Why does my Saison taste Sweet?

[aidan]

I've made my first Saison and I'm a bit baffled as to why it's tasting sweet given that my FG was a very low 1.002 (lowest FG I've ever got to). To be honest I'm not even quite sure what a Saison should taste like as I've never had one before but I believe it's supposed to be dry. My recipe was:

Grain Bill
5.700 kg Pilsner (80.85%)
0.500 kg Munich II (7.09%)
0.450 kg Cane Sugar (6.38%)
0.400 kg Wheat Malt (5.67%)

Hop Bill
10.0 g Waimea Pellet (17% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Waimea Pellet (17% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
30.0 g Waimea Pellet (17% Alpha) @ 1 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
50.0 g Waimea Pellet (17% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (2.1 g/L)

Yeast: Mangrove Jacks M27 Belgian Ale (Saison) yeast
Calculated IBU: 30

I mashed low 64C (147F) to make a highly fermenatable wort. I fermented it warm (following advise from a podcast on brewing Saisons) - started at 24C (75F) and ramped up to 31C (88F) by day 4. My OG was 1.066 and FG was 1.002 which puts ABV at just over 8% so could it just be an alcohol sweetness that I'm getting? Or could it be compounds from the yeast that make it seem sweet? Or not enough bittering? The beer tastes fine and it grows on me as I drink it but it's not what I expected for a style that's supposed to be dry. And with such a low FG, frankly I'm a bit baffled. I'd be interested to hear from brewers familiar with the Saison style.

 

[supermoth]

You might be perceiving the fruity yeast esters as sweet. Also, how well carbonated is the beer? Saisons are usually pretty bubbly, which contributes to the perceived dryness. 30 IBU seems like a good level of bitterness in my opinion, and your final gravity is good for a saison.

 

[aidan]

You might be perceiving the fruity yeast esters as sweet. Also, how well carbonated is the beer? Saisons are usually pretty bubbly, which contributes to the perceived dryness. 30 IBU seems like a good level of bitterness in my opinion, and your final gravity is good for a saison.

Thanks for your input supermoth. I carbonated in the bottle with bulk priming adding enough priming sugar to carbonate to around 2.5 volumes which is typically what I use for most of my beers. It's been in the bottle for 2 weeks and seemed pretty well carbonated when I opened a bottle last night. I know some say to wait 3 weeks but with such an aggressive yeast as M27 I'm pretty sure the yeast has finished feeding on the priming sugar by now. I don't think any of that sweetness I percieve is from priming sugar.

 

[Quaker]

Assuming it's not the carbonation level or priming sugar, then I'm guessing it's recipe related, not process. Twice now I've heavily used late hops with a mild bittering addition and sensed a sweet final product despite low final gravity. Calculated you have 30 IBU, but my perception is that IBUs coming from late additions don't seem equivalently bitter. Alcohol can also be perceived as sweet. My IPA I'm drinking now has that issue. It finished where I expected, has high calculated IBU, but much was from late additions and it tastes sweet.

 

[pjj2ba]

Is the beer still cloudy? I like to use white labs 566 and find that this yeast tastes sweet, making an otherwise low FG beer that should be dry, taste sweet. I had a keg of a big saison that was tasting very nice and was pouring clear. I had to move my kegs around jostled the saison keg up so the next few pints were cloudy - and sweet! When the beer cleared, the sweetness went away

 

[aidan]

Assuming it's not the carbonation level or priming sugar, then I'm guessing it's recipe related, not process. Twice now I've heavily used late hops with a mild bittering addition and sensed a sweet final product despite low final gravity. Calculated you have 30 IBU, but my perception is that IBUs coming from late additions don't seem equivalently bitter. Alcohol can also be perceived as sweet. My IPA I'm drinking now has that issue. It finished where I expected, has high calculated IBU, but much was from late additions and it tastes sweet.

You might be on to something there Quaker. The Waimea hops are a new NZ variety with a very high alpha - 17% - so I was cautious about over-bittering and went light on the 60 min addition. But according to my calculator 10g @ 60mins should have provided 18 IBUs which I would have suspected would be enough to balance the sweetness, but I could be wrong... Maybe for a higher OG beer you need more IBUs even if the FG is low? or maybe IBU calculators get it wrong for higher gravity wort.

 

[aidan]

Is the beer still cloudy? I like to use white labs 566 and find that this yeast tastes sweet, making an otherwise low FG beer that should be dry, taste sweet. I had a keg of a big saison that was tasting very nice and was pouring clear. I had to move my kegs around jostled the saison keg up so the next few pints were cloudy - and sweet! When the beer cleared, the sweetness went away

Interesting. But mine is crystal clear. Yet it may be something to do with the esters given off by the yeast. Anyone else have experience with Mangrove Jacks M27 Belgian Ale yeast?

 

[-Matteo-]

I was wondering: how did it evolve during these months?

I have a same kind of problem: a saison that tastes not dry at all, despite a really low F.G. and its moderate bitterness...

77% Pilsner
8% Wheat Malt
7% Flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Rye
1% Sugar

Hallertauer Mittelfruh (60 min) - 12.2 IBU
Amarillo (20 min) - 11.3 IBU
Galaxy (0 min) - (? IBU)

O.G. 1.056
F.G. 1.001
7.2% ABV

Fermented with Lallemand Belle Saison at 75-77°F.

I tasted several beers with some kind of sweetness derived from a long hop stand, or beers with lower IBU and higher F.G. that don't taste so cloyingly sweet, so I dont think that's the reason...

This beer tastes as the opposite of "dry", and I'm baffled, since it finished at 1.001!!!

I think the problem might be the temperature of fermentation, but the fact is the beer smells REALLY good, and it doesn't have excessive esters...

 

[aidan]

I was wondering: how did it evolve during these months?

I have a same kind of problem: a saison that tastes not dry at all, despite a really low F.G. and its moderate bitterness...

77% Pilsner
8% Wheat Malt
7% Flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Rye
1% Sugar

Hallertauer Mittelfruh (60 min) - 12.2 IBU
Amarillo (20 min) - 11.3 IBU
Galaxy (0 min) - (? IBU)

O.G. 1.056
F.G. 1.001
7.2% ABV

Fermented with Lallemand Belle Saison at 75-77°F.

I tasted several beers with some kind of sweetness derived from a long hop stand, or beers with lower IBU and higher F.G. that don't taste so cloyingly sweet, so I dont think that's the reason...

This beer tastes as the opposite of "dry", and I'm baffled, since it finished at 1.001!!!

I think the problem might be the temperature of fermentation, but the fact is the beer smells REALLY good, and it doesn't have excessive esters...

Hi Matteo, time seems to have made a positive difference - it does not have the sweet taste any more (or maybe I just got used to it and don't notice it). But anyway it is a reasonably 'big' beer so benefits from some time to mature. I think it is an OK beer with an interesting Belgian yeasty thing going on, a bit too strong from my liking at over 8% (can't drink much of it or I get pissed quickly), but some of my friends really love it and I only have 2 bottles left. So definately age most of it for at least a few months before drinking it and save a few bottles to taste 1 year later.

 

[Beeru]

Bumping this super old thread because I recently had a similar thing. My saison ended up being 8.6% just due to the efficiency being higher than expected.

A quick cheat to somewhat fix this is to add a little acid blend to cut through some of that sweetness. I just added a tsp at a time to my keg, and after about1.5Tbls it was at a nice level. Of course, this won't help much if you bottle it.