Direct Grain Purchase - Interesting Correspondance

I wanted to share an email with y'all from a sales rep at Brewcraft USA I just got. I won't comment, just wanted to share as I found his response... interesting.

Let me preface all of this by saying I'm a huge supporter of my LHBS. I've spent a ton of money in there and continue to purchase from there on a regular basis.

That said, the price of base malts (mostly domestic 2-row in my particular case) at the LHBS are quite pricey when compared to some of the other prices mentioned in many of the group-buy threads I was perusing in the classified and group-buy forums. One poster even mentioned that Great Western in Vancouver offered dock sales to homebrewers and that the prices where amazing.

Anyway, I decided to email Great Western and inquire about a large group purchase thinking that maybe if I could get all of the local homebrew clubs to organize one massive purchase, we could order a pallet or something at a great price.

The person I contacted directly at Great Western was super friendly but responded that they don't sell to the public (only to licensed breweries) and directed me to their "Homebrew Supply Division" which is, apparently, Brewcraft USA.

So I email the the guy at Brewcraft with my inquiry, and here's his reply:

We only sell to retail stores. Something to consider when dealing with the stores: their margins on grain aren't very big. You don't save that much by going direct. Almost all stores will also discount full pallet orders even further if you ask.

Also consider. If the stores aren't getting your grain business they may not be there the next brew day when you need yeast, hops, airlocks, corny kegs, bottles, priming sugar and the gazillion other items that are very useful, if not necessary.

Brewcraft supplies both brewers and homebrew retailers. A brewer often doesn't have access to the variety of ingredients you do. They have to contract for specific varieties of hops, they can't get a given brand of Maris Otter in the volumes they have to have. You would be amazed at how often the recipes in some of your favorite beers change. When you drink a beer and think "that's not what I remembered" it's not always your memory that's in question.

We get these inquiries all the time. I feel I should explain that commercial brewers have chased costs down to the extent that 95% of them will tell you they battle their supply chain all the time. They build a recipe around an ingredient that no one can sell at the price they budgeted. They either change their recipe or make diddly on their beer. They'll also tell you they liked brewing a lot better back when they were homebrewers.

Just pay the extra .20/lb and be grateful that in return for that you have access to a catalog of supplies that no one else on the planet has in any given year. I can promise you that extra little bit is buying you a much bigger variety than you'd realize.

Cheers,

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Totally realistic. I work part time at a cigar shop. Malt suppliers selling directly to homebrew clubs is like a cigar manufacturer by passing retailers and selling me 20 boxes of cigars at wholesale price for my personal consumption. I'm all about saving some cash but I can't say that I don't agree. Your money talks and if you and many other customers gripe about grain prices then I see two things happening. 1. They lower the price, 2. They explain that after paying rent, utilities, salary and everything else that's what you get. I know it sucks but what they're saying is about correct. I am an intern at a brewery and they don't have access to the vast amounts of stuff that we do.

"Something to consider when dealing with the stores: their margins on grain aren't very big."

I call BS. When the LHBS is selling grain for $1/lb and you can get it for half that through a group buy, then their margins are quite nice on base grain.

This is nothing new, it's about 6 months old or more....THere's several threads on it...

I even posted recently about it.

My understanding is that unless you were a previous customer of any of the Maltsers (like the Michigan masher's are) you can not buy bulk any more....or buy directly from them unless you are a LHBS.

As this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/north-country-malt-group-stop-selling-homebrewers-191682/ and other threads over the last few months have pointed out, ALL the maltser have stopped selling to new homebrewer customers. Only established customers can still buy for them, and there are stipulations. The michigan masher's group on here does 2 bulk buys a year, but from now on ONLY the two guys who ordered for us in the past few years, who's names are on the account can order for us, AND we must place at least one order a year by the end of Jan. or we will be taken off the "preferred customers" list and will never be able to buy from them again. I think the retailers felt we were undercutting their profits too much and lobbied the wholesalers to stop selling to us. So if you want to buy bulk you have to find an established group doing a buy, like a club or the subgroups on here, and get in through there. There will be no new bulk buys being setup....

