. When fermentation is active, add some of that active yeast into another starter in a erlenmeyer on the stir plate. (That's the starter for the upcoming batch).

Let the remainder of the 1 gallon ferment out, and the contents in sanitized containers. I use 3oz vials like these:

medical-packing-vials-plastic-vials-pill-vials-tablet-vials.jpg

I get about 1/4" of slurry to settle at the bottom. The rest is filled with the fermented out starter. In other words, I mix the growler's contents before I fill the vials and it settles out.

Pic of 1-gallon starter along with it's descendent:

Yeast vial:

M_C

BetterSense · Oct 20, 2011

Thanks for the info. I had been wondering that, because of the way the yeast settles out. So you basically let the 1-gallon starter ferment all the way, then you like, shake it back up to put stir up the yeast and put the cloudy stuff in the small jars?

I hadn't thought of making a big starter from the get-go. That way, you have multiple beers that are all on first-generation (except for the starter) yeast, instead of waiting and reusing yeast after a batch.

flyfisherwes · Oct 20, 2011

Misplaced_Canuck said:
There's not real wizardry here...

1 gallon starter with 1.030-1.040 wort (no hops). Add the swelled up pack of Wyeast, put the airlock on top. Let it start going. When fermentation is active, add some of that active yeast into another starter in a erlenmeyer on the stir plate. (That's the starter for the upcoming batch).

Let the remainder of the 1 gallon ferment out, and the contents in sanitized containers. I use 3oz vials like these:

I get about 1/4" of slurry to settle at the bottom. The rest is filled with the fermented out starter. In other words, I mix the growler's contents before I fill the vials and it settles out.

Pic of 1-gallon starter along with it's descendent:

Yeast vial:

M_C

Thanks m_c. I had thought something like this should work but when I asked Elsewhere I was told I was overcomplicating things. They said I should just wash from a cake. To me this seems cleaner and easier than that.

How big of a starter do to make when you use the vials?

How much of the 1 gallon original do you pour off for the first batches starter?

I'm wondering how much liquid you leave to mix the mini cake with before pouring into vials. Did you say you got like 3 or 4 vials? I thought about settling out the original starter in the fridge then decanting off the liquid and adding more "starter liquid" to get more yeast. Then going to vials.

tonyolympia · Oct 20, 2011

Misplaced_Canuck said:
1 gallon starter with 1.030-1.040 wort (no hops). Add the swelled up pack of Wyeast, put the airlock on top.

Any reason you use an airlock, MC? I thought we were shooting for gas exchange in making starters.

Misplaced_Canuck · Oct 20, 2011

I use an airlock to prevent air from going into the "assumed-sterile" wort. I know this will generate a lower yeast cell count, but it's OK that I have a lower count when I make the gallon starter, as I won't be pitching that into a batch of beer (yet). Remember that I'm only doing reproduction at this point, not fermenting a batch.

The stir-plate starter that I make is "normal sized", so go with what Mr. Malty recommends. I'll often do step-up's to increase the yeast amount without increasing the liquid volume too much.

So I often do 1L starter for a day or two, crash cool, decant, add 1L of new wort back to the erlenmeyer, and spin it for another day or two (for a 5-gal batch).

For a yeast that's been in storage in my fridge, I'll usually estimate the length of time needed based on the time in storage. < 1 month, I can be ready in 3 days. More than 3 months, I'll assume 5 days. And over 6 months, I prepare one week ahead.

I really haven't done that much experimentation with time in the erlenmeyer.

Another important thing is to remember to let the to-be-stored yeast completely ferment out, AND also degas the liquid! Otherwise the lids won't hold tight on those vials! I've taken to degassing completely (the yeast, that is...) and I use masking tape to hold the lids in place (as a safety precaution).

I'm sure some folks will mention autolysis, but I haven't seen any ill effect in any of the beers that I've made. I DO, however, make sure that the yeast is always stored cold in my fridge.

I've used one packet of Wyeast #1028 in over 10 beers since I started brewing again in fall last year, using the method above.

Of course, it goes without saying that every item that comes into contact with the yeast is thoroughly sanitized.

M_C

Misplaced_Canuck · Oct 20, 2011

And naturally, sometimes you need to go bigger. 6L erlenmeyer, filled to 3L I think.

I was brewing a BIG Russian Imperial Stout, TOO big in fact, couldn't use Wyeast 1099 in a 1.114 RIS. (Oops).

M_C

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