Pointers on brewing Asian (Chinese, Japanese) style lagers

Basically, I want to produce something similiar to Tsing-Tao (especially tsing-tao) or other Asian-style lagers that rely heavily on rice. I've never brewed a lager before, but want to start here when I do.

Any suggestions on ingredients, amounts, yeast strains, or brewing techniques?

Real men drink Soju

I don't have experience with Japanese styles but I do have experience with rice. I'd advise using Minute Rice and tossing it right into the mash. Off brand or bulk Minute Rice should cost you a little less than grain by weight. At Sams Club I get Minute Rice in slightly over 4lb boxes for about $6.

If you go the regular rice path, you can save a lot of money but it's a bit of a pain. Boil it in enough water that it's like thickish soup but won't dry out after 30 mins of boiling. After boiling, add water directly to the rice soup to get up to mash volume and heat to strike temp. Now all you have to do is treat your mash water like any mash and ride off into the sunset just like a standard AG batch.

If you use a lot of rice, you may need rice hulls or a brew-in-bag method to prevent stuck sparges. You also have to make sure you use a grain with enough diastatic power to convert the amount of rice you're adding or I've heard you can add some amalyse enzyme at the mash but I've never done that.

Wow, there is almost nothing online about brewing them. It is so bad that THIS is the top thread on google.

I did find you a couple Tsingtao clones

A Chinese Lager which has a light malt aroma.

Ingredients
# 6 3/4 lb. American 6 row
# 1lb. Rice Hulls
# 1 1/2 Lb. Rice
# 1/2 Lb. Crystal 10L
# 1 Lb. Rice syrup
# 1/3 oz. (9 grams)Tettnanger
# 3/4 oz. (21 grams) Saaz
# 1/4 oz. Saaz
# 1 tsp. Irish Moss
# Wyeast Pilsen Lager yeast
# 3/4 cup Corn Sugar
Directions
Grind rice and cook untill soft(about 20 min).Mash all grains together including the hulls and rice for 30 min at 122f.Raise to 150 for 60 min. Sparge and accumulate 1 1/5 gallons of wort. Bring to a boil and remove from heat.Add the rice syrup,Tettnanger,and 1/5 oz.of Saaz.Add water to get 2 1/2 gallons.Boil for 50 min. and add The rest of the Saaz and the Irish Moss.Boil for ten more min.Cool,add water to make 5 gallons and add yeast.
Comments
# Primary 7 days
# Secondary: 1 week
# O.G.- 1.048
# F.G.- 1.010
# Alcohol-4 1/2%

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And Scroll through this thread.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10683

The thing is a beer is a beer is a beer. There aren't really any special "tips" inherent to brewing this style of beer as opposed to any other rice adjunted lagers, except maybe the use a yeast that would super dry out the beer (which would probably be mentioned in the recipes I posted).

You'll have to decide how you want to handle the rice aspect of it, use rice syrup, a rice syrup solid, or mash the rice yourself. If the latter is the case just do a search for mashing rice adjuncts.

Personally I probably would go for the syrup myself.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Yeah Revvy... that's my delimma. The topic of asian-style beers seems to reside in the black hole of internet knowledge. And it seems most home brewers either aren't that interested in them, or are - like me - daunted by the lack of info.

I guess what I'm looking for mainly are suggestions on the amount of rice to use (percent of grain bill), as most asian beers obviously use quite a bit. And possibly hop varieties.

I'm also curious as to the type of rice. I know many think rice is 'tasteless', but it's my opinion (could be wrong) that alot of what gives (true) asian beers their distinctive tastes compared to other rice-adjunct lagers is the rice itself. Personally, I'm big into ethnic & especially asian cooking, and know from that experience that there's a pretty big flavor difference in different types of rice.

whatever rice i use, it will be the real deal. I'll do a cereal mash.

Regardless, if I meet with any success, I'll post my experiences here.

In terms of how much to use, if you aren;t going by an already established recipe like the one I posted above, when I amd figure out a recipe of my own, of a particular style I look at multiple recipes and try to see how much they use. If a bunch of recipes call for 1.5 pounds or close to that of rice, that's how much I will use when playing with the numbers in beersmith.

Mucho appreciated Revvy.
Guess I'll start w/ American light lagers & go from there, erring on the larger side for rice. And take the clone you posted (thanks for that) into consideration as well.

Well... seems I'm making some headway here in my research. I found this article which focuses on what appears to be the primary aroma hop in TsingTao - Tsingtaoduhua. Probably hard to come by here, but the article should offer good advice for suitable alternatives:

http://www.scientificsocieties.org/jib/papers/2005/G-2005-0718-291.pdf

ETA: It looks like Cluster, which is the hop variety Tsingtaoduhau originated from, would be an excellent locally-available substitute

Isn't this beer research fun???

I don't know if you know, but after the "supposed" hop shortage of a couple years ago, a lot of new hops hit the market, including some from China. There may be some surprises in the marketplace.

Revvy said:

Isn't this beer research fun???