Basically all of the malsters are one main group, mid county iirc. This is the notice they are all saying.

Our Craft Brewery customers and Homebrew Store Retailers are encouraged to contact us for additional product and pricing information by calling our distribution location that is nearest you.

Homebrewers, please be sure to ask for our products at your local homebrew supply store or your preferred on-line store.

Thank you for visiting our site. We’ll look forward to servicing your needs.
The County Malt Group

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Teri Fahrendorf to Bagged, me
show details 6:33 PM (2 minutes ago)
Dear Fletcher,

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately our western warehouse system is not capable of handling sales to homebrewers. We recommend you ask your largest local homebrew store if they offer a full-bag discount. Best wishes for homebrewing success.

Cheers,

Teri Fahrendorf
Specialty Malt Account Manager, Country Malt / Great Western Malting
►We're evolving! Country Malt is the Warehouse, Distribution and Sales arm of Great Western Malting Co.
Sales Desk: 800-496-7732 (Jo Heidlebaugh)
Teri's Cell: 360-356-5599

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However, we appreciate the continued business our loyal homebrew customers have given us. With that being said we intend to continue to make our current product line available to our current home brew accounts but we will not be accepting new home brew customers. Homebrew customers who have done business with North Country Malt Supply and Mid Country Malt Supply over the past 12 months can place orders by calling our toll free number (NC: 888-368-5571 - MC: 866-428-1438) or by e-mailing: [email protected].

Thank you for your continued support.

Kelly J. Kuehl - Director of Sales
The Country Malt Group

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There's even a thread on Beer advocate.

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BUT it appears CHicago is getting away with it...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f174/group-buy-chicago-231716/index2.html#post2749314

Even though they are all owned bow by the same company, it seems like it really depends on who you talk to.

But, it's old news on here......And yes it sucks...

Revvy said:

BUT it appears CHicago is getting away with it...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f174/group-buy-chicago-231716/index2.html#post2749314

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That's because Chicago is awesome!

Ace_Club said:

"Something to consider when dealing with the stores: their margins on grain aren't very big."

I call BS. When the LHBS is selling grain for $1/lb and you can get it for half that through a group buy, then their margins are quite nice on base grain.

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I'm with you 100% there... My LHBS charges $80 for a sack of UK 2 Row malt (whole)... I purchased a sack of UK 2 Row malt via the group buy and paid ~$35 for the sack ($30.25 for the grain, a few dollars more for my share of the shipping charges)... So for them to say that the profit margin is small on grain, means they're full of weapons grade Bullonium... OR, they have no idea what some LHBS are charging people... Granted, there are SOME shops that sell the same grain for less, but by the time it's shipped to me, it comes out to the same price. Even before shipping costs are factored, a sack of grain that cost me $39 (Thomas Fawcett Golden Promise) usually costs closer to $65 from a decent online source/vender... That's about a 60% profit/markup on the item... I'm sure they actually have a larger profit margin, since they're purchasing several pallet loads at a time, not just one (like we did)...

Yup, smells like Bullonium to me...

The idea that any individual purchaser ought to gladly pay more so that LHBS's can afford to exist is just ludicrous.

Umm that's how it works in almost any manufacturing type industry and brewing basically is manufacturing. If it were for dealerships you would have a tough time getting cars. If it weren't for stores you'd have a tough time getting washers and dryers. You couldn't get tires, and so forth. It's the business world. I don't like it but I live with it. So if I were you guys so greatly pissed about grain prices then I would either A open your own store to only deal grains/hops or B stop complaining because its not going do so a whole lot.

Well, maybe not gladly but you don't call Nabisco to direct buy a case of cookies either.

I don't mind, so much, paying more than I should on some things... Like the $2.50 they charge for a one pound bag of specialty malt... But to rape me over a full sack of grain, that cost them less than half of what they're charging me? No thanks.

