Mass bulk hops?

Would it be worth while and possible to order a bulk hop group buy? Does anyone know what the minimum order is usually around to order directly from a hop grower and to save a significant amount of cash?

I think if we had enough interest it could work. the hard part would be deciding on which variety to get. We have a pretty diverse group of brewers here. It would have to be a common, versatile hop.

I would be in, providing we have enough people.

For your info: Prices are (in my opinion) only nominally cheaper ($1/lb or so) than buying per pound at hopsdirect/freshops. Bulk whole cones are a little cheaper than that.

Although if you're still interested, we had 160 lbs, so it could probably be easily done. Sucks for the person in charge having to front the bill and make sure they get all their money back.

not trying to question you, but i find it hard to believe you only save $1 or so per pound. does that mean hopsdirect/freshhops is currently paying $29 a pound and selling them for $32?

When Sam Adams starting offering hops at cost to other breweries at the beginning of the hop shortage, they said the cost was $5.50 a pound or something like that. how much do you think there paying now?

even if we could get enough bulk to pay $15-20 a pound that would be a hugh savings

Yup. The bulk pricing they quoted us was around $29/lb not including shipping.


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bkov said:

not trying to question you, but i find it hard to believe you only save $1 or so per pound. does that mean hopsdirect/freshhops is currently paying $29 a pound and selling them for $32?

When Sam Adams starting offering hops at cost to other breweries at the beginning of the hop shortage, they said the cost was $5.50 a pound or something like that. how much do you think there paying now?

even if we could get enough bulk to pay $15-20 a pound that would be a hugh savings

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The price Sam Adams had paid for those hops was before the big price increases of last year. Those $5.50/lb hops are probably $20+/lb now.

bkov said:

not trying to question you, but i find it hard to believe you only save $1 or so per pound. does that mean hopsdirect/freshhops is currently paying $29 a pound and selling them for $32?

When Sam Adams starting offering hops at cost to other breweries at the beginning of the hop shortage, they said the cost was $5.50 a pound or something like that. how much do you think there paying now?

even if we could get enough bulk to pay $15-20 a pound that would be a hugh savings

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Hops direct and Freshops are wholesalers not retailers.

BigEd said:

The price Sam Adams had paid for those hops was before the big price increases of last year. Those $5.50/lb hops are probably $20+/lb now.

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+1 remember Large breweries like Sam Adams contracts the hops out for several years.

Austinhomebrew said:

Hops direct and Freshops are wholesalers not retailers.

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I don't think he ever said otherwise.

Yeah, that price was contracted the previous year when everyone was paying around 10 a pound anywhere.

Freshops doesn't buy hops, they grow them. It used to be that the 11lb bags were about a 20% savings over the individual poundage but I don't see anyone advertising them anymore.

PseudoChef said:

I don't think he ever said otherwise.

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He suggested that they BUY hops at 29 bucks and sell...

PseudoChef said:

I don't think he ever said otherwise.

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Nevermind. Continue on. It's none of my business.

Bkov,
Give hopunion a call and see what they can do for you on bulk to see if it's worth it to you.

Austinhomebrew said:

Hops direct and Freshops are wholesalers not retailers.

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Wholesaler: "Person or firm that buys large quantity of goods from various producers or vendors , warehouses them, and resells to retailers ."

Retailer: "A business which sells goods to the consumer , as opposed to a wholesaler or supplier which normally sell their goods to another business. Retailers include large businesses such as Wal-Mart, and also smaller, non-chain locations run independently such as a family-run bookstore."

so freshhops and hopsdirect selling to consumers would make them retailers

Bobby_M said:

He suggested that they BUY hops at 29 bucks and sell...

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Ahh...gotcha. Makes sense...thanks.

i was asking if thats what was suggested

but now i see what pseudochef was saying in his first post, i misread it at first

The demand probably just dictates that growers that sell to end users don't have any reason to discount bulk. They have no surplus to worry about moving.

Austinhomebrew said:

Hops direct and Freshops are wholesalers not retailers.

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They sell to consumers like me, that makes them retailers. They may also have a wholesale business where they sell to other retailers. I still don't understand the point you are trying to make other than you can't compete with their prices because the sell larger volumes.

To cut to the chase...

As of 9/16 when I got their last price list, HopUnion was selling T-90 pellets of Centennial, Hallertau and Cascade (and most of what they list other than really high-alpha and organic varieties) for $21.85 a lb with a 11 lb container order. There was no price break for a 44 lb container.

Comparatively, most of Freshops works out to $32.00 a lb and Freshops is (I bleieve) only whole hops so if you factor in a 10% utilization increase, you're looking at $35.20 a lb at Freshops for the same effective quantity of hops.

Price difference is $13.35 a lb.

But you've got to shell out for 11 lbs at a time...

Gordie.

Seems pretty reasonable to me and I'd be able to ditch 11 pounds at a single brewclub meeting but I wonder what the shipping would be. Too bad I already have over a pound of Centennial I need to brew with first.

LayMeister said:

They sell to consumers like me, that makes them retailers. They may also have a wholesale business where they sell to other retailers. I still don't understand the point you are trying to make other than you can't compete with their prices because the sell larger volumes.

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That wasn't my point. I sell 3 tons a year. That is a large volume.

They sell to anyone at a wholesale price. Wholesale and retail is not totally defined by who you sell to. It is also defined by price.

Austinhomebrew said:

That wasn't my point. I sell 3 tons a year. That is a large volume.

They sell to anyone at a wholesale price. Wholesale and retail is not totally defined by who you sell to. It is also defined by price.