I don't know if you know, but after the "supposed" hop shortage of a couple years ago, a lot of new hops hit the market, including some from China. There may be some surprises in the marketplace.

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Actually... YES! It's like searching for hidden treasure!

And no, I didn't know that Are the hops you're referring to common varieties we're accustomed to grown in china, actual Chinese cultivars named as such, or Chinese cultivars incorrectly named something they're not?

Making headway on the rice. Though I haven't found anything concrete, it would seem that short grained 'japonica' rice is most likely being used. Possibly 'broken rice' sourced on the cheap as a byproduct of the sushi industry. Same thing preferred by many saki producers.

Maybe I'm propagating a myth, but I was told that Germans built and ran the Tsing-tao brewery until it was nationalized (probably during cultural revolution).

When I use rice, I always use generic minute rice. Easy conversion, cheap, and lends zero-ish flavor to the beer (not what you're looking for, I suppose). Good for a cream ale or light lager tho.

passedpawn said:

Maybe I'm propagating a myth, but I was told that Germans built and ran the Tsing-tao brewery until it was nationalized (probably during cultural revolution).

When I use rice, I always use generic minute rice. Easy conversion, cheap, and lends zero-ish flavor to the beer (not what you're looking for, I suppose). Good for a cream ale or light lager tho.

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No, you're not. Matter of fact, from my reading, I've learned that TsingTao used to comform to the German's legal requirements to use only grain at one time due to this fact. So there was no rice at that time! But obviously things have changed, and the TsingTao I like (and want to emulate) most definitely uses rice.

Zero flavor is, as you said, not what I'm looking for. Minute rice is a long grain rice, which is actually a different subspecies (indica vs japonica). Out of curiosity, I just opened up a bottle of sake I had sitting around (also made from japonica), and maybe it's my imagination, but I SWEAR... some of the fragrance there is what I remember being on the tip of the nose of asian beers I like.

I'm probably going to go with either Calrose, or Nishiki. Both are japonica varities grown in Cali. Labeled as medium grain, but they're basically just long short-grains. I would look for a china import... but I don't trust it to not be processed with toxic chemicals.

So...

based on many of the tasting reviews I've read, as well as my own thoughts on taste, as well as the German heritage of the beer...

I'm thinking the base malt just about has to be pilsen.

The book "Clone Brews" has a Tsing Tao recipe, along with Singha, Kirin, Sapporo, and Asahi if I recall. I got it from the library and made the Kirin for my wife. It wasn't the best beer I ever made but it sure did taste like Kirin.

Oh really. Clonebrews is online via google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=CS...ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tsing Tao&f=false

Click on the page 21 link..After Tsin Tao if you keep scrolling is Bin Tong Pilsner lager.

Cool references! Thanks guys.

I think I'm on to something now.
Tell me what you think for an AG:

75% German Pils Malt
25% short/medium grain japonica rice (cereal mashed)
Cluster hops for bittering
Either more cluster or Northern Brewer for aroma.
Total IBUs around 25
WLP830 yeast (White labs German Lager)
mash for med-light body (150 temp, 60 mins)
ABV 4.75

So you are into Asians. I lived in Japan for a total of eight years. Upon returning stateside, I longed for the dry full tasting, ice cold lagers that I found in Japan. Kirin, Sapporo, Orion, in numerous styles made me homesick for the land of the rising sun. My initial reaction was to go to the local beer store and by a Kirin. THIS IS NOT KIRIN. THIS IS BUDWEISER which is precisely why you don't see much about it in the threads or on the net. There is very little interest in brewing it because what folks in the U.S. are tasting are NOT Japenese rice fueled lagers.

I have brewed the one from the clone book. The recipe looks something like this.

7.5 lbs pilsner
1.5 lbs rice flakes (it actually called for rice syrup solids)
.8 lbs of German light crystal malt 2.5L (I use carapils)

Saaz for bittering the Saaz and hersbrucker at 15 and like 5 min to hit around 17 IBUs

I have done this twice now. I am getting close but something is not quite right. I know that in the case of Kirin Ichiban, they only use the first runnings. I haven't tried that yet. Who knows what kind of hops are really used. Had I been brewing when in Japan or had I known I was going to start I would have taken a tour of their breweries. I do know that they are SUPER secret and very competitive in the beer industry. Beer is pricey over there (my main stay was Orion at around $4 a pop (12 ounce). That was the low end stuff. However, the fact that I could play 18 holes of golf, at night, with beer vending machines spread throughout (and in a four person golf cart) made the price irrelevent.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you want to discuss more. If my next batch (next week) turns out good, I will post it. Making some slight modifications. Good luck!!!!!

Hi J8D

I think drop the crystal and you will be closer. Most of these dry lagers do not have any crystal in them. Something like this would be nice i think:
70% Pils malt
30% Rice
Mash really low like 148/149F for 90mins and boil for 90mins
Hop to about 20ibu's

cheers

I tried making a Chinese clone beer that came out really good based on the suggestions here. see the recipe here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/chinese-beer-clone-395547/#post4977796