I already don't go to a LHBS (well, sort-of HBS, it's really more a BOP location, that reams you if you buy anything to brew at your own place)... They charge $50 more for a basic starter kit (buckets, etc.) than the LHBS I visit... The super-charging one is a few minutes from where I live (could walk there in under 5 minutes, 10 in a blizard)... I still go to the other one, that's a good ~30 minute drive...

It's part of our duty as customers to shop around... If you're looking to buy in bulk, it's in your best interest to find a vendor/store that offers the product at a reasonable rate... I could understand a ~25% markup to cover costs of storing it and such, but not over 60%...

Bobby_M said:

Well, maybe not gladly but you don't call Nabisco to direct buy a case of cookies either.

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But you should be able to order a pallet load of them if you have enough people that wants them... Or if you will go through them fast enough...

"Standard" retail markup is called "keystone" and it's 50% margin, or take the wholesale cost and double it. That's pretty much what every retail store is making on most items between $20-$1000. Big ticket items are usually lower, like 20-30% margin, and small items under $20 are sometimes 3 to 4 times what their wholesale cost is.

Retail is very capital intensive. Rent and payroll being two of the big expenses. If you add in spoilage, utilities, insurance, etc. I'm amazed that any LHBS can stay in business with ONLY 50% margin.

Maybe if you have free rent, or you're a car dealer, you can stay in business with only a 25% margin, but it would be unprofitable in every other retail business.

smokinghole said:

So if I were you guys so greatly pissed about grain prices then I would either A open your own store to only deal grains/hops or B stop complaining because its not going do so a whole lot.

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None of us are greatly pissed nor are we complaining. The OP asked for our opinion on the letter and we are giving it. Most, if not all of us, shop around for the best deals and get in on group buys to circumvent the huge grain markups of the LHBS.

Can I just clarify that my intent wasn't to ***** about or trash LHBS's for charging what they charge... they get what the market will bear and I support that type of capitalizm (generally speaking) whole heartedly. I also support consumers shopping around for the best price. I choose to purchase lots of stuff from my LHBS because the owner rocks, is super supportive, and does a lot for the brewing community. There's some things, however, I choose to shop around for. As I brew more and more, base grain is becoming one of those things.

That said, the post was more about what I took as a somewhat *****ey tone the guy from Brewcraft took. I thought he could have communicated with his (indirect) customer a bit better. Certainly makes me want to avoid Brewcraft now (though I'll continue to support Great Western as they were quite friendly in their response).

The LHBS rarely gets the lowest possible price on grain; they get the asking price of their wholesalers plus shipping and liftgate charges, etc. Prices of grain have been increasing quite significantly this year. That UK Pale malt costs the store like $45 without adding in any shipping, etc.

The standard formula for a small homebrew shop is to double the wholesaler price for per-pound sales and usually go +50% on bulk items. That's what they need to sell it for in order to stay in business, even without making a significant profit. Freight cost, staffing cost, rent for the store, etc. all need to come out of that margin.

Ace_Club said:

None of us are greatly pissed nor are we complaining. The OP asked for our opinion on the letter and we are giving it. Most, if not all of us, shop around for the best deals and get in on group buys to circumvent the huge grain markups of the LHBS.

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Once again, Ace nails it...

Bulk grain, at the LHBS I visit/shop at, is stored in the basement (it's actually more of a garage level, under the main store) so it's not taking up any retail floor space. I can understand them selling smaller quantities of grain at a larger price per pound (~$2/# in many cases). BUT, if I want to buy a couple of sacks of grain from them, I don't expect to pay full retail prices. Same thing as if I go to a restaurant supplier and go to buy a primal cut of beef. I'm not going to pay the same per pound as I would at the grocery store.

The way the LHBS prices a lot of their items, they charge pretty much what it would cost me to order it online, and have it shipped to me, by itself... BUT, if I put it in with some other items, the cost suddenly gets much better online...

I do understand how retail works. My parents owned a food store when I was growing up. I also know that you can only charge what people are willing to pay. I think if more people pushed back on the prices from the local shops a bit more, they would be more competitive when compared with the online shops. But, until enough people do that, they won't...

