Two Hearted Ale Clone Yeast question

I have bought the ingredients for a 5 gallon extract clone based on several of the recipes threads. I know that you can harvest the proprietary yeast strain from any bottle of Bell's beer so I bought 2 Two Hearted Ales to harvest some of the dregs and make a starter. I also got a new Hopslam (cause I've never tried it) and I'm planning on using it as well. I also bought a packet of Safale-05 for safe keeping.

I'm new to this starter thing, and I've had mixed results. My thinking is that if I am unable to get a good amount of yeast from the Bell's I could always use the Safale-05 to supplement. I don't want a stuck fermentation since I've underpitched before and I've also read that Bells yeast isn't as healthy in the THA. The LHBS did not have any other Bell's beer from which to harvest.

My question is if I were to pitch both yeast types would this be a good idea? How would this turn out? Would I still get a pretty good beer with some Bell's character or would this experiment be a total disaster and taste awful? Should I just pitch the Safale and be done?

Bell's just needs a clean fermenting and low profile yeast to accentuate the centennial hops. I just polished off a few bottles last night and collecting the dregs from my bottles. I used wlp001 and didn't harvest (long story) so I'm dregging and will make a step starter to get my yeast back. Side by side comparison is pretty close, but B2H has more aroma than mine. No biggie. It still tastes great.

B2H yeast is probably along the lines of the Chico strain. Correct me if I'm wrong (as HBTers will) US-05, wy1056 and wlp001 are similar (same?) in that they are clean fermenting yeasts. I have no experience with us-05 in particular, but using that with the dregs of B2H in tandem can't hurt as long as your sanitation is good. Try it and see, then let us know how it turned out! Either way you'll have made beer and beer is good.

The consensus seems to be that Bells yeast is Wyeast 1272, which is their American Ale II yeast, which has very similar specs to Wyeast 1056 (American Ale), which is the same as US 05. So you really can't go wrong with using any of those if you don't use the harvested yeast.

I've posted about harvesting from bottles before, but if you've never made a starter before, you might want to start with something smaller. Although really no harm trying it as you wouldn't have much money invested in it, so maybe it's not a bad place to start. But you do need time and patience (I'd plan for starting at least 10 days before you want to brew to do it properly.

Oh and FYI, you might not want to harvest from the Hopslam as it's high alcohol so the yeast won't be in the best shape. It might work, but you are better off using a lower alcohol beer. Good luck.

I have made a starter before but of all the crazy things in brewing we do, I still don't feel I do it right. I'm very meticulous and ADD, so I always feel like I never got my sanitizing right and did something wrong. Probably just me though, because I've never had an infected brew.

I was thinking the same thing mtnagel said with the Hopslam being less than stellar on yeast health.....but what the hey...the guy at the LHBS sold me two because I'm a regular. I drank one tonight and I'll collect the dregs healthy or not and add it to the mix.

I just made a starter and have added a THA to the Hopslam dregs. Probably have another THA in a few and add that. As long as my sanitization is good I'm going to have fun with this. We'll see what happens in 24 hours. I'll probably still pitch the US-05 for good measure to experiment. Brewing day is Monday...Presidents's day is my day off.

There is no way you are going to have enough yeast by Monday, so I would definitely plan to just pitch the S05 for this batch and use the Bell's yeast for another brew day.

Pitch the US05 unless you can get your hands on some 1272, that hopslam yeast is way stressed out.

hokieguy95 said:

My question is if I were to pitch both yeast types would this be a good idea? How would this turn out? Would I still get a pretty good beer with some Bell's character or would this experiment be a total disaster and taste awful? Should I just pitch the Safale and be done?

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Chris White has a great article here about using multiple yeast strains. In the end it is your call what you do...nobody can predict how the beer will turn out...but that's largely what homebrewing is about.

A very new brewer here - so grain of salt is highly recommended, but one of the first things I tried doing was harvesting some Two Hearted yeast (I did this before I even brewed my first beer).

I collected the dregs from three bottles, stuck it in a 1L starter on a stir plate. It took it a solid week to 10 days to really develop into anything. It definitely got there... eventually, but there were no signs of any progress for a few days.

So I would think you'd want to either delay your brew day a week (HA!) or pitch in some "supporting cast members".

Agreed. Both times I've harvested from a commercial bottle/can, it took 5 days to show any signs of fermentation and then only after I was able to warm the starter to ~75F on day 4.

After much thought, I may plan to wait until next weekend and see how the starter turns out. Otherwise I have the choice to brew Monday with the US05. You guys are very right about the starter being sluggish. Not much going on in there and I used 3 bottles dregs. I think I like the idea of experimentation by mixing the strains, so I'm leaning toward that. It all depends on how healthy the starter is by next Friday.

Smart man. Your beer thanks you

mtnagel said:

Smart man. Your beer thanks you

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Great. I'm probably heading back to the HBS this week and making a bigger starter.

