A Gruit that's amazingly good!

First off, I have to say that I have been experimenting with “Gruited” Ales (historical implication is brewed with herbs, not necessarily a specific combination of herbs) for a little over a year now, and it is definitely a challenge. Ultimately, the goal is to brew a drink that you would actually choose over a store-bought beer, but there is little direct knowledge, and hardly any commercial examples to gain any insight into how to construct recipes that will really do it for you and prove to your homebrew buddies that the idea isn't worthless.

I just bottled a batch that might just stand up to all of the criticism. In fact, I liked it so much from what I tasted during bottling that I cracked open a non-carbonated, non-chilled bottle to drink after just a couple days in the bottle! And I had other good beers in the fridge to drink!

For this recipe, I went with the most well-known combination ( I don't want to say traditional, its just the most well-documented) of yarrow, wild rosemary, and myrica gale. For the malt bill, I chose to use a Belgian Brown Ale style recipe as the base and used a Dogfishhead Raison d'Etre clone recipe as inspiration. In my experience, Yarrow makes a very dry, tart end product so I mashed pretty high to create balance – it worked!

The recipe:

Note: My son knocked my hydrometer off the table and broke around this time, so I don't have the gravities represented – ABV is around 10% though

Batch Size: 4gallons

12lbs Pale Malt
.50lbs Crystal 60L
.25lbs Chocolate
.25lbs Special B
1.5lbs Honey (not boiled, added during chill)

.50lbs Sultana Raisons (pureed with boiling wort, added last 10min of boil)
1oz Yarrow (30mins)
1oz Wild Rosemary (30mins)
1oz Myrica Gale (30mins)

.25 oz (? I didn't really measure) French Oak Chips in Tertiary

White Labs Bastogne Belgian Ale Yeast


Some Notes:

I felt the 30min boil had just the right impact I was looking for – no reason to add any dried herbs into the fermenter.

The malty sweetness really balanced out the astringency of the herbs, and still came out pretty dry, but definitely balanced, bordering on vinous.

Honey has anti-microbial properties to aid the preservation of this brew and just made sense to me to add, especially over cane sugar (candi or otherwise). I never boil or pasteurize honey by the way

The oak chips really helped this all come together. After the secondary, I was still a little hesitant if I would really enjoy this brew or not, but after 2 weeks on the oak chips I was amazed. The level of oakiness I have is pretty subtle – you have to search to pick it out, but if it was gone you would notice. I think that is the perfect amount for this one.

Finally, the flavors and aromas of the herbs has really seemed to congeal together very well. There is no overpowering or dominating characteristics going on at all. overall balance

I will definitely brew this one again! Sometime, I plan to do a soured version of this and will probably modify the malt bill accordingly, otherwise I wouldn't change anything about this recipe. Its a winner in my opinion.

I'm going to give it some time in the bottles for now and will give some updates once I do an official tasting.

I plan to post more of my gruit/herbed ale experiences here soon and hopefully reinvigorated the gruit discussions.

Thanks for sharing the recipe & experience! I try to do a batch or two of gruit each year, and tweek my recipes a bit each time. I have not tried the oak chips on gruit, and will have to do that next time through!

Where did you get the marsh Rosemary? Or did you use labrador tea? That one was always a bit hard to find...


--LexusChris

got the marsh rosemary and myrica gale both from wildweeds.com

Apparently I was one of the lucky ones who got some this season because I just checked and they're sold out again. They even had maximum purchases of 2oz per order when it was available. Short supply of this stuff! There's plenty of resources to suggest that Labrador Tea is a good replacement though, otherwise contact them and see when their next supply comes in. You can get myrica gale from some homebrew suppliers, but wildweeds is by far the cheapest.

At least 50% of all the beers I brew are gruited (no hops at all). All of them so far have been perfectly drinkable, albeit some were not so thrilling as others. I had always planned to make gruited ales when I started brewing in the first place, so a lot of the learning has been brewing in general, let alone the unknown variables that these herbs bring. Now that I'm more comfortable with brewing with grain, and have enough experience to sort of know what to expect, my gruit recipes are starting to form into something truly enjoyable as well as intriguing.

here's another winning combo

Ginger Sage Juniper Braggot

I was harvesting the sage in my garden when I decided on this one. Its really nice to keep some liquid malt extract and honey stocked in the house for whenever the inspiration strikes, especially for experimenting with herbed beers. Throwing together 1 gallon batches on the stove with simple ingredients is the best way to find out how the herbs behave.

Facts is facts, and I just don't like extract beers myself. However, combining the honey, for me, adds body and character in the form of a simple braggot, a product that I really do enjoy. Plus, if I end up really liking the brew, the honey will ensure that it can be stored and aged to see how the flavors develop over time.