Oh, and for a lot of other things, you can typically find the MSRP for something. I've yet to see that for anything to do with home brewing. Well, except for some of the manufacturers that sell direct to people.

It's almost getting to the point where it would make more sense for people (close enough geographically) put in group orders for more things. It should help more people out since shipping per item would [most likely] be reduced...

BTW, I already buy some items direct from distributors (not home brew related unfortunately)... Even then, I shop around to make sure I'm getting the best rate possible...

A good buddy of mine owns an lhbs and he doesn't like that I buy my two-row in bulk, BUT he can't fault me/us for saving a buck....the only thing he REALLY hates is when our bulk buys even end up costing us less than HIS wholesale price, because we're buying 1-2 pallets worth at a time. And he's buying maybe 4-5 bags.

But the thing is, I only buy base malt in bulk, so I'm still buying all my other grains and hops and yeast, and gear retail, so I'm still spending a few hundred with him and the other lhbs I frequent. Since I can get 55 pounds of 2-row for about 32 and he's selling it for iirc 55, in reality I'm only not spending about 33 bucks with them for every bag I might buy.

Cars are different. I don't know how to bypass the dealer. If I did, I'd be rational to do so, so long as it's not too much trouble and I can still get service. Appliances, same thing, or any other manufactured good. If I DO have the option and the inclination to exercise it, I'm not going to be persuaded by some argument that if I don't overpay then I'm not going to be able to run down and get that packet of Notty when I really need it because the LHBS will be gone.

well said... captures my basic paradigm.

Revvy said:

A good buddy of mine owns an lhbs and he doesn't like that I buy my two-row in bulk, BUT he can't fault me/us for saving a buck....the only thing he REALLY hates is when our bulk buys even end up costing us less than HIS wholesale price, because we're buying 1-2 pallets worth at a time. And he's buying maybe 4-5 bags.

But the thing is, I only buy base malt in bulk, so I'm still buying all my other grains and hops and yeast, and gear retail, so I'm still spending a few hundred with him and the other lhbs I frequent. Since I can get 55 pounds of 2-row for about 32 and he's selling it for iirc 55, in reality I'm only not spending about 33 bucks with them for every bag I might buy.

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From working in a LHBS for 6 years, I can understand the thought process behind the response from Brewmart - however he could have worded it a lot differently and get the same point across.

Ultimately, fully supporting your local guy will give you better products down the road, as we do spend a large portion of the money we may, to expand inventory. LHBS are in business because they LOVE home brewing certainly not for the money.

There simply is no way we can compete on the same pricing level that mail order operations do. I've never turned down an honest price match to a loyal customer, and I've never turned down anyone wanting to buy in bulk - that's business. I've gotten used to the people that come in, complain about pricing (not saying you'll are), tell me how they can buy it cheaper online, and THEN ask for the most esoteric item in the world - and wonder why I might not have it in stock.... If you don't spend your money locally, where is the LHBS supposed to get the capital from to buy those odds and ends?

When I visited Asheville this past summer the local businesses all had the same sign hung in the front windows, that I thought sent a solid message. "Love Asheville? Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is, Buy Local". It's not pompous, or out of line I don't think to think that way. Just think about the job you do for a living, whatever it may be, and figure out how many bags of grain you'd have to sell at $10-$15 profit each to equal that pay... It's not a crime to make a profit, if you want a strong economy then everyone needs to make good money on ALL the products they sell, otherwise we'd be supporting a system that bred poverty (see Wal-Mart)..

That's my 2 cents on the subject from seeing it from a few perspectives...

If you own a business, you could probably get away with bulk ordering from one of the big maltsters. With a little support from a homebrew club, you could place a large enough order for base grains. I bet they'll shy away from you if you try to order too much "a la carte" (a single bag of this, a single bag of that). Instead, order base grain by the pallet.

