Gnarly smell...Again!!!

Ok, so last time i posted i was overwhelmed with people giving some great advice, so I'm hoping that happens again. Still new to brewing but completely addicted! just did my first mini mash today (7th batch of beer). So here is the scenario:

My second attempt at a beer was a stout. On brew-day it smell fantastic. I let it set in the primary fermentor for 10 day. When i popped the lid it did NOT smell the same. Had a sour/black licorice smell, and not that nice roasty scent it first had. After i let it set in the secondary for 2 weeks it still had that same funky smell. Decided not to panic, i bottled it and started to read some forums. I read that some other people kinda had a similar problem and let it age for a few month (some people a year) and it ended up tasting awesome. I crossed my fingers and hoped for the same. Three months later and taste like crap, that sour/ licorice taste still there, almost like sucking on a battery (trying to use some imagery haha). not even fading a little bit. I also has some small white particle blobs at the top. like solidified bubbles. Pretty sure im gonna dump it. I took it as a lesson learned. I was consious about sanitation before, but now I SUPER sensitive to staying hygienic and clean for the beer environment. brewed 3 great beers since then.

Here is the real problem i brewed my holiday ale two weeks ago, made the whole house smell amazing. Stoked! But i just popped the lid... and same smell! not that nice holiday ale scent, but a strange smell that does not smell like beer. Im going to go on a limb a say it smells pretty close to the stout smell from months ago. I think it happened again... What is going on?! I'm addicted to brewing but im getting frustrated. Is it infection? because i don't know if i can make everything more sanitary than i already am. I cant afford every other batch ending up all nasty.

I can post the recipes, but i dont suspect thats the problem seeing how i was able to make good beer in between that stout and this holday ale. So this holiday ale is 2 weeks old now, any thing i should do to try and salvage it? Do i ride the storm and expect it to get better? will age make it taste good?

Thanks in advance for any reply's i can get. Like i said i love brewing, but am getting frustrated really fast...

Here is the stout bottle. White "stuff" at the top

I forgot to add one more bit info. When I pitched my stout I used one vile of WL001. The the OG was 1.062. When I pitched my holiday ale it was only one vile again of WL, but when I opened it this one was a lot more violent when It foamed because at least a third of it shot on my shirt and didn't make it into the beer. I'm guessing that I under pitched that batch. I have since stepped up my game after that experience and used a starter for my yeast on the batch I brewed today. Could have only using one vile(or less) of yeast caused both of those other 2 beers to smell funky?

A few thoughts/questions:

What sanitizer are you using?
What kind of water are you using?
Is there anything in your process that you can imagine causing oxidation?

Thanks for the reply!
Using "five star" Star San and then also started using cheap vodka in a spray bottle.

Using tap water, though iv hear water (here in Hawaii) is ok for brewing.

I use a stainless steel pot, which i heard is better that aluminum for preventing oxidation. I know if you use Oxy powered cleaners on aluminum it can risk oxidation (or so ive heard) I do use scent free Palmolive "oxy plus" dish soap to clean all my gear.

White film at the top of a bottle could be a pellicle- sign of infection.

Using Star San to sanitize, this would be surprising, though.

here's a thread that might help: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/pellicle-photo-collection-174033/

Yeah that could be the dots in the neck of the bottle im seeing. I have a glass secondary fermentor though, and my stout had nothing on the top at that point and the taste/smell was just as strong. Wouldn't you think i would have seen something at the top before i had bottled it?

Yeah, I use starsan and (assuming you are mixing it per directions on the bottle) it should take care of most all nasties.

The white stuff in the bottle *could* be an infection, but it almost just looks like yeast stuff to me. Hard to tell from the pictures/brown glass though.

As for the licorice flavor...
I have heard people describe flavors as licorice when they were tasting phenols. These phenols can react with chlorine or chloramines in the brewing water and result in this spicy clove-like flavor, plasticy (or band aid) flavors, and medicinial flavors--not necessarily all of these, but these are the common descriptors.

Boiling will get rid of most/all of the chlorine in water, but if you water has chloramines then boiling won't really do anything to them. You could try using filtered water for your next batch and see what happens.