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I'm afraid they are totally defined by who you sell to. Price is related, but not a defining factor. Here are just few definitions. You will find that all define a retailer as one who sells direct to consumers.

Courtesy Websters:

retailer

Main Entry: 1re·tail
Pronunciation: \ˈrē-ˌtāl, especially for 2 also ri-ˈtāl\
Function: verb
Date: 15th century

transitive verb
1 : to sell in small quantities directly to the ultimate consumer

wholesaler

Main Entry: whole·sal·er
Pronunciation: \ˈhōl-ˌsā-lər\
Function: noun
Date: 1857

: a merchant middleman who sells chiefly to retailers, other merchants, or industrial, institutional, and commercial users mainly for resale or business use

And from Wikipedia:

Retailing consists of the sale of goods or merchandise from a fixed location, such as a department store or kiosk, or by post, in small or individual lots for direct consumption by the purchaser.

Wholesaling is the sale of goods or merchandise to retailers, to industrial, commercial, institutional, or other professional business users, or to other wholesalers and related subordinated services.

And from the Business Dictionary:

retail

business of selling products and services to the public as the ultimate consumer. Retailing involves selling many different products and services, either from a store location or in direct selling through vending machines and in-home presentations, mail order, and so on.

thanks for the price idea, so to make it worth while i would need about 11 people in the group buy then we would be able to get 2 or 3 varieties and each person would take a pound of each. only thing would be finding 11 people in the same area so we could get it shipped to one spot, then distribute it there instead reshipping each persons there share

Once they get back to us on the shipping, I'll try to remember to let you know.,

When the dictionary gets cited in a thread you know it is going downhill...

Why is everyone getting testy here? We're talking about the distribution of dried flowers here. If you can purchase (and use) bulk hops cheaper from some dude hanging out on the street, I say do it. Who cares if he's labeled as a wholesaler or retail. Let's just call him and entreprenuer and be done with it.
Personally, I buy in bulk the varieties that I use consistantly. The ones that I don't, I don't mind paying extra to purchase only a couple ounces.

Warrior is/was trying to get this together. Give him a shout. He has whole/pellet prices as well as different varieties.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/bulk-grain-order-central-pa-maryland-54161/index7.html

I've been very pleased with my HopsDirect hops from last year, and am eager to order again this year. They're quite a nice retailer. A bulk buy from them wouldn't work well, though, as they limit to 1 or 2 lb per variety.

The info on the 11lb packs is interesting. I'll also watch that order thread.

Chriso said:

I've been very pleased with my HopsDirect hops from last year, and am eager to order again this year. They're quite a nice retailer. A bulk buy from them wouldn't work well, though, as they limit to 1 or 2 lb per variety.

The info on the 11lb packs is interesting. I'll also watch that order thread.

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You can bulk buy from them - just takes an email/phone call.

Ah, interesting! Good to know! Looks like they added forums a couple weeks ago, too. Very interesting indeed.

I have nothing against Forrest or AHS at all but it seems to get contentious whenever we talk about circumventing retail, comparing prices, etc. I can certainly appreciate why this would be, but the forum is more about the community of homebrewers and not the vendors. I think the internet is both a blessing and curse for retailers. It opened up the customer base to the whole world, but now consumers have a lot of power to price compare and even buy at wholesale volumes above the typical retailer.

You could argue that if enough group buying happens, the LHBS (real and virtual) are potentially driven out of business. At that point, all you have is group buys. 1200 viles of white labs anyone? I contend that capitalism works. People will compare price with value and make their choice.

Bobby_M said:

I have nothing against Forrest or AHS at all but it seems to get contentious whenever we talk about circumventing retail, comparing prices, etc. I can certainly appreciate why this would be, but the forum is more about the community of homebrewers and not the vendors. I think the internet is both a blessing and curse for retailers. It opened up the customer base to the whole world, but now consumers have a lot of power to price compare and even buy at wholesale volumes above the typical retailer.

You could argue that if enough group buying happens, the LHBS (real and virtual) are potentially driven out of business. At that point, all you have is group buys. 1200 viles of white labs anyone? I contend that capitalism works. People will compare price with value and make their choice.

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Don't get me wrong. You should buy what you can where you can find the best deal. I am not upset that you are doing this. As a matter of fact count me in. More buying power, right?

Just keep in mind that if it all comes down to group buys of grain and hops, and reculturing yeast, all LHBS are there for is advice. They won't last long just giving advice. I want all LHBS to survive through this.

This concludes my PSA.

Forrest

Just to finish a thought - shipping an 11 lb container from California to NY is about $16 for UPS ground (5 days). Shipping a 3 lb container is about $10.50. Shipping 1 lb is about $8.

If you figure on a couple pounds shipping could add $3 -$4 a lb and you're still getting a $10 price break per pound even if you're doing it cross-country.

On another subject - god bless my LHBS. Wonderful folks, knowledgeable and I go out of my way to support them and what they're doing. That said - bulk grain and hops can be up to 50% less retail before shipping and I feel I'd be irresponsible if I didn't take advantage of those opportunities when I can (Brewer's Supply Group - bulk grain - is less than 2 hours from my house). In the end, I bring more business to the LHBS because I'm brewing more and I also don't feel bad about comparison shopping and letting them know I'm keeping an eye on their margin to see if I'm getting gouged. The honorable shop-keeps (I'm of the opinion Forrest is a shining example of this) appreciate it because people then become aware of the value their LHBS is giving them - which results in referrals, loyalty, etc...

Ok. I'm done.

I would be interested in getting a pound of cascade.