I know it sucks to know you are paying more for something than its worth, but at least with my lhbs, the mark up isn't too outragious and the customer service and support makes up for it. If the mark up is over the top and the teaming outweighs using the shop, then move on, find a good online shop, and share the link with the rest of us!

BlackBetty said:

Ultimately, fully supporting your local guy will give you better products down the road, as we do spend a large portion of the money we may, to expand inventory.

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I'm going to respectfully disagree. I supported my lhbs heavily when I first started brewing buying all my ingredients there. In the past three years, there has been no expanded inventory and I've seen all grain rise to $2.50/lb, Yeast to $9.25 and a quart of Star San to $36. There becomes I point when I can't afford to support it. I still pick up some items there to support it. Do I appreciate the fact lhbs is around if I need to run and get something when I'm in a pinch? Absolutely. Will I pay these prices for all my ingredients to help ensure the convenience stays around? Absolutely not.

I don't know a single person who isn't keen on finding a great deal, but come on guys the people who own our local brew shops have families and hobbies and bills to pay themselves. There is a lot more that goes into a business than just the cost of the product. Is it fair that real estate agents show your house to a buyer and then just take 5% of your sale right out of your hands? Should your barber start living on the street because it technically costs her nothing to cut your hair? Personally I blame wholesalers who are willing to sell directly to the public. It simply shouldn't be allowed. Think about what you do for a living, what your time is worth. If you were the guy buying a pallet of grain from a supplier and counting on local customers to give you a profit so you could eat that night wouldn't you feel just fine charging more than what you paid.

Trust me, if you knew what virtually every product out there actually cost the manufacturer to make it would make you sick. That's life. If you wanna brew cheap, start a business.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I supported my lhbs heavily when I first started brewing buying all my ingredients there. In the past three years, there has been no expanded inventory and I've seen all grain rise to $2.50/lb, Yeast to $9.25 and a quart of Star San to $36. There becomes I point when I can't afford to support it. I still pick up some items there to support it. Do I appreciate the fact lhbs is around if I need to run and get something when I'm in a pinch? Absolutely. Will I pay these prices for all my ingredients to help ensure the convenience stays around? Absolutely not.

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I respectfully will agree to disagree with you as well. Some business owners do not have the best store locations that allow for low rent, electric (most electric co. charge extra 20% for biz locations as do phone/internet providers unless you sign long term contracts) and other overheads. In Florida, our acquisition for yeast from WL and WY is VERY close to $7/pack - unless you order 100+ vials at a time or sign up for one of their "buyback" programs which adds investment on your part as a retailer. I can understand (as a business investor) charging fair prices, what a fair price is isn't necessarily what the next retailer charges because not all business models have the same costs involved. It's unfortunate that your LHBS has not expanded inventory, with the boom in the business, there is ample room for expansion for most. When any business sets prices, we must think about the future, and expansion, and include this in our pricing - it's a golden rule. Perhaps this particular shop was caught up in past debt? Not to rationalize the lack of service, but it can be very hard for the small businessman who doesn't know where he'll get next months mortgage payment from.

I urge anyone with issues with LHBS to talk to the OWNER about your issues in a constructive manner, likely if you have an issue, so do others. Also, there is a good chance the owner might not be aware of it. I can say that at times, I get caught up in writing paychecks, sweeping floors, or inventory, when a customer came in, didn't see an item they needed, but also didn't let me know when I asked if they needed anything. Generally the owner will ALWAYS fix your problem (they should if they want to stay in business). For small business owners, sometimes it is hard to know what the customer actually wants or needs, many customers are rather non-confrontational about problems that exist. Be blunt, but respectful. We will respect you for it. Big corporations have really changed the way we all shop, it's very different in small biz, talking to the owners and giving feedback is needed in small business. Help us out and we'll help you, that's small business

BlackBetty said:

Ultimately, fully supporting your local guy will give you better products down the road, as we do spend a large portion of the money we may, to expand inventory. LHBS are in business because they LOVE home brewing certainly not for the money.