I'm not really sure about the sour aspect of the licorice (I kind of ignored it with my chlorine guess above). If it is an unmistakable sourness then I would have to guess foreign bacteria or yeast contamination.

What's odd is I've brewed awesome batches of beer without any of these similar favors with using tap water. My buddy down the street brews with tap water too and he hasn't had this problem either. Youse think it would be reoccurring(to some degree) if it was from using tap water.

A lot could have happened with these two brews. Both were severely under pitched which would stress the yeast. Cause these flavors, I don't know.

You are using vodka in a spray bottle for sanitizing. Vodka can sanitize with extended contact, but starsan in the bottle would be more effective.

Was there a piece of equipment used after the wort was boiled which may not have been dismantled, cleaned, and sanitized?

What was your fermentation temperature and final gravities for these two brews. The higher gravity brews can create quite a bit of heat. Letting the wort temperature get to high can cause off flavors.

Just some ideas. You may have already mitigated these possibilities before the brews.
Wish you the best of luck finding the problem. I hope the forum can help.

You would indeed.

I know you said that the holiday beer didn't smell like beer and it might smell like the stout. I would probably taste this new beer to see if it is in fact the same off flavor. Maybe someone else will have a bright idea until then...

Both beers started right above 1.060 OG. The stout finished at 1.018 ish, and fermenting temp was 68. The holiday ale is only 2 weeks old, I did taste a little, and was not good... Kinda similar to the stout. I'm not ruling out under pitching the yeast. Like I said I have grown in my brew knowledge and am now doing yeast starters, but the stout did reach the estimated final gravity after 3 weeks. Is there anything I should try to help the holiday ale you can think of?

Something *may* have got skip for sanitizing on the stout. But absolutely nothing got skipped on the holiday ale. I was obsessive with the holiday ale on sanitizing.

Three things. 1: Are you completely rinsing your oxy clean dish soap off of everything thoroughly? That would lead to an off flavor. 2: Old re-used star san. Yes you can re-use it...for a while..but if you leave it sit too long it gets funky nasty. I got a band aid beer from that. 3: Taking good care of your yeast..pitch rate...temp of yeast when you pitch it..age (might be a factor in Hawaii??) My 2 cents...good luck locking the source down

Thanks again for all these great tips.
I'm going to rule out the old star San, make a fresh batch everytime.
And the dish soap gets rinsed thoughly. Plus these smells and flavor are pretty pungent so I wouldn't classify them as "off flavors" like some residual soap may have been left.
What ever is causing this it happens before it even makes it into secondary fermentation. From what I've gathered I've obviously under pitched this yeats, but the temps where good on it. Could have stressing this yeast made these extreme smells and scents? Because from what I've read it seems like you can just get "off flavors" or risk infection.
Thanks again for everyone's help

I woke up to this in the holiday ale, pretty sure this is infection. Looking for some confirmation

Two things come to mind. First, what was your lag time on the stout fermentation, how long from the time you pitched to the time your saw active fermentation? Second, the tap water you use, is it city water treated with chlorine?

I ask as these are two issue I had that caused me to dump beer. I had a light lager that I used saved yeast without a starter and I took 5 days before fermentation took off. That batch had a sour note to it and was not nice to drink. The other was a hefe that tasted like a Band-Aid. I used tap water for that one and now use Camden tablets and have made many hefe batches without issue.

The lag time on the stout was about 18-24hours, and the bubbling was slow through the whole process. Same with the holiday ale 18+ hours to start bubbling
As far as the water, my local homebrew supplier just said that the water was good to brew with right out of the tap. I don't have any other knowledge of the water other than that. My buddy down the street has done about 9 batches with no problems, and I've brewed 3 other batches that turned out good on the water. My question on the water is would it create some off flavors, or like in this case, catastrophic failure? Because my other beers didn't have any off flavors. So I guess I'm asking is it a hit or miss thing? Or should I notice a consistent flavor of problem? Thanks

When I had a little go around with "The Gusher" bug I just filled up the tub with water/bleach mix and treated every piece of equipment I have...every last piece including all my empty bottles, even took everything apart..ie spigots in bottling buckets and siphons. Rinsed it all off with clean water and haven't had a problem since. There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to tell where or what it is coming from. So I just treated it all.

