Windsor Yeast - Bad Rap??

[Morrey]

I recently brewed my standard recipe Cream Ale with US-05, and the OG went from 1.048 way down to an FG of 1.003. This left me with a dry beer that is crisp but a bit high ABV to enjoy several after doing yard work and chilling out. This put me on a search to either reduce my OG or shift to a lower attenuating yeast.

It was suggested to try Windsor and keep my recipe the same. I would potentially be getting a less ABV beer that maintains a nice mouthfeel and full flavor while finishing at perhaps 1.015 or around that area.. I thought this was a win-win and got a sachet of Windsor to try on my next Cream Ale.

BUT, I have read nothing but negative reviews of this yeast. Most of what I am reading is slamming the low attenuation characteristic of this strain (which is what I wanted) but not much else about this yeast seems favorable to home brewers either. Now I am second guessing my choice to use this yeast.

For my intended use....to create a lower ABV with my same recipe...would I be better served to lower my grain bill and keep on with US-05, or give the Windsor a try?

 

[jwalk4]

Windsor is a fine strain, but as with all danstar products, rehydrate as per their instructions.

I like Windsor when brewing malt forward beers, i dont know about a cream ale.

 

[Morrey]

True. I know it would be well suited for an ESB or the like, but I agree with your Cream Ale questioning.

 

[cnotts]

From a taste perspective it is a good product, but a word of warning - it can be an absolutely terrible flocculator (in my experience) or a great flocculator (based on other reviews I have seen).

I did some research and found that reviews of its flocculation varied so widely and didn't seem to correlate with a certain style, my suspiscion is that certain batches are just different to others, potentially a quality control thing manufacturer side?

I currently have a best bitter made with Windsor which was absolutely opaque after 2 weeks fermentation and is barely any better after 2 further weeks of cold crashing, even after using irish moss in the boil.

 

[Morrey]

I think your comments also support the question marks surrounding the use of this strain. Will it finish at 1.020 or will it be 1.010? Will it drop clear or remain cloudy? I think that is what is what has raised the red flag with this yeast compared to other strains who have much more predictable track records.

 

[ericbw]

I've never used it, but I think it's not quite right for a cream ale. I think US-05 shouldn't go that low. Have you brewed this recipe before with different results? What was the usual final gravity? It could be an "infection" with some wild yeast or bacteria taking it a little lower than you wanted.

 

[cnotts]

My only concern would be the flocculation. The comments I read on attenuation seem to more be users not expecting that lower level of attenuation that is normal with this yeast and then complaining their FG was too high, when it was just representative of the strains attenuation (in the majority of cases).

With proper usage, it performs consistently around 70% attenuation for me (albeit exclusively in English ales, never tried something as light as a cream ale with it)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To go from OG = 1.048 to FG = 1.003 requires yeast with apparent attenuation on the order of a whopping 93.5%. Did your grain bill include sugar? I doubt that sort of attenuation is possible with malts. They are just not that fermentable.

 

[dyqik]

I've just brewed an English brown with it (although I probably should have used Nottingham), so I'll let you know what I find when I keg this weekend.

Flocculation characteristics can be driven by water chemistry etc., in particular, calcium in the yeast cells is required for flocculation at beer (acidic) pH levels. Too little calcium in the water, or too much sodium (which replaces calcium in the yeast cells) can prevent flocculation. It's possible that Windsor is particularly sensitive to that, which could explain the mixed reports.

Checking my Bru'n'water file, I should have moderate sodium (24 ppm) and reasonable calcium levels (61 ppm) in the water, plus whatever the malt brings with it.

 

[Morrey]

I've never used it, but I think it's not quite right for a cream ale. I think US-05 shouldn't go that low. Have you brewed this recipe before with different results? What was the usual final gravity? It could be an "infection" with some wild yeast or bacteria taking it a little lower than you wanted.

This may be quite possible, Eric. I do use brett strains and it is somewhat likely that brett found its way into my clean beer.

I use a Tilt and noted the Cream Ale started slowly and seemed to take forever to drop down. After 8 days at 67F it had gotten down to 1.008 so I considered it done and quit logging the Tilt in the cloud. I regularly leave my beers in primary for a full two weeks as I did with this beer. When I racked off to keg I always do a test of Tilt vs traditional hydrometer which gives me calibration values. Both agreed the FG was 1.003. So in the remaining week, I dropped from 1.008 down to 1.003. This sounds like brett to me, but I cant smell or taste anything brett like. As mentioned, I do a few brett beers here and there so cross contamination is quite possible.

The beer is obviously quite dry compared to the cream ale on tap which is the same recipe and both with US-05. This beer is drinkable but not quite as smooth as the normal ones I keep on tap. I think you may have hit on something so I'll take that fermenter aside and use it exclusively for brett from this point forward.

 

[cnotts]

I've just brewed an English brown with it (although I probably should have used Nottingham), so I'll let you know what I find when I keg this weekend.

Flocculation characteristics can be driven by water chemistry etc., in particular, calcium in the yeast cells is required for flocculation at beer (acidic) pH levels. Too little calcium in the water, or too much sodium (which replaces calcium in the yeast cells) can prevent flocculation. It's possible that Windsor is particularly sensitive to that, which could explain the mixed reports.

Checking my Bru'n'water file, I should have moderate sodium (24 ppm) and reasonable calcium levels (61 ppm) in the water, plus whatever the malt brings with it.

I didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense. My water is pretty empty mineral wise (Ca ~50ppm, Mg ~15ppm, CACO3 ~90ppm, next to no Chlorine) so that sounds like it is contributing maybe.

Although, I have never had a significant flocculation problem with any other strain, so I'd suggest I'm only partially exacerbating a problem that the yeast strain already has.

 

[Morrey]

@dyqik makes a good point ^^^^ above in that calcium is vital to the good health of yeast cells. I've used yeast nutrients as well with good results.

Your point is valid in that only Windsor is showing issues while all other strains flocculate normally, and this is assuming your water remains consistently at the numbers you stated.

 

[rkzi]

You can also consider London ESB, a newish dry yeast also from Danstar. It's maybe bit more balanced to hoppy side than Windsor. I've used both Windsor and London ESB now once and I liked them both. Just remember to mash low to get them to attenuate properly.

In my last brew I used 1728 Scottish ale in an American amber. That seems to be also a quite good substitute if you want something with maybe bit less attenuation and better flocculation than US-05

 

[mattdee1]

I've had decent results from Windsor in a stout, but I have also used it in a very basic 2-row/Magnum SMaSH and was not a fan. To be fair, it's more of a taste thing... I think the yeast was doing what it promised, I just found that I'm not crazy about its character in that sort of simple quaffer-beer context. Compared to the other half of that batch that used Bry-97, the Windsor half was very estery and fruity.

 

[dyqik]

I kegged my version of the BCS Northern Brown fermented with Windsor this evening. I pitched at 67F, ramped to 70F over 4 days, then ramped to 72F over 9 days before crashing to 38F for 48 hours.

It dropped pretty clear as far as I can tell with a brown, and looked somewhat flocculated in to clumps, although not the cottage cheese of WLP002.

Google photos link to yeast cake: https://goo.gl/photos/QxGcbCaefD7p3kn57

It finished at 1.017 from an OG of 1.056, for not very great attenuation, although my mash had several issues that might have messed up the fermentability, and my MO grain is now two and a half years old.

Tasting the sample, I'd say Windsor is the wrong yeast for this style, but might work in a mild or southern brown. I probably should have used Nottingham...