Tiramisu Stout Input Please

All,

Recently back to brewing after about a 4 year break and am chomping at the bit to brew a bunch again. I cannot believe how alive these forums are with activity and am happy to start being a part of it.

I am kicking around the idea of brewing a Tiramisu stout that could loosely hit all the major components of a Tiramisu. My first thought was to brew a type of milk stout as one of the core components of a Tiramisu is the milk/cheese taste and texture. I was planning on adding the cocoa in the final minutes of the boil. Also planning on adding both brandy and 4C espresso to the secondary. Any ideas or input anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

Questions I had

What are your thoughts around the chocolate amount? I really want a strong, double chocolate flavor.

Brandy! Anyone think that two cups will add anything? Is this too much? I was also kicking around the idea of using oak chips instead of brandy with an extended aging time to replicate the wood aspects of the brandy in the desert.



Recipe: Tiramisu Stout
Brewer: Seth
Asst Brewer: Yetti
Style: Sweet Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 32.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 57.69 %
1.00 lb Lactose (3.0 SRM) Grain 7.69 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (3.0 SRM) Grain 7.69 %
0.75 lb Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.77 %
0.50 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
0.25 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
0.25 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
0.50 oz Phoenix [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 13.1 IBU
0.50 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 cup Brandy (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
4.00 cup Brewed Espresso (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
8.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 16.25 qt of water at 165.3 F 150.0 F


Thanks all and I appreciate any input you might have on this.

Seth

My thought is that you have a ton of stuff going on there. You could pair down the 2 row and 6 row to just 2 row. I don't know that you need wheat, carapils, flaked oats, flaked barley and crystal malt together. That's a lot of stuff producing thickness and head retention. You could trim it down to just 2-3 of those, like the crystal malt, wheat and flaked barley. Really depends on which ones you think are most important.

Additionally, I think 2 cups of brandy might be too much. If you do the brandy additions you may want to start out with half a cup, let it sit for a few days, taste and keep making half cup additions until you are happy. Once you get too much liquor in there you can't get it back out.

Your grain bill looks like a kitchen sink special. I've brewed plenty of those myself, some turn out good, but usually they're a flabby, tangled mess. Ask yourself what qualities you really want in the beer and what unique qualities each grain will impart.

For instance, do you need any CaraPils in this recipe? You're not trying to keep the color light, you've got plenty of other grains that can contribute to mouthfeel and head (oats, barley, AND wheat can take care of that on their own), and there'll be plenty of residual sweetness from the other grains and additions. Black patent malt - what will this give you that the roasted barley and chocolate malt don't, especially in such a small quantity? Do you need crystal 80 if you're using Special B (essentially crystal 150+)? What do you want from the wheat malt that you're not getting from the flaked oats and barley, and would you even be able to taste 2% wheat malt in ANY beer, let alone this one?

I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I'm guilty of this myself. I still have to look over some of my recipes and go "wait wait wait, what am I thinking with all this stuff?" Complex flavor profiles can come from very simple grain bills.

Looking at what you're going for, personally I'd go with something like:

10lbs Pale Ale malt
1lbs Roasted Barley
1lbs Flaked Barley OR Oats
8oz Lactose
4-8oz Special B
4-8oz Chocolate malt

+1 to ReverseApacheMaster's recommendations about the brandy. I'd try adding a little at a time and tasting it, or just do one cup on this batch and adjust in future batches. Better to undershoot than overshoot, and you can always pour your friends a shot of brandy to go along with their pint

Thanks so much for the replies and great insight on this. This really makes tons of sense.


When I began looking for milk stout base to work with I stumbled upon this tread.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/milk-stout-recipe-18262/


Which led me to this....

http://brewersconnection.com/recipes/CactusMilkStout.htm

I also thought this grain bill was crazy long but I ended up ordering all the stuff that first night after reading some peoples comments on how they liked this beer.