Danger_D said:

I woke up to this in the holiday ale, pretty sure this is infection. Looking for some confirmation

Click to expand...

Thats definitely infected. And will give sour notes.

Hard to tell from the picture since it's blurry through the glass but those just look like yeast rafts to me. If they're fuzzy then it's mold; if it's kind of foamy then its all good.

Danger_D said:

I woke up to this in the holiday ale, pretty sure this is infection. Looking for some confirmation

Click to expand...

That looks exactly like the mold I was dealing with for the last several months, I found its coming from my damp basement. Where are you brewing, fermenting and bottling? What you have is most probably in the air and do to your possible under pitch the mold took over before the yeast did. I have since started fermenting in my dining room and washed everything with a strong bleach solution and haven't had any infected batches since that change.

sorry to hear about your problems.

First, bleach bomb all your gear. Something has a hold of it that regular sanitizers aren't clearing.

Second, Sanitizing is not the same as sterile so bad things may inevitably get through.

Third, clean your gear with PBW not kitchen dish soap. It is better suited for our purposes.

Fourth, make starters for your liquid yeast or use dry yeast. One vial or smack pax is underpitching for 5 gallons of regular OG. check out mrmalty.com

Fifth, make sure all items post-boil are sterile/sanitized (boil your top off water if you are an extract brewer for example).

good luck!

Hi Danger D, We feel your pain! We've all been there, just brew-on. Look at the simple stuff first, don't over-think this, and don't get discouraged. Did you have a hint of this when you were extract brewing or is this happening only since you started mashing? If it's since you started mashing what have you changed? What could you be doing differently Brew pot to Carboy? Full brew boil? Infections are a cold side problem. Do you dry Hop? How are you cooling your hot wort? Do you use a siphon-hose with a starter, not your mouth, to transfer your wort over or do you pour? You may want to take a step back for a brew or two and go back to an extract and get your confidence back and restock you brew fridge. Just some ideas. Kiwi

Love'n all this advice and encouragement! haha Thanks again.

I think you guys are right about bleach bombing everything. Im going to take it to every thing i brew with, and take everything apart. Star San isnt doing the trick to what ever has a hold to my gear. Unfortunately i did the unforgivable today... i poured the holiday ale down the drain, and while it was pouring there was question that batch was infected, smelled!
I've been picking my brain all day on what could be causing the infection. What ever is getting in there is reaking havoc fast, because it is well spoiled after two weeks of being in my bucket primary. So it does not have to do with my bottling or seconday.
I brew in my kitchen (only option). I started brewing with extract and steepinb, now i do partial mash and extract. nothing really changed. Here is the order of my beers. 1st beer great, 2nd infected stout, 3rd IPA(dry hopped) great, 4th pineapple wheat great, 5th holiday infected.
I wash all my gear before i store it in my beer closet, and wash it again when i break it out on brew day. I sanitize everything that touches my beer even if its before the boil. I have a 7 gal pot so did a full boil on the holiday ale(didn't on the stout though). I put my lid of the pot during that last min of boil to help sanitize. When i cool the wort i put it in my laudry room deep sink with a 20 lb bag of i and water. Here is where i suspect a possible infection sight. There is a small hole on my glass lid (proably know what kind im talking about) to release steam. So my wort is somewhat susceptible to open are. Never thought it woulbe be too much of a concern seeing how heat and steam would be leaving so no air should really go in. I pour my brew pot through a sanitized plastic strainer and into my fermentor. pitch my yeast and seal her up. I do siphon-hose my beer and start it with my mouth, but that can't be the problem because both batches were already long infected before the first transfer.
I would like to say the hole in the lid could be the primary suspect but i used a different pot on my stout that first got infected.
So i guess im going to bleach everything and try keep my head up, its hard becasue this infection is kicking my ass morally as a new brewer. Thanks again for all the advice ive gotten from the forum, this homebrew community is pretty damn awesome!