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It's too bad that this has devolved into a "support (or don't) your LHBS", but since it has, let me say: In general I support local businesses. But that bias isn't so strong that I am willing to consistently pay more, inconvenience myself with an unnecessary drive, deal with the frustration of inadequate inventory and have someone decide to sustitute CaraMunich for Munich because they're "interchangeable".

I'm generally much more comfortable dealing with people who are in business to make money and do so, efficiently. Customer satisfaction seems to coincide pretty well with a well-run business and it's the discipline of profit maximizing that tends to make businesses well-run, day-to-day.

I have wasted a good bit of time and money, and spoiled more than one brew day because I tried hard to work with local LHBS's. Let them go the way of bookstores, or cater to those who do business with them for "that personal touch" (get a life).

It's too bad that this has devolved into a "support (or don't) your LHBS", but since it has, let me say: In general I support local businesses. But that bias isn't so strong that I am willing to consistently pay more, inconvenience myself with an unnecessary drive, deal with the frustration of inadequate inventory and have someone decide to sustitute CaraMunich for Munich because they're "interchangeable".

I'm generally much more comfortable dealing with people who are in business to make money and do so, efficiently. Customer satisfaction seems to coincide pretty well with a well-run business and it's the discipline of profit maximizing that tends to make businesses well-run, day-to-day.

I have wasted a good bit of time and money, and spoiled more than one brew day because I tried hard to work with local LHBS's. Let them go the way of bookstores, or cater to those who do business with them for "that personal touch" (get a life).

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I've dealt with multitudes of folks who say almost word for word what is said above. Fact is, you cannot say you support local business and then turn around and say you hope LHBS's go the way of local bookstores and other small businesses - that doesn't make good sense... Off topic, a huge reason why small bookstores went out of business is because the big guys made some ridiculous deals with publishers, authors, etc that provided them with exclusivity and pricing (IF the small bookstores could get the product) that no one could match. Then they reduced their own bottom line by hiring un-knowledgeable, minimum wage, teenagers, (and not enough) staff to provide you with terrible service. THEN when they found out they couldn't sell enough books to meet the contracts they originally signed, they put coffee shops in the stores to provide some more cash flow. When that didn't work, they are now going out of business left and right (See the Borders story).

Folks that are more "comfortable" with big businesses generally are comfortable because they don't have to deal with anything. The wal-marts of the world have changed our perception of what the retail buying experience should be, and made us lazy consumers that don't often think anything about the products we purchase.

Do you REALLY believe that your online supplier is less apt to substitute CaraMunich for Munich? Do you not think they have a minimum wage worker that probably doesn't even brew pulling orders for online? How else could they provide it to you that inexpensively?

If you get robbed by a man wearing a red shirt, do you always avoid men wearing red shirts? If you had a bad experience at a LHBS, please don't hold it against all of us...

I'll reiterate my stance that IF you get to know your LHBS owner and keep a communication line open, you'll have a much better experience. Generally, the unhappy customers locally are the ones that complain outside the store doors, but smile when they walk in. If you have mistrust issues with people pulling your grain, ask if you can pull your own - I let my customers pull grain if they choose, same goes for hops. Help us out, and we'll help you out. I'm sorry you've had such sour luck with LHBS, it is misfortunate.

Another thing to consider is storage space. Those grain bags take up a ton of room, and many homebrew stores simply don't have enough storage to keep a multiple-pallet order. Then, there are, of course, the weevils. Several wholesalers have problems with these, and several maltsters do as well. Once they spawn, the homebrew store generally can't sell that bag and has to write it off for personal use or toss it. Which is another reason many prefer to buy by the bag rather than by the pallet.

I used to online-order exclusively, so I know where you are coming from. Get the card of the owner of the homebrew shop and talk to him/her. They may give you an AHA discount. They may give you a bulk discount. They may explain why their prices are what they are. They can most certainly special order anything their wholesalers carry if you ask them.
Not all homebrew stores are great - some are rude and don't care about their customers, others have employees who don't brew themselves and are plain clueless. But most are just great small businesses who barely break even but still provide a valuable service to the local homebrewing community.
Also consider what else the store provides that you can't get online: Take your beer in to get a proper BJCP-like evaluation. Participate in a brew class. Sample what they may have on tap. Hang out for a bit and get to know other homebrewers in the area. Go into the back and chew the grain and smell the hops.
What are these sort of things worth to you? 10% higher prices? 25%?