I am a bit torn now, I might just end up brewing another batch alongside it with your recommendations and see how it goes. I have also added 2 oz. of chocolate extract at secondary.

Revised recipe

Recipe: Tiramisu Stout Revised
Brewer: Seth
Asst Brewer: Yetti
Style: Sweet Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 32.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.50 lb Golden Promise (2.0 SRM) Grain 69.39 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (3.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 6.12 %
0.50 lb Lactose (3.0 SRM) Grain 4.08 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4.08 %
0.50 oz Phoenix [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
0.50 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 6.6 IBU
2.00 cup Sweet Marsala Wine (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 oz Chocolate Extract (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
4.00 cup Brewed Espresso (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
4.00 oz Dark Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12.25 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 15.31 qt of water at 165.3 F 150.0 F

I do have one thought, and it is really only a thought. I have been reading more and more about Golden Promise and its uses as a great base malt. It is, from what I understand, suppose to lend a really unique rich body which may help. Though from the look of your recipe, it will be plenty rich enough. Just something I thought about and atleast give you a nugget for thought.

Cheers and best of luck! It is a solid recipe.
Kyle

I agree, you may want to use golden promise or maris otter as a base rather than standard pale malt.

I have updated the grain bill to include the golden promise as the base malt. I will be brewing this recipe this weekend. I will post both pictures and results of the brew.

Thanks again so much for everyones input and if anyone has any final comments before this weekend please fire away. Everyone has helped to make this beer better!

Seth

I've never heard of brandy in a tiramisu. Personally I like to use Kahlua, Rum and Grand Mariner in my tiramisu recipe. Instead of using brandy, what about a rum extract? I think you would get more flavor from the extract.

seth711 said:

I might just end up brewing another batch alongside it with your recommendations and see how it goes.

Click to expand...

Go for it! Worst case scenario, you could use one for making beer floats. Putting some ice cream into a pint will make people forget all its problems.

Schweaty,

I am not sure when and why I thought they were made with brandy, I had always made mine that way. Upon further research I see what you are saying, most recipes are either made with sweet Marsala wine or Rum. I think I am going to go into that direction as I want to really embrace the core authentic components of a tirimisu. If I am staying with authentic I think the choice would be using Marsala.

Do you or anyone have any recommendations on amounts to add for the sweet Marsala? I was thinking 2-3 cups since this would be much less potent then the planned 1 cup of brandy.


Thanks so much for the great input from all on this.

Seth

Seth,

Did you end up making this revised recipe, if so, how did it turn out?

Best Regards,

seth711 said:

Thanks so much for the replies and great insight on this. This really makes tons of sense.


When I began looking for milk stout base to work with I stumbled upon this tread.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/milk-stout-recipe-18262/


Which led me to this....

http://brewersconnection.com/recipes/CactusMilkStout.htm

I also thought this grain bill was crazy long but I ended up ordering all the stuff that first night after reading some peoples comments on how they liked this beer.

I am a bit torn now, I might just end up brewing another batch alongside it with your recommendations and see how it goes. I have also added 2 oz. of chocolate extract at secondary.

Revised recipe

Recipe: Tiramisu Stout Revised
Brewer: Seth
Asst Brewer: Yetti
Style: Sweet Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.82 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 32.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.50 lb Golden Promise (2.0 SRM) Grain 69.39 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (3.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 6.12 %
0.50 lb Lactose (3.0 SRM) Grain 4.08 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4.08 %
0.50 oz Phoenix [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
0.50 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 6.6 IBU
2.00 cup Sweet Marsala Wine (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 oz Chocolate Extract (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
4.00 cup Brewed Espresso (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
4.00 oz Dark Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12.25 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 15.31 qt of water at 165.3 F 150.0 F

Click to expand...

yes please, an update would be greatly appreciated

[I have not brewed the new recipe yet but I just re-brewed the original since it was such a huge hit. I would give hte new version a try if you like but I can assure you that the first recipe is REALLY good.[/I]