Would you mind providing feedback on my first hoppy ale?

[p_p]

Hi, I'd like to brew my first hoppy ale and would like your feedback. The recipe is based on an "all day IPA" clone posted in this forum plus influence from my personal taste and some tips I picked up on "can you brew it".

OG: 1.045
SRM: 6

75.0% Golden Prom
7.5% Wheat Malt
5.0% Rolled Oats
12.5% Crystal 30L (reserved)

Single infusion mash at a temperature of 68.5C (155F).
Target mash pH 5.3. Target sparge water pH 5.5.
The caramel malt will be added during sparging.

The plan is to boil for 60 min, plus ~15 min steep when dropping flame-out hops and another ~15 min when a second load of hops is added at ~185F (85C).

Total IBU 45, 75% from boil and 25% from late additions. Hops will be:

Crystal Boil
Simcoe Boil
Amarillo FO @ 98C (26gr)
Crystal FO @ 98C (18gr)
Simcoe FO @ 98C (14gr)
Amarillo FO @ 85C (28gr)
Crystal FO @ 85C (28gr)
Simcoe DH 5 days @ 18C (14gr)
Amarillo DH 5 days @ 18C (20gr)
Crystal DH 5 days @ 18C (28gr)

Yeast will be WLP007 Dry English Ale (starter). Will aim to overpitch slightly and aeration will be done by splashing during transfer. Fermentation schedule is planned roughly as:

Pitch at 17.5C (63.5F)
Let rise to 20C (68F) for ~3 days.
Down to 18C (64.5F) until finished.
Crash at 10C (50F) for 2 days prior bottling.

Water profile is planned to be (ppm):
Ca 100
Mg 20
Cl 25
SO4 250
Na 12


The two main things I noticed when researching commercial "session" hoppy ales is the use of a fairly high percentages of crystal malt and high mash temperatures, which seems to be very different from the advice given when brewing american IPAs and DIPAs.

So what do you guys think am I in the ballpark with this recipe?

thanks for your feedback.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

If you have experience with having your sulfate that high, in the 250 range, and the chloride that low, then I would say go ahead if it fits your tastes. I've found quite often commercial brews that have 250+ are *far* too astringent and dry, but thats my personal experience with sulfate being that high. If you haven't done a brew with that high of sulfate before, I would back off and try 100 for your first attempt and see how hoppy that seems to you.

If your beer finishes low in the 1.010 range the ultra high sulfate isnt needed (the hops will shine because theres not a lot of body/malt/sweetness covering them up).

 

[p_p]

If you have experience with having your S04 that high, in the 250 range, and the chloride that low, then I would say go ahead if it fits your tastes. I've found quite often commercial brews that have 250+ are *far* too astringent and dry, but thats my personal experience with sulfate being that high. If you haven't done a brew with that high of sulfate before, I would back off and try 100 for your first attempt and see how hoppy that seems to you.

Thanks for your comment.

I don't have much experience but I brew a pale ale with ~130ppm SO4 a few months back. I thought it was bland so I dosed with CaSO4 and MgSO4 in a glass to see if it would improve. Took it all the way to 350ppm in 50ppm increments and finally decided that for this particular beer 250 would suit my palate.

I do not know if the conclusions drawn can be transferred to this brew. I don't want to push Cl above what comes in the water. I recall Martin B. stating that Cl >50 with SO4 >250 will result in mineral taste.

 

[JonM]

I recently did an IPA mashed at 155. I really wished I had done it lower. Next time I mashed at 152. Still wished I had done it lower. Next time I'll try 149.

Short version: high mash temps kind of mask the hoppiness.

ETA: my recipe was very similar to yours with the multiple flameout/whirlpool additions.

 

[bkboiler]

I'm not sure where you found that session IPAs have higher crystal malts comparative to others...
that definitely seems counter intuitive..
I'd take a simple grain bill of 2 row and like 10% crystal 20 and mash it low like JonM says. aim for whatever OG you want and first wort hop with a clean bittering hop. then add some hops at 5 and at flameout, and some during a 30-45 min hop stand at 170. then dry hop it.
my experience with session IPAs is they're very dry (low mash temp) and aroma forward, so a long hop stand and heavy dry hop are the way to go!