I wanted to share this picture of the yeast starter and see what you all think of the status. The starter is 750 ml standard wine bottle with sanitized aluminum foil as cap. It was made with three bottles of Bells dregs, and the starter in this pic is less than 24 hours old. 1 Hopslam and 2 THA. I haven't seen much action in there, but they have definitely multiplied.

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Well that is seriously impressive for only 1 day!

mtnagel said:

Well that is seriously impressive for only 1 day!

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No kidding. I was really surprised. Maybe I got some healthy bottles or the key was using multiple bottles.

Here's what it looked like this morning. Definitely some flocculation going on.


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My question now would be should I step up this starter and make a bigger one by end of week?

I would wait for the krausen to fall and any bubbling to cease before moving onto the next step. I would then add all of what you have to the next step.

Let me see if I have it all straight. I have read about making at least a liter even 2L starter but the wine bottle is what I have right now and it's less than a liter.

I am brewing on Saturday and it looks like the yeast harvest/starter is doing well. I have 5 days to go. So when I "step it up:, Since all I have is a 750ml wine bottle should I boil one more 2oz of DME cool and add to the wine bottle?

hokieguy95 said:

Let me see if I have it all straight. I have read about making at least a liter even 2L starter but the wine bottle is what I have right now and it's less than a liter.

I am brewing on Saturday and it looks like the yeast harvest/starter is doing well. I have 5 days to go. So when I "step it up:, Since all I have is a 750ml wine bottle should I boil one more 2oz of DME cool and add to the wine bottle?

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Pretty sure you Decant (pour off the fermented wort) off of the yeast and add fresh wort. You should put the bottle in the fridge for a bit to let the yeast drop out of suspension before doing so.... I am still new to making starters but that is my understanding.

hokieguy95 said:

Let me see if I have it all straight. I have read about making at least a liter even 2L starter but the wine bottle is what I have right now and it's less than a liter.

I am brewing on Saturday and it looks like the yeast harvest/starter is doing well. I have 5 days to go. So when I "step it up:, Since all I have is a 750ml wine bottle should I boil one more 2oz of DME cool and add to the wine bottle?

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Sorry, but you are going to need a bigger container. No way to grow enough yeast in that short of time in a 750 ml container.

Might I recommend a container like this one. I got mine at K Mart. You don't say if you have a stir plate, but with that container and the intermittent shaking method, you could get in 2 steps before brew day. If you got the container tomorrow and made a starter tomorrow, you could let it ferment until Thurs, make the next step, let it ferment until Friday night and then crash in the fridge overnight until Saturday morning when you decant the beer off the top and pitch the yeast. It's more compressed than I'd like (I like to let starters go at least 36-48 hours), but it could work. Here's the steps I'd recommend (I'm assuming you started with 6 billion yeast cells from 3 bottles into a 300 ml starter):

Doctor_M said:

Pretty sure you Decant (pour off the fermented wort) off of the yeast and add fresh wort. You should put the bottle in the fridge for a bit to let the yeast drop out of suspension before doing so.... I am still new to making starters but that is my understanding.

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That works if your container is smaller than your first and second step starter sizes combined, but if your container is large enough, you can combine them all together. This is actually preferred because you don't lose any yeast, like you do when you crash/decant.

mtnagel said:

That works if your container is smaller than your first and second step starter sizes combined, but if your container is large enough, you can combine them all together. This is actually preferred because you don't lose any yeast, like you do when you crash/decant.

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So just to clarify let's say a recipe calls for a 5 liter starter, I can just pitch one smack pack in 5 liters of wort and with enough time on a stir plate I'll have enough yeast?

It depends on how old your yeast is and your aeration method. Go to http://www.yeastcalculator.com/ and enter your wort properties in the top part and your smack pack info in the middle part and then play with the lower section to see how big of a starter you need to get the required number of yeast cells.

mtnagel said:

Sorry, but you are going to need a bigger container. No way to grow enough yeast in that short of time in a 750 ml container.

Might I recommend a container like this one. I got mine at K Mart.

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Ok...how's this one. Couldn't find a Rubbermaid like that but decided on a pitcher that I could vent and seal just enough to let oxygen in. It's a gallon and I have about a 1 liter in it. I just shook it in the pic.


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Unfortunately I'm not such a quick study on the yeast pitching calculator you posted. I failed to see the 7.1 DME until after getting home, So I only had 2- 2oz packets of DME. One that I used last night and one I will use tomorrow. Which means I only used 6 oz altogether. Is that going to be an issue? Should I still only boil it in 2 cups of water or should I boil it in enough water to bring the total starter up to two liters. (That will probably mean 3-4 cups). It will surely dilute the wort to a lesser gravity, but I've heard that isn't such a bad thing because it doesn't stress the yeast as much. If this isn't going to work I still have the Safale 05 on hand and can add it to the mix. I'm not worried as I'll just consider it experimental.

I've also been trying to find out what the optimum fermentation temp. range is for the Bells yeast.

I like that container. Not a bad idea!