If there were a really good LHBS I'd use it. Like I said I TRIED. I tried hard. I do support local business in general (Black Betty, you apparently believe that if I don't support THESE local businesses I don't support local businesses. I won't try to persuade you otherwise). Those that are available to me absolutely do not make it worth it. Those who do make it worth may exist somewhere. I haven't experienced them. Get a BJCP-like evaluation at one of my LHBS's? Not a chance. Participate in a brew class? They'd have to import the talent. Hang out and meet other local brewers? That's what brew clubs are for, and I only pay once, annually. So, what will I pay for the privilege of nibbling before I buy? Nada.

Give me a convenient location, attractive surroundings, friendly atmosphere, competent and respectful service, good inventory and a competitive price and I'll give you my money. Miss on one or more of those and I probably won't. Fair enough?

My guess is that most who are really enjoying success as a LHBS have a pretty strong online and mail-order business.

Well, my LHBS has very decent prices on grains by the pound (of course they are considerably higher than bulk, but they are comparable to the online options), they have a GREAT selection, and they will sell me just about anything in bulk so long as I either call ahead to get it on their next monthly delivery or so long as they have enough in stock to make it to the next delivery. Haven't had an issue yet.

That said, I still bought a bunch of stuff in the Chicago Group Buy because it is still considerably cheaper. Getting UK and German malts by the sack at the cheapest domestic sack prices from the LHBS. That's pretty hard to beat.

I still go to my LHBS for specialty malts when needed, hops that I don't have or need in bulk, small components, etc.

Pilgarlic said:

If there were a really good LHBS I'd use it. Like I said I TRIED. I tried hard.

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It sounds like your local store is particularly crappy. Have you talked to the owner about your concerns though? Did he blow you off, or try to make things right?

My guess is that most who are really enjoying success as a LHBS have a pretty strong online and mail-order business.

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You hit the nail on the head with that comment. If you measure success by money made at the end of the day.

But is it the chicken before the egg? Home brew store opens up, customers come in initially, customers leave to save money online, home brew store opens online store front to make some extra sales, home brew store service goes downhill, remaining customers are unhappy with service and also move to buying online, many owners move to online fronts only. In the end, many wind up buying online.

Is there anything wrong with buying online? Not at all. It reallly REALLLY is upsetting that many online retailers sell products for much less than I purchase them for, and customers automatically assume I am trying to rip them off. But I can't fault the business, as they wouldn't exist if the consumer was happy at a local shop, right? I see both sides of the debate. I completely understand some folks don't want to spend the time to come in and get to know the owners/etc - between kids, jobs, etc - a lot of people don't have the time to drive across town. For those, online stores may well be best.

We try to measure success in our shop on a personal satisfaction level, we're not going to get rich off of selling locally only. There is no way we could possibly sell enough to provide that sort of cash flow with the profit margins involved, it's numbers. I'm not saying we operate off of pity-factor from customers, for some service is worth $$, for others it is not. I do not fault people for not wanting to pay for service, we live in a free country. However, going back to the original thread topic, you cannot expect to buy direct on some items, averting the LHBS and then expect them to be there for you with the cash flow needed to provide inventory. I hope to never have to sell online to make ends meet, I cannot imagine there is any personal satisfaction in that - as your consumers only buy from you for price/speed.

If you tried to give a LHBS your business, and they failed you over and over and over. You did the right thing by going elsewhere. You can't support local businesses blindly, you're correct with that tone. If they truly suck, taking your money elsewhere is how to make them listen eventually. Sometimes small businesses go through phases though, give them a try again sometime and see if they've changed. Maybe they've finally listened?