 

[m00ps]

IMO, way too much crystal, even for a session IPA. Stick to 5% or less. Use flaked wheat/oats/barley for more body. Dont be afraid to try 20% or more

 

[Yooper]

Why add the crystal malt at sparging? That seems really unusual to me, and I'd cut it to 8-10% and put it in the mash. Mash at 152 or so.

Why the oats? That's fine, if you like them, but they are very "slick" and sort of "oily" in a large amount. It seems counterintuitive to me to add wheat malt for head retention and body, and then flaked oats to give an oily, creamy mouthfeel.

I'd definitely reconsider the recipe a bit, and maybe decide exactly what you're looking for before putting the finishing touches on it.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Thanks for your comment.

I don't have much experience but I brew a pale ale with ~130ppm SO4 a few months back. I thought it was bland so I dosed with CaSO4 and MgSO4 in a glass to see if it would improve. Took it all the way to 350ppm in 50ppm increments and finally decided that for this particular beer 250 would suit my palate.

I do not know if the conclusions drawn can be transferred to this brew. I don't want to push Cl above what comes in the water. I recall Martin B. stating that Cl >50 with SO4 >250 will result in mineral taste.

What was the pale ale recipe you brewed a few months back vs. this recipe concept you are working on right now? I am curious about the numbers and hop additions. I have found that with my hoppy beers that it can end up being rather bland if I do *only* flame out additions without doing any 1-10 minute additions (on the reverse side, no flame out you lose all the juicy oily hop character). I had a really good clone of Bell's Hopslam with *very* low sulfate and chloride, 19 chloride and 8.5 sulfate using my city water and no water adjustments, granted it was a butt load of hops, but sometimes its not the water that makes a beer bland its the recipe (not a knock on your recipe cause I have no idea what your pale ale recipe was).

A lot of factors are involved in a 'bland' beer. Low to none malt back bone to support the hop character. High finishing gravity and the body/sweetness is covering up any of the hop character. Overpitching removing any yeast character (there is an acceptable level of yeasty fruitiness for competition entries of pale ales), low yeast fruitiness can support and perk up the hoppiness of a beer (overpowering yeast character of course can destroy a hoppy beer). Mushy hop character (too many varities) or too much/too little at certain parts of the boil you end up with 1-dimensional hop character since different qualities are boiled off or released by the hops depending on a dozen different factors.

TLDR: I would look at recipe before looking at water (if your water is fairly normal as is).

In defense of the OP, I have heard similar comments on podcast from pro-brewers about session IPAs and they do suggest higher crystal malt additions (though I'm going off memory it does sound really familiar).

 

[p_p]

I'm not sure where you found that session IPAs have higher crystal malts comparative to others...
that definitely seems counter intuitive..
I'd take a simple grain bill of 2 row and like 10% crystal 20 and mash it low like JonM says. aim for whatever OG you want and first wort hop with a clean bittering hop. then add some hops at 5 and at flameout, and some during a 30-45 min hop stand at 170. then dry hop it.
my experience with session IPAs is they're very dry (low mash temp) and aroma forward, so a long hop stand and heavy dry hop are the way to go!

I run into these two beers for which the breweries provided recipes. Both have ~15% crystal. Note also the high mash temperatures. I don't know, really (160F in the case of lagunitas!). I appreciate your comment.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=175370
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=178127

 

[p_p]

Why add the crystal malt at sparging? That seems really unusual to me, and I'd cut it to 8-10% and put it in the mash. Mash at 152 or so.

Why the oats? That's fine, if you like them, but they are very "slick" and sort of "oily" in a large amount. It seems counterintuitive to me to add wheat malt for head retention and body, and then flaked oats to give an oily, creamy mouthfeel.

I'd definitely reconsider the recipe a bit, and maybe decide exactly what you're looking for before putting the finishing touches on it.

The recipe is based on this, where several users brewed it and claimed it was very close to the commercial version. I am looking for something in the lines of this beer ... Note crystal is about 12.5% in this recipe.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6198637&postcount=180

I have obviously done some replacements compared to the recipe posted, have I gone totally wrong? What would you suggest to bring it back?

Reserving the caramel malt is mostly so I can put more base inside my mash tun (too small). I know it is unusual, I have been doing it for a couple of brew sessions already and have worked fine so far. (for what is worth I do take in consideration the acidity of the reserved grains and count it towards acidifying the sparge water).

 

[TheMadKing]

So I've got a few comments, but they are mostly opinion based, so take them with a grain of salt.

