White Labs selling old Brett (maybe more generally).

[Gadjobrinus]

I like working with Label Peelers and have tried twice to get the WLP 645, the B. claussenii. The first time there was a considerable delay as WL wasn't sending out according to what they were telling LP. After several weeks, LP said it was in. When I asked them what the expiration was, it had one month to go before expiring. I took a pass.

I just inquired again, and they said it was in stock, with an expiration of May 18.

Don't know if I'm being a tool, but providing this, especially given the higher price v. Omega, Imperial or Wyeast, doesn't fly with me.

Anyone else finding this amiss, or have I missed something? Buying Omega B. claussenii, btw.

 

[Bobby_M]

When a shop orders from white labs, the packages get heat sealed off the next day and shipped out via 2 day air. The best by dates on those packs vary by a few weeks but for the most part they are 6 months after that. I have not seen any variation to this fact since everything shifted to the Pure Pitch or Pure Pitch Next Gen (capped pouches) format. There was a time when they had prepacked vials and they'd be of various ages. I'm not trying to throw any vendors under the bus here, but the way you're describing it, I don't think you're getting 100% transparency.

There are some cases where a retailer doesn't have an ideal motivation to go directly to WL for a full order. If one needed one strain for a customer, they may be best getting it from LD carlson or Brewmaster (morebeer's wholesale division) and those are going to be older.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

When a shop orders from white labs, the packages get heat sealed off the next day and shipped out via 2 day air. The best by dates on those packs vary by a few weeks but for the most part they are 6 months after that. I have not seen any variation to this fact since everything shifted to the Pure Pitch or Pure Pitch Next Gen (capped pouches) format. There was a time when they had prepacked vials and they'd be of various ages. I'm not trying to throw any vendors under the bus here, but the way you're describing it, I don't think you're getting 100% transparency.

There are some cases where a retailer doesn't have an ideal motivation to go directly to WL for a full order. If one needed one strain for a customer, they may be best getting it from LD carlson or Brewmaster (morebeer's wholesale division) and those are going to be older.

Thanks for the post, Bobby. It's always really helpful to get the perspective of a business owner such as yourself. FWIW, I was rather surprised that this was their reply:

19 days (out of 91 days) past the halfway point is not what I would consider well past the halfway point and is well within the acceptable range of the manufacturer. However, your preference for fresher yeast is entirely up to you. White Labs is the Industry Standard for liquid yeasts for beers. We sell 5 to 1 White Labs versus Oemga and I have not had any complaints from our homebrew customers about their results.

Take care,

To which I replied:

[....], I'm basing the time signature on 6 months expiry, which puts it at 4 months from November 18, yes? Perhaps I'm wrong...:I have a lot of respect for Chris White. But his move away from retail to some extent and playing catchup, in many ways, with Imperial, etc., in providing higher yeast counts, at a higher price, wasn't the best move. As to White Labs's 5 to 1 margin, and "industry standard" status, I won't dispute you of course and White Labs was the only yeast I bought - since their inception, as I've been brewing since the early '90's, including time at Goose Island in Chicago. All I can tell you is that I'm not alone - comments like "White labs finally catching up the other companies (Imperial/Omega/Escarpment) on cell counts, and are gonna gouge the consumer, Great time to move on! I stopped using White Labs ages ago, so many better options...." are anecdotal admittedly, but somewhat representative from what I've come across.

At any rate, thanks for the information [....] and this isn't a hate White Labs exchange. I'll take it under advisement.

 

[Bobby_M]

White Labs definitely thinks very highly of their yeast which is obvious based on their pricing. Sure, they've been around a long time and probably has the most brand recognition between their age and relatively aggressive marketing in BYO, Zymurgy and elsewhere. 5 to 1 is a pretty surprising ratio. I just looked and I sell 2 to 1 Omega over WL, but in fairness I only switched from Wyeast to WL as my "incumbent" yeast lab 3 years ago while I've sold Omega since they opened. A lot of this stuff is going to vary regionally. I'm able to sell Omega at a lower retail price because the packs cost less and my per-pack shipping cost is about a third as much IL to NJ vs CA to NJ.

I think the selection between the two often comes down to strain exclusivity (for those in the know) or strict adherence to recipe (for those that don't know or care that there is strain ubiquity across labs). I don't really want to get into arguments about who's version of what has genetically drifted into a different strain. I primarily brew with liquid yeasts and have not noticed any appreciable difference between any of the labs for my favorite strains.

To really see where you're getting your value, it's best to consider your actual yeast pitch needs via calculators. White Labs has one advantage of staying really viable even when the pack is quite aged. A WL pack that starts at 145B cells only drops to about 100B in 6 months. An Omega pack that starts out at 200B cells, will drop to 100B cells in about 2 months. This all doesn't matter much if you're a sophisticated liquid yeast user, equipped to make a starter. It's best to assume you'll need one and then be pleasantly surprised to find that you don't because the pack is super fresh.

I've worked out the math several times and it's almost never enough to use one pack of anything and in that case Omega is almost always the better value whether you double up the packs or make a starter with one. I get $14 for WL and $9 for Omega. If they're both a week old, Omega would be enough for a 1.055 OG Ale but the WL would not. If they were both 2 months old, neither of them would be good for a direct pitch, and they'd both have enough cells to support a 1L starter. Why pick $14 when you can pick $9?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

White Labs definitely thinks very highly of their yeast which is obvious based on their pricing. Sure, they've been around a long time and probably has the most brand recognition between their age and relatively aggressive marketing in BYO, Zymurgy and elsewhere. 5 to 1 is a pretty surprising ratio. I just looked and I sell 2 to 1 Omega over WL, but in fairness I only switched from Wyeast to WL as my "incumbent" yeast lab 3 years ago while I've sold Omega since they opened. A lot of this stuff is going to vary regionally. I'm able to sell Omega at a lower retail price because the packs cost less and my per-pack shipping cost is about a third as much IL to NJ vs CA to NJ.

I think the selection between the two often comes down to strain exclusivity (for those in the know) or strict adherence to recipe (for those that don't know or care that there is strain ubiquity across labs). I don't really want to get into arguments about who's version of what has genetically drifted into a different strain. I primarily brew with liquid yeasts and have not noticed any appreciable difference between any of the labs for my favorite strains.

To really see where you're getting your value, it's best to consider your actual yeast pitch needs via calculators. White Labs has one advantage of staying really viable even when the pack is quite aged. A WL pack that starts at 145B cells only drops to about 100B in 6 months. An Omega pack that starts out at 200B cells, will drop to 100B cells in about 2 months. This all doesn't matter much if you're a sophisticated liquid yeast user, equipped to make a starter. It's best to assume you'll need one and then be pleasantly surprised to find that you don't because the pack is super fresh.

I've worked out the math several times and it's almost never enough to use one pack of anything and in that case Omega is almost always the better value whether you double up the packs or make a starter with one. I get $14 for WL and $9 for Omega. If they're both a week old, Omega would be enough for a 1.055 OG Ale but the WL would not. If they were both 2 months old, neither of them would be good for a direct pitch, and they'd both have enough cells to support a 1L starter. Why pick $14 when you can pick $9?

That's excellent info, thanks Bobby. Yes, I always build from pretty substantial starters (typically, 2.5 liters for ale, 5 liters for lagers), unless the yeast is really fresh (in which case I'll pitch a whole pack into 1L, typically. lagers and high-gravity ales are always at least a 2-step from pack to 5L.). I have many slopes, and there, I go loop-10-100-500-2500 or 5000.