Here's the recipe:

Batch size: 3 gallons

3lbs Pale Malt Liquid Extract
3lbs Wildflower Honey

4-5" fresh ginger root (boiled 45min)
handful wild Sagebrush (is actually an artemesia, not salvia) (30min boil)
couple handfuls dried garden Sage (30min boil)
many sprigs of fresh harvested garden Sage (added to secondary)
50 juniper berries cracked (half added to primary, other half to secondary)

Overall Impression:
This one really turned out great as well, and my friends love it. Even with the simple profile, it has a full mouthfeel and plenty of character. A pleasurable brew for a cold evening. The ginger and sage shine the most, the juniper blended right in, not so detectable. This was one of the first recipes I created that I decided I would actually brew again. This batch holds up for me as is, but I would try some different things in the next one:

First of all, I would skip the honey and go for an all grain recipe that's a bit deeper than a pale ale, maybe a red. Then it could go two ways...

My first thought was that this one should be modeled on a red IPA, keep the ginger and sage, and then actually add a generous amount of American hops like cascade ( my inspiration is the Mammoth Lakes 395 IPA).

If holding true to the gruit style, I would use more sage in the boil (measuring this time) to up the bitters, let it sit on the juniper berries longer (maybe add some juniper twigs to the mash tun Sahti-style), use dried rather than fresh sage in the fermenter (the aromatics are pretty intense in the dried, at least if home-grown), and try to add some high notes in there. What I would desire from hops are the sharp, grapefruit characteristics. I'm not sure what herbs I would use to accomplish this just yet, but am open for suggestions. A combination of chamomile and lemongrass might add some floral citrusy notes, but really aren't that sharp. I have some Sweet Annie (sweet wormwood) that I collected this summer which is highly aromatic (sweet and pungent), a little different than other artemesias. This herb is super potent, so just a couple pinches at flameout would probably do the trick.


More recipes, gruit experiences to come

LexusChris said:

Thanks for sharing the recipe & experience! I try to do a batch or two of gruit each year, and tweek my recipes a bit each time. I have not tried the oak chips on gruit, and will have to do that next time through!

--LexusChris

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Yes yes add the oak chips!

If there was a "make-or-break" ingredient in this recipe, it was the oak. I can't emphasize enough how much it enhanced this brew.

Just put in an herb order - Thanks!

Wait, isn't wild rosemary poisonous?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhododendron_tomentosum

That doesn't say it's poisonous anywhere, just that there are unpleasant side effects from consuming too much.

I love seeing peoples experiences withs gruit ales, I've been brewing them since I started brewing and find the use of herbs other than hops super interesting

The part where it says all parts of the plant contain poisonous terpenes that affect the central nervous system doesn't count?
Also if we're talking about Labrador tea, it contains ledol
http://web.archive.org/web/20070310...Curriculum/Books/Viereck/vierecklabrador.html

Isn't alcohol a poison that affects the CNS?

Read it to fast, sorry.

EoinMag said:

Isn't alcohol a poison that affects the CNS?

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I'm not sure anybody has dosage info on wild rosemary, and the amount of terpenes would vary depending on the growing conditions. I'm just urging caution about combining one known CNS poison with another.

There is a danger that it could be awesome.

You'd probably survive, just don't get tanked on the stuff

rockfish42 said:

You'd probably survive, just don't get tanked on the stuff

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How you gonna know how good/poisonous it is if you don't push it to passing out levels AT LEAST once?
For science and all that.....

What is poison really? Alcohol is considered a poison, but we drink lots of it....otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum right??

There are some poisons that in small amounts, are medicines.

The outer coating on beans and lentils are poisonous which is why they need to be cooked for so long before eating. And this has likely been a staple food for millions of people for many years.

There are factions of nutritionists that believe a lot of common foods we eat contain small amounts of poisonous compounds and are unhealthy (not to mention all the things we consume that we know are poisonous). Technically, any foods cooked on a barbecue contain carcinogens.

Humans aren't the only ones either. There are many animals whose primary diets consist of foods that contain substances that are slightly poisonous to them.

Why would this be a part of nature's design I wonder?

Back to beer.....

To make a beer that is dangerous using any of these "gruit" herbs would require using amounts that would render it completely undrinkable. Remember, we're trying to brew an enjoyable drink, not a waste of money to pour down the drain. No one is talking about brewing a "poison sumac ale" or "amanita mushroom porter". These are flavorings, although there is yes, some slight effects on the brain. Slight is the keyword, most people talking about getting high off beer is hype. In case you didn't know, hops also have neurological and biochemical effects. I've drank 6 packs of strong wormwood ale and felt great - no tripping out or puking my guts out. The effect in my experience, is actually favorable to hopped beer.