IMO your hop schedule looks a bit overcomplicated, but without amounts its hard to tell what's really going to happen with the flavor.

I've never seen 2 separate hop additions after flame out (but that's not to say it isn't done, I've just never seen it.) I'm really not sure you'll get much of a flavor difference between two steeps only 10 degrees apart.

I also agree with dropping the oats and reducing the crystal slightly.

You also might want to RAISE the temperature to 70F after 3-5 days in the primary, not drop it. That is a d-rest that will help your yeast clean up their byproducts.

If I'm way off base on any of these comments, I hope some of the more experienced brewers (Yoop and m00ps... I'm looking at you) will correct me

 

[p_p]

What was the pale ale recipe you brewed a few months back vs. this recipe concept you are working on right now? I am curious about the numbers and hop additions. I have found that with my hoppy beers that it can end up being rather bland if I do *only* flame out additions without doing any 1-10 minute additions (on the reverse side, no flame out you lose all the juicy oily hop character). I had a really good clone of Bell's Hopslam with *very* low sulfate and chloride, 19 chloride and 8.5 sulfate using my city water and no water adjustments, granted it was a butt load of hops, but sometimes its not the water that makes a beer bland its the recipe (not a knock on your recipe cause I have no idea what your pale ale recipe was).

A lot of factors are involved in a 'bland' beer. Low to none malt back bone to support the hop character. High finishing gravity and the body/sweetness is covering up any of the hop character. Overpitching removing any yeast character (there is an acceptable level of yeasty fruitiness for competition entries of pale ales), low yeast fruitiness can support and perk up the hoppiness of a beer (overpowering yeast character of course can destroy a hoppy beer). Mushy hop character (too many varities) or too much/too little at certain parts of the boil you end up with 1-dimensional hop character since different qualities are boiled off or released by the hops depending on a dozen different factors.

TLDR: I would look at recipe before looking at water (if your water is fairly normal as is).

In defense of the OP, I have heard similar comments on podcast from pro-brewers about session IPAs and they do suggest higher crystal malt additions (though I'm going off memory it does sound really familiar).

Your post is very interesting, thanks for that.

The pale I brewed before had only one bittering addition of Magnum, and 2+2oz Cascade at FO 100°C and 85°C. There were no 5-1 minute additions. The base recipe was 98% Golden Promise and 8% Crystal 30L. Based on my perception, IBUs were about 35, I would say.

So this recipe is quite similar but I wanted to make it hoppier and closer to the recipe that other forum users have considered an "All day IPA" clone:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6198637&postcount=180

I cannot say I understand what each one of the malts are contributing, I am still a fairly inexperienced brewer having done 5 batches only so I don't really know if adding those oats is a mistake or if should cut the crystal.

I am sure about what I heard in the podcasts, I've been listening to these two podcasts for the last few days trying to pick up on tips for my brew. They definitively mash high and use 15% crystal. I have not tried either of these two beers (Lagunitas IPA and Stone Levitation), but I hear these two brewing companies are well respected so I expect they know what they are doing.

 

[p_p]

So I've got a few comments, but they are mostly opinion based, so take them with a grain of salt.

IMO your hop schedule looks a bit overcomplicated, but without amounts its hard to tell what's really going to happen with the flavor.

I've never seen 2 separate hop additions after flame out (but that's not to say it isn't done, I've just never seen it.) I'm really not sure you'll get much of a flavor difference between two steeps only 10 degrees apart.

I also agree with dropping the oats and reducing the crystal slightly.

You also might want to RAISE the temperature to 70F after 3-5 days in the primary, not drop it. That is a d-rest that will help your yeast clean up their byproducts.

If I'm way off base on any of these comments, I hope some of the more experienced brewers (Yoop and m00ps... I'm looking at you) will correct me

Well, I am confused now!

(edited) I added the quantities. Based on what I have heard and read, the 85°C addition as to the 100°C should extract different oils. I don't know... I think I read first in the madfermentationist blog and then in Mr. Strong latest recipe book. I am sure I have come across this a few times, but hey I am just blind follower, cannot say that it works.

 

[TheMadKing]

Well, I am confused now!

Oh sorry, I certainly didn't mean to confuse you! to clarify, I would move your second 185F steep to a 5 minute addition in the boil if that helps?

and raise the temp to 70 for say 3 days before cold crashing at 50.