The 7.1 oz of DME was for 2 L, but since you added 2 oz to 1 L, your starter worts gravity was only 1.021. Typically you want between 1.03 and 1.04. Ok, so I just googled it and apparently you may get more growth with the lower gravity starter (I wasn't expected that. That is if BYO is correct. They said, "yeast grow more rapidly in lower gravity wort."

So here's the new amount of yeast based on your 1 L starters (assuming intermittent stirring since you didn't mention a stir plate).



So you may not be that far off and you are better than anyone that simple pitches a Smack Pack or White Lab vial in their beer without making a starter.

For your next wort, you may want to try lowering the amount of water to get the gravity of the starter closer to the 1.037 or maybe it doesn't matter that much.

For temp range, I would go with what Wyeast 1272's range is, "Temperature Range: 60-72F, 15-22C." Of course most people say to be lower than the upper limit because fermentation will increase the temperature of the wort.

So brew day was Sunday. I don't think I ever really got enough Bells yeast to feel completely secure as there was only a very thin line of yeast in the pitcher after refrigeration on Saturday. I went ahead and experimented with using what I had of the Bell's yeast and added the US-05. It's bubbling away at about 66 degrees in my closet now. Smells very nice.

I am going to to have to get a test tube for my Hydrometer, because I have never been able to get a good accruate reading using the wine thief. Picks up too much foam and sediment and I got readings from 1.065 to 1.080. Not very reliable IMO.

I plan on leaving it for at least 2 weeks before checking the FG. Some say leave it for 3-4 weeks. I want to dry hop 1oz but am still deciding if doing it in primary or waiting until I transfer it to secondary is the best option.

No reason to transfer to secondary. I'd dry hop in primary.

Unfortunately, since you mixed the yeasts, you won't be able to harvest the Bell's yeast. Well I guess you could, but it won't be pure.

I think some brewers from bells have suggested you use the yeast from their best brown ale instead of THA because it's the same strain but they arent as stressed after a 7% ABV beer as well as covered in hop oils. I know I'm late but if anyone wants to know there it is.

Thanks for the above responses. Yeah....I know all about the weaker Bells beers, but I couldn't find a bottle of Bells Amber until half way through the process. All I had was THA and a couple Hopslams. I will definately do it differently next go around. I guess that last 5-7 days I will add the last Oz of Centennial, once it's fairly close to being done. If anyone is interested I based the recipe off this one.
With a few modifications for my liking.

goose1873 said:

7lb DME (light or extra light)
1/2 lb. - Caramel/Crystal Malt (15L)
1/2 lb. - CaraPils

Hop Schedule (47 IBU)

1/2 oz. - Centennial (60 min.)
1/2 oz. - Centennial (45 min.)
1/2 oz. - Centennial (30 min.)
1/2 oz. - Centennial (15 min.)
1/2 oz. - Centennial (flameout)
1 oz. - Centennial (Dry Hop)

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Used 7.5 lbs extra light DME
And I could only find Crystal Malt in 20L

My hops schedule was:
1.0 oz Centennial [9.60 %] (60 min)
1.5 oz Centennial [9.60 %] (15 min)
1.5 oz Centennial [9.60 %] (5 min)
1.0 oz Centennial [9.60 %] (1 min)
1.0 oz Centennial [9.60 %] (Dry hop)

That hop schedule got it closer to 55 IBUs. Which is close to the real thing.

It's been in primary for just over a week now. Still some tiny activity in the Airlock. I don't have great temperature control, but it has been fairly steady around 65-66 the whole week. My plan is to let it finish and then clean up for another two weeks, ending with the dry hop.

So I bottled this last night after 3 weeks in the primary.

I fermented this with both Safale 05 and the Bells Yeast. So far the experiment is good. Sample tasted nice for a flat beer and compared to a bottle of Two Hearted, it was as close as I could tell. Color was very close, but of course much more hazy.

It's a little "green" and I'm sure with conditioning will even out. In a couple of months I should be able to do a valid taste test to compare the real thing.

One thing I was disappointed about was that I lost a whole lot of beer and there was a lot of sediement. I had about 4.7 gallons instead of a 5 gallon batch.

It's been almost 3 weeks and I tried one last night. I am very pleased with the results. My beer tasted as close to THA as I can tell. The finish was a bit more dry and bitter than THA, but that could be because it's young or possibly because I fermented to about 1.009. Kinda made my mouth pucker more on the finish. It'll probably mellow out.

I'd say the combination of the Bell's yeast and the US-05 was a success.

My beer was of course more cloudy than THA and might be a shade darker. But it was beautful color.

The only photo I have is the sample from bottling day.

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I'll have to post some picture comparisons when I get time.


Cheers!

When I made my Two Hearted clone I used yeast harvested from the dregs of four bottles of Two Hearted. I started out with a pint starter and ramped it up with a quart followed by another. The beer turned out great, the characteristics were identical. I think the Bell's yeast doesn't attenuate as much as 05, you're going to lack a little character if you use 05/001/1056.