I bought all of my stuff online....until I did a group buy on base malt. Now I spend all my money local for specialty grains, yeast, hops, books, and whatever. So some LHBS shops should realize that for some cases, they aren't losing and base grain sale, they gain a customer for everything else.

I like my LHBS. It's just too far away. But I rarely order online. I can make it down that way to go to the lhbs enough to buy what I need in ingredients and equipment to last a while now. The store owner has TONS of stuff for brewing, wine, smoking, cheese, etc. They host a Homebrewer Appreciation Day each May. Friday evening they have seminars from brewers and other professionals that cover topics such as hops growing, water chemistry, beer appreciation, how cider is made and tips, etc... Then on Saturday there is a BBQ at a park with homebrewers sharing their craft and breweies donating swag and sometimes beer to sample, and there's games and of course food and more homebrew!

And their domestic 2-row is like $40 a sack. The price difference is not enough to warrant grouping up and screwing the store owner, who puts as much into this hobby as anyone, out of a bit of money.

I'm not saying that all lhbs's can afford to do this sort of thing, but maybe if they looked into putting in a bit more effort, they can attract loyalty like this.

Far different from the store up in TC who has a very limited selection, keeps the hops out of the fridge, and wanted to charge $65 for a sack of grain (And that was HIS price!) Personally, I think someone could do a nice turn by opening a homebrew supply up in TC!

RDWHAHB said:

I bought all of my stuff online....until I did a group buy on base malt. Now I spend all my money local for specialty grains, yeast, hops, books, and whatever. So some LHBS shops should realize that for some cases, they aren't losing and base grain sale, they gain a customer for everything else.

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I said. My lhbs is only out about 32 bucks every 6 months or so....while I still spend a couple hundred there in the interim. And actually I think I brewed several recipes that used either Pilsner or Marris Otter rather than the 2-row I had at home.

I discussed this point a few weeks ago when someone was complaining about an awesome online supplier's "slow" ("slow" because it was not Amazon Prime) shipping times.

Every homebrew supply is a distributer or retailer. They are nothing more than a middle man. Sure, some manufacture a couple items (B3's sculptures for example) but the vast majority of their sales are really resale. Odds are, they are not even a middle man; they are just a link in the supply chain. Briess malts grain. They sell it to a wholesaler. And so it goes, until it is in your mash tun. It was mentioned earlier that a 50% mark up on a lb (or yes, even a sack) at the retail level is "crazy" compared to the price of buying 5 skids of grain direct from a wholesaler. Are you "crazy"? How can you compare the two.

My business deals with pipe. I buy several truckloads of pipe direct from a mill. I get a good price. I buy better than a competitor who is too small to buy right from the mill. Am I supposed to pass along that price break to my customer who wants 1 piece, or do I put it in my pocket? The customer does not dictate that, the market does.

Another thing to remember before crying about prices at the LHBS, or lead times from online retailers.

Price, Availability, Service.
The customer gets 2; the distributer gets the third. You are brewing today, and you need a vial of yeast. What is the most important things at that moment? Availibility and service. So what if LHBS gets $9 for a vial, when Northern Brewer gets 6. Guess what; you can have it for $6 (plus shipping) but you are not brewing it today. So the choice is easy. LHBS gets to keep price. Be happy to have it on the shelf and a guy behind the counter who can answer a question about the ideal temperature for that yeast.

Flip side. Let's say I need a pound of Cascade hops for my next three brews. In this case, I want to keep price and availibility, because those hops add up. I am choosing to give up service. I am going to order from hops direct, and wait two weeks for them to pack and ship. I get price and the hop I need is available, but hopsdirect gets to keep service. Yes, there is a cost to serve, and likewise, good service should be handled as a premium.

That said, walk into an expensive LHBS and find crappy service and empty shelves...then you have a complaint. The solution is still easy. Don't shop there.

Joe

Yeah, I think the maltster's take on selling to homebrewer's directly is their choice, but it sounds like this particular rep was pissed and tired of explaining the situation to people. Not really a cool response, kind of a ****** nozzle.