Maris Otter vs. domestic 2 row experiment

So I decided to try an experiment for two purposes: to train my palate and to determine if Maris Otter is worth the extra money. I used Orfy’s oaked SMaSH recipe once as written and then again substituting domestic two row for the Otter. The recipe basically just base malt, Fuggles, and yeast. I chose Wyeast English Ale 1098.

Despite my best initial intention, the two brews weren’t exactly equal. Basically that’s because I didn’t like the first recipe. The one with the Maris Otter. It came out sweet, as if it had been fermented at too high a temp. The thing is, I can’t see that it could be possible. I brewed it back in late February, which is very much within a Canadian prairie winter. I keep my thermostat at 69º degrees in the winter and nowhere in the house does it get higher than that. In any case, both brews were made under similar cicumstances.

The only real difference in techniques is related to the contact time of the oak. I had failed to double the amount of oak that Orfy called for to scale his 5 gallon batch to 10. The MO recipe only had one ounce of chips for one week but the domestic batch had it for about three.

I just tapped the keg of domestic and it’s really good. The beer isn’t sweet at all and the hop flavor is very smooth and pronounced. This beer is really clear yet the MO was cloudy even after several weeks in the keezer.

I used a smack pack of Wyeast for the first 10 gallons (the MO recipe) and then washed and reused it for the next 10 so the difference isn’t due to the yeast. Both brews fermented beside my bed when it was cold enough out to require continuous indoor heat. After fermentation they were moved to the basement where it’s about 52º to 55º. I used the exact same batch sparge method on the same equipment for both batches.

I’ve used Maris Otter many times for English and Irish Ales and have never found it to be that sweet. Is it possibly something wrong with the grains I got that caused this? Fermentation wasn’t really violent for either batch so I can’t see an elevated internal temp causing esthers. Besides, the second, better batch, had the washed yeast. The fermentation would have been more vigorous there.

[FONT=&quot]Anyway, I’d like your input. Help me understand what I’ve experienced here. [/FONT]

Did you document your mash temps accurately? I use two different base grains, MO and Pils... that's it. The MO beers ferment out just fine and clear quickly. Mash temp is the only variable I can imagine.

I have been thinking about doing something similar all of the recipes I have wanted to brew are calling for m.o or pilsn but I have been getting 2 row because it more available in my area.

Pardon my ignorance, but how much of a difference is there between MO and US 2 row? I do PM's and can only get MO from my LHBS. Should I be looking for a US 2 row source for all my American style brews?

On partial mash, you won't really notice much of a difference. For full base bills, MO is going to have a more malt flavor than domestic. Think of 10lbs of MO like it was 9.5lbs of domestic 2 row and 1/2lb of Crystal 10L.

Bobby_M said:

Did you document your mash temps accurately? I use two different base grains, MO and Pils... that's it. The MO beers ferment out just fine and clear quickly. Mash temp is the only variable I can imagine.

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Here are the notes I have for each:

Maris Otter - Mashed in with 181 degree water and the mash went to 160 degrees. Stirred it down to 158 and closed the lid. Eventually went down to 150 so I added a gallon of 180 water but it didn't come up much. The batch was probably fully converted by the time the temp came down.

Domestic - Mashed in with 174 degree water but got a good pre-heat (of the MLT) at 150 and 160 degrees. Mash went to 160 but I had to leave for 1/2 hour. Came back and temp hadn't dropped. Added cool water and stirred and the temps went stupid. Down to 141. Stirred, up to 158, stirred, down to 140... etc. Finally stabilized at 158.


So based on this it looks like the domestic should be the sweeter brew!

Fingers -- did you use the same quantity of yeast in each case? It sounds like you might have used more in the second batch. If so, how did your attenuation compare? I wonder if your difference in sweetness is a fermentation issue rather than a recipe issue.

Also, FWIW, I am sold on using MO in beers where that malty profile is characteristic, such as English, Scottish, Irish ales, pale ales, etc. I have experimented with using 2-row and some specialty malts for the same flavour and aroma, but nothing really replaces a good British pale malt like MO. I think it is worth the extra cost for some styles.

FlyGuy said:

Fingers -- did you use the same quantity of yeast in each case? It sounds like you might have used more in the second batch. If so, how did your attenuation compare? I wonder if your difference in sweetness is a fermentation issue rather than a recipe issue.

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I definitely would have used more in the second (domestic) batch but I did make a starter for the first batch. I didn't think there was a direct correlation between volume of yeast and attenuation. As long as sufficient quantities are pitched, the yeast should do its stuff until all the sugar is gone, no?

Fingers said:

I definitely would have used more in the second (domestic) batch but I did make a starter for the first batch. I didn't think there was a direct correlation between volume of yeast and attenuation. As long as sufficient quantities are pitched, the yeast should do its stuff until all the sugar is gone, no?

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I would agree with that completely.

But sometimes things just go wrong in a batch. However, it is much less likely that problems occur and fermentation stalls if you start with a really big pitch of yeast. Just something to consider.

Fingers said:

Here are the notes I have for each:

Maris Otter - Mashed in with 181 degree water and the mash went to 160 degrees. Stirred it down to 158 and closed the lid. Eventually went down to 150 so I added a gallon of 180 water but it didn't come up much. The batch was probably fully converted by the time the temp came down.

Domestic - Mashed in with 174 degree water but got a good pre-heat (of the MLT) at 150 and 160 degrees. Mash went to 160 but I had to leave for 1/2 hour. Came back and temp hadn't dropped. Added cool water and stirred and the temps went stupid. Down to 141. Stirred, up to 158, stirred, down to 140... etc. Finally stabilized at 158.


So based on this it looks like the domestic should be the sweeter brew!

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I know this thread is a little old now, but I was thinking about using something different than MO lately - prices seem to be getting up there...

Reading this post has definitely raised my eyebrows....

I've got to say, those temps are way too high. I've never converted beyond 154 for an English ale -- maybe 156 for a Belgian. Most mash temps for me are 148 - 152. Never more than a degree, maybe 2, drop during the entire conversion. 148 gets me a fairly dry beer. 152 gets me a much noticeably sweeter finish.

Fingers said:

I didn't think there was a direct correlation between volume of yeast and attenuation. As long as sufficient quantities are pitched, the yeast should do its stuff until all the sugar is gone, no?

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Not exactly. Pitching rates definitely affect the final product. Underpitching can decrease attenuation and increase ester and fusel production. Overpitching can mute esters too much, and cause other off flavors. The point is, pitching rates can and do routinely affect beer flavor.

The MO that's too sweet v the American pale malt may have been underpitched, and hence underattenuated. How big of a starter did you make for the first beer? Was a stir plate involved? What was the FG for each?

I would love to see this exact experiment run again with MO vs 2-row w/biscuit vs 2-row w/aromatic. My goal would be to see if 2-row with small additions of either aromatic or biscuit would be comparable to a full MO malt bill.

What do you guys think?

I'm going to post my experiences here since this thread came up in a search and I have something to contribute.

As another poster mentioned the mash temps used for the MO were really high and that would account for the sweeter beer.
Either I'm missing something or the others posting here all seemed to overlook that (except for lsnadon).... I made two batches of beirmunchers esb recently and the first came out too sweet....I mashed it way up around 157... The second one I aimed more for 152-153 and it was noticably less drier and better IMHO... both were done with 2 row and some of that 2 row was toasted in the oven the same way for both batches... again only change was mash temps. I did this on purpose to get a feel for how the temps effect things.

augiedoggy said:

I'm going to post my experiences here since this thread came up in a search and I have something to contribute.

As another poster mentioned the mash temps used for the MO were really high and that would account for the sweeter beer.
Either I'm missing something or the others posting here all seemed to overlook that (except for lsnadon).... I made two batches of beirmunchers esb recently and the first came out too sweet....I mashed it way up around 157... The second one I aimed more for 152-153 and it was noticably less drier and better IMHO... both were done with 2 row and some of that 2 row was toasted in the oven the same way for both batches... again only change was mash temps. I did this on purpose to get a feel for how the temps effect things.

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Yeah, doing this experiment without good control of mash temperatures means it's pretty useless as a comparison. Mash temperature is a critical element in determining the malt character of the final beer. Oaking the beer also sounds like it would give a big variation, or hide some of the underlying taste.

It's funny that this was bumped when I was considering doing this for an IPA smash recipe. Glad I now know to also watch mash carefully.


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