Here's a document with details on it's toxicity, feel free to interpret it how you want.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gC...6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Ledum oil toxicity&f=false

rockfish42 said:

Here's a document with details on it's toxicity, feel free to interpret it how you want.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gC...6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Ledum oil toxicity&f=false

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All you need to drink it with is a nice lead tankard, stone drunk mmmmmmm

rockfish42 said:

The part where it says all parts of the plant contain poisonous terpenes that affect the central nervous system doesn't count?
Also if we're talking about Labrador tea, it contains ledol
http://web.archive.org/web/20070310...Curriculum/Books/Viereck/vierecklabrador.html

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of interesting note...found when looking at terpenes..

The aroma and flavor of hops, highly desirable in some beers, comes from terpenes. Of the terpenes in hops myrcene, b-pinene, b-caryophyllene, and a-humulene are found in the largest quantities

Click to expand...

In that very article you've linked, there is more information about the medicinal or therapeutic potential of the plant than the poisonous. There is no doubt that there are toxic constituents, however in plant pharmacology, the distinction between poison and medicine can sometimes be a very fine line. You have to consider the overall value of the plant. Poke weed for instance, is extremely poisonous, however young green shoots under 6" are a tender edible food. Potato plants are fatally poisonous with exception of the tuber. Eating a potato with just a small amount of green from the stem or new shoot could make you seriously ill. Alcohol, remember, is also a poison but we drink it anyway. Why? You can either have a good time with your friends drinking a couple beers, or you can die from blood poisoning. Two very different experiences from the same substance...

I work in a plant-based industry and some of my friends and coworkers are botanists by trade. The one thing I can tell you from the botanist perspective is that poisonous plants are not off limits. Many of the botanists (including Maude Grieves cited in the earlier article) will both characterize the poisonous content of a plant while also describing medicinal uses and suggested ways of preparing it. That seems a little contradictory doesn't it?

If you're not well familiar with a plant, you should do your research. Good job. However, its important to realize that in terms of plant pharmacology, "poisonous" simply describes the characteristics of a plant's volatile compounds. It may be all poisonous, or only a little - mostly beneficial with negative side-effects at only high doses. You have to get the full story and of course, care and caution is highly encouraged.

Marsh rosemary just may not be your thing though. I myself enjoy it in full awareness of the poisonous potential. I already drink coffee and smoke tobacco every morning so why have a double standard?

I understand your point, I'm just counseling caution with the dosage rate. The average person is not going to bother looking up contraindications or realize that they may be pushing their luck with a not well understood gruit herb.

aaronkaz said:

got the marsh rosemary and myrica gale both from wildweeds.com

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Just received my order of wild rosemary, gale, and yarrow today, along with a large bag of heather flowers. Will be making this in a few days using some type of Belgian yeast that I have. If I don't die or whatever from all the evilness in the rosemary, I will post some results.

Just finished brewing 5 gallons of this. Picthed a starter of Wyeast 3787 which is some wildyeast. I am looking forward to at least one blowout on this one.

sacrifice said:

Just finished brewing 5 gallons of this. Picthed a starter of Wyeast 3787 which is some wildyeast. I am looking forward to at least one blowout on this one.

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Nice choice on yeast!

As for the concerns over use of herbs & safety, these herbs & quantities are not really out of line with safe recommendations. Heck, even water is toxic (and people die from drinking too much too fast every year) at some point.

I guess we can just post a disclaimer on our recipes when we use gruit herbs... but do we need to do so when using any other ingredients? Agave syrup? Corriander? Orange peel? Hops? Everything has toxicity levels ... but rarely is it possible to exceed those.

If it sounds dangerous to you, don't use it. If you are curious, research it. Draw your own conclusions.


---LexusChris

BTW, my ale with Wormwood, Sweet Gale & Yaroow Flowers came out awesome!

sacrifice said:

Just finished brewing 5 gallons of this. Picthed a starter of Wyeast 3787 which is some wildyeast. I am looking forward to at least one blowout on this one.

Click to expand...

What recipe did you end up going with?

I added White Labs Sour Mix to a portion of my original batch and set it aside (its still in the carboy now). I don't really think its going to contribute much at this point though, maybe a little brett character. Beers with yarrow tend to turn out so dry and slightly tart that I just don't foresee much change, especially with the gravity that its at the lacto can't do anything.

As an addendum to my original post...I opened up a bottle of this and my suspicions were correct. Carbonation is not appropriate. This particular recipe (and taking into account ABV) turned out so vinous that it really does drink like a wine. I would call it a Gruited Dark Braggot, being that it falls more into the braggot/mead category than a beer. I don't plan on carbonating this final portion either. I'm going to age it and savor it like wine.

With the bottle I opened, I ended up letting it sit on the counter open for a while until it became flat and warm - much better!

I did the gail, wild rosemary, yarrow recipe. I added a bit of mugwort also, about 0.2 oz just for kicks.

It is fermenting at 68 degrees up from 64 degrees the last few days. Krausen (very thick) was a good 8 inches tall in my 9 gallon bucket last night. Almost to the airlock.

I plan on highly carbing this.

I will all add another ounce or so of w. Rosemary when fermentation is complete in order to allow the alcohol to extract more goodies from it.

Sent from my Android using Home Brew Talk

It has been a month and a few days since I brewed this one. Took a taste yesterday after taking the gravity, which was around 1.??? - forgot to write it down, and much to my surprise it was quite nice tasting.

I am going to brew one ounce of gail in one quart of water and add it when cool to allow the alcohol extract more of the gail goodies. Probably bottle a week later with a good level of carbing.

Edited the above to what I actually did: One ounce of medium roast oak in a bit of water - simmered for 10 minutes to sanitize. One-Half ounce Rosemary, NOT gail, in 3 ounces of vodka for 10 minutes, then put in with oak to further sanitize and aid in extraction as the oak cools. Added to primary and will let sit for about a week - depending on tasting. The Oak/Vodka/Rosemary mix smells really great......

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Finally, bottled after 3 weeks of oak and Gail. I planned on bottling after one week but I had chickens (I hatched chicks from eggs) in the garage and they are very dusty with fuzz floating around the air as the fuzz was turning into feathers, and wood chips everywhere (yes, the chicks were in a pen and not running wild in the garage). I figured I would not take the chance of contaminating the Gruit, so I waited until the chicks were outside.

Basically, the Gruit was in the primary for 7weeks and a few days (I added the additional Gail and wood chips directly to the primary). Tasting resulted in a "different" type of taste that was pleasant, and I feel that the addition of the Gail soaked in Vodka came through in a positive manner. The wood is present, but in the background - just a hint of wood.

Finished at 1.017 with an ABV of 9.71%. I can taste the alcohol, but it is not a harsh taste.

Came out with 52 bottles that I carbed to 2.9 as I like bubbles in my beer.

Will let sit for 4 weeks and taste (or maybe 3 weeks ), and am looking forward to how the Gruit will change in the bottle.

Three pictured, but I have 4 - Light Sussex

FYI ... www.wildweeds.com once again has Marsh Rosemary. I just got my 4oz. Already planning on my next gruit brew!


--LexusChris

this recipe looks badass, any info on length of primary/secondary/tertiary?

Fermentation length is really up to you. Especially with the high ABV, I think this is a good one to age. Some people like to bulk age, and some bottle when its done and let it develop in the bottle. I racked from primary after about 7-10 days then let sit in the secondary for about a month before bottling. I generally use a tertiary stage only if I'm adding something to the secondary like dried herbs. I didn't on this one though. Still have a few bottles aging right now.

Opened one up the other night to check it out. Coming along nicely but can't say I was really into it in this hot season. I'm just drinking light, summer ales and lagers right now.

rockfish42 said:

Wait, isn't wild rosemary poisonous?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhododendron_tomentosum

Click to expand...

Actually what they call "poisonous" is actually the fact that many of the things in gruit ale have a "stimulating" or somewhat "narcotic" effect, Many of the herbs used historically, had "psychotropic" or "Psychoactive" properties. In other words they "got you high". The Switch to hops, Many believe, without facts to support or refute mind you was because hops are a sedative, so that the people, and by the people back then i mean everyone, Were "less troublesome", because back then everyone drank Ale, so with everyone drinking hopped ale, they were sedated,even if it was only mildly so. Have you ever noticed, that when you have a few REALLY hoppy IPA's that you get sleepy? That is a known side effect of hops.

aaronkaz said:

Fermentation length is really up to you. Especially with the high ABV, I think this is a good one to age. Some people like to bulk age, and some bottle when its done and let it develop in the bottle. I racked from primary after about 7-10 days then let sit in the secondary for about a month before bottling. I generally use a tertiary stage only if I'm adding something to the secondary like dried herbs. I didn't on this one though. Still have a few bottles aging right now.

Opened one up the other night to check it out. Coming along nicely but can't say I was really into it in this hot season. I'm just drinking light, summer ales and lagers right now.

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cool, just looking for some rough guidelines. OP says add oak in tertiary so i wasn't sure. this, or some derivative thereof, is on my short list to-brew!
PS. best price i found on yarrow was on ebay, $16/lb shipped!

Do you have any health food stores around? many carry bulk herbs so you just get what you need on the yarrow, the others you'll have to order. Wildweeds is